UK UK - Claudia Lawrence, 35, York University, 18 March 2009 - Chef - #2

[MajorLang]

Just a few thoughts after recent posts .....( Ive dipped in and out of the case over the last few Months after attempting to catch up. I have a fair overview but I dont know the details as well as you guys so ...forgive if unhelpful)

Top of my head....

When Dark Guy goes out of cctv shot before reappearing, on both vids, is that the Alleyway indicated by the start of the Pink line on the overhead shot of houses etc?

The time off camera seems incredibly short on both occasions ( 1m 08s on 7pm one....approx 49s on 5am) to be reaching a destination down the Alley? Or doing anything too meaninful?

Is he checking if a light is on ( someone at home) both at night and to see if its changed in morn? I.e. Has CL ( or another resident) gone out and stayed out? Why may he or someone want to know this?

Theres no way he could be checking his/a vehicle?

Is he meeting someone coming from the other end of the Alley( Pub) to exchange something out of sight? Or someone from a house along the Alley to exchange something?


Im not convinced that it is 100% certain ,in the 7pm cctv, that he stops his return to the main road due to the person crossing the junction. He seems to react late . ( maybe checking his phone or keys then sees him?) Or maybe unrelated to guy and stops to check phone, keys etc? Especially as it seems he doesnt leave a huge timegap before rejoing the main road and potentially still visible/audible to the other guy who has just passed?
Also doesnt seem overly concerned about being spotted by any of cars passing on Main Road? ( slightly contradictary as this could also indicate that it is indeed the passing guy that he knows and therefore wants to avoid?

A simple piss stop x2?!


Does he arrive with the supposed bag he may be carrying when leaving?

Are these the only occasions he appears on that cctv around that month year etc?

I have always thought that he was there to "watch the alleyway" for a few seconds only. I think he stopped because he may have known the light jacket guy as a Nags Head regular or as you say just stopping to check something out.
Light jacket man and dark man being in both cctv shots morning and night would suggest they are working together

 

[Yozzer]

Bolting her back gate maybe. Could do with those photos of police in Claudia's back garden to get a look at the security situation.

 

[MajorLang]

What was he doing at 5am tho?

As I said if one was the landlord and in the morning it could be after he finished his shift as a train carriage cleaner. But the evening. One also appears to be him. What is more relevant is the guy I short light jacket on both CCTV shots morning and evening. 2 people on both CCTV and both same people. Police can't dismiss one and not the other -Very dark

 

[Yozzer]

Some alley way pics here
Police Search for Claudia Lawrence

 

[Kiri]

I wonder if there were other poi's/suspicious activity seen on this cctv that the police have actually not revealed that gives a slightly fuller picture of what happened? - details of which they haven't released for operational reasons/keeping things up their sleeves like police do?...They now really need to get to these men also featuring on cctv as they may be the alibis/witnesses/look outs etc - perhaps they are the key to the wall of silence!?! Ie "games up...we know you were there...we know what happened..we'll charge you with something if you don't tell us exactly what else occurred" type of thing Hmm. Unless NYP tells us more it is hard for us to assist I feel! So frustrating!

 

[MajorLang]

I wonder if there were other poi's/suspicious activity seen on this cctv that the police have actually not revealed that gives a slightly fuller picture of what happened? - details of which they haven't released for operational reasons/keeping things up their sleeves like police do?...They now really need to get to these men also featuring on cctv as they may be the alibis/witnesses/look outs etc - perhaps they are the key to the wall of silence!?! Ie "games up...we know you were there...we know what happened..we'll charge you with something if you don't tell us exactly what else occurred" type of thing Hmm. Unless NYP tells us more it is hard for us to assist I feel! So frustrating!

@Kiri. I would say that this is the most accurate summary so far of what happened
Great work I can't believe that there wasn't more footage that would ah e told the story in greater detail.

 

[Spy Versus Spy]

@Kiri. I would say that this is the most accurate summary so far of what happened
Great work I can't believe that there wasn't more footage that would ah e told the story in greater detail.

I may be misunderstanding but if the pair are working together then why would Dark Guy feel obliged to 'avoid' him on the Junction on the Evening?

Also, Im not convinced now after looking at the street layouts that the Alley was neccessarily involved?

Could he infact have been parked on the street ? Gone to car to get something or check something? Parked there to avoid being seen in the Pub carpark? Could he infact have stayed overnight?

Ive read somewhere that lots of dna of individuals were in CL's house despite those individuals denying ever having been there at any time? Is this accurate?

 

[moonsafari]

I may be misunderstanding but if the pair are working together then why would Dark Guy feel obliged to 'avoid' him on the Junction on the Evening?

Also, Im not convinced now after looking at the street layouts that the Alley was neccessarily involved?

Could he infact have been parked on the street ? Gone to car to get something or check something? Parked there to avoid being seen in the Pub carpark? Could he infact have stayed overnight?

Ive read somewhere that lots of dna of individuals were in CL's house despite those individuals denying ever having been there at any time? Is this accurate?

GREEN - where cam shot ends
RED - where alley begins
34secs - approx furthest he can walk before having to turn back (out of shot 1m8s)

 

[moonsafari]

I may be misunderstanding but if the pair are working together then why would Dark Guy feel obliged to 'avoid' him on the Junction on the Evening?

Also, Im not convinced now after looking at the street layouts that the Alley was neccessarily involved?

Could he infact have been parked on the street ? Gone to car to get something or check something? Parked there to avoid being seen in the Pub carpark? Could he infact have stayed overnight?

Ive read somewhere that lots of dna of individuals were in CL's house despite those individuals denying ever having been there at any time? Is this accurate?

This is brilliant CL /Reddit

 

[Spy Versus Spy]

This is brilliant CL /Reddit

Thanks ms.

That is what I read that led me to the questions in the first place!

There's no grntee that he's taken the Alleyway , once he left the cctv line of vision though?? He could have checked something out on the Road across/past the Alley?

 

[Spy Versus Spy]

View attachment 190851

GREEN - where cam shot ends
RED - where alley begins
34secs - approx furthest he can walk before having to turn back (out of shot 1m8s)

Thanks a lot ms...got a better picture in my head now

 

[moonsafari]

Thanks ms.

That is what I read that led me to the questions in the first place!

There's no grntee that he's taken the Alleyway , once he left the cctv line of vision though?? He could have checked something out on the Road across/past the Alley?

Yes that's what I mean w/in 1m8s - he could've walked to a parked car/van like you said, walked to C's backgate to check for lights on/check for/attach lock, walked round alley bend to check for lights then halfway to HP house to do the same/signal to someone, walked all the way up to HP house (even if Ruane's not involved tenants could be and met C through landlord/pub. If students were on holiday, potentially house/s could have be empty)

The old couple who say they saw C in heels early am 19th in/near their garden - can anyone post the relevant Gone extract? Looking at the backgardens of PR's HR property looks like a few are intertwined/open. Oddly, Google won't list the exact address of the larger detached property on Forest Grove behind HR property

 

[moonsafari]

 

[MajorLang]

Thanks a lot ms...got a better picture in my head now

@Spy Versus Spy I don't believe that the dark figure stopped because he saw guy in light jacket.
The excellent graphics and timings from the Reditt poster suggest that they were two persons working together
Light man keeping watch of Limes / Heworth place entrance and possibly front of CL house
Dark man either going to following locations:

Watchman for alleyway
Rear of CL house
Rear of 15 Heworth Place
Front of 15 Heworth Place

It is highly likely that 15 Heworth Place was an empty property but under ownership potentially of one of POIs at the time.

Dark man stopped because if he had continued to keep walking he would have ended up catching up to Light man and then they definitely would be implicated together.

Sleuths.
It feels like we are getting uncomfortably close to what Police MAY already know. This is likely to be the evidence that is not sufficient to allow CPS to level charges?

 

[MajorLang]

@Spy Versus Spy I don't believe that the dark figure stopped because he saw guy in light jacket.
The excellent graphics and timings from the Reditt poster suggest that they were two persons working together
Light man keeping watch of Limes / Heworth place entrance and possibly front of CL house
Dark man either going to following locations:

Watchman for alleyway
Rear of CL house
Rear of 15 Heworth Place
Front of 15 Heworth Place

It is highly likely that 15 Heworth Place was an empty property but under ownership potentially of one of POIs at the time.

Dark man stopped because if he had continued to keep walking he would have ended up catching up to Light man and then they definitely would be implicated together.

Sleuths.
It feels like we are getting uncomfortably close to what Police MAY already know. This is likely to be the evidence that is not sufficient to allow CPS to level charges?

Where did the two men go next? If they continued walking along Heworth Road they would be picked up on CCTV at crossroads
If they doubled back they would be seen again by Limes camera.

Did they come from or seek refuge in one of Perps houses or indeed the Nags head?
Or, did they sit waiting in a car in Nags car park with something in the boot that they could move safely in the light of day when there was more traffic and their car would be one of hundreds with a legitimate reason for being in area or passing through.

For me, it would not be difficult for police to narrow down a small number of vehicles using CCTV at both Limes and cost cutters to establish which vehicles started their journey from the area on Heworth and out of sight of cameras.
They probably will have done so??

 

[MajorLang]

@Spy Versus Spy I don't believe that the dark figure stopped because he saw guy in light jacket.
The excellent graphics and timings from the Reditt poster suggest that they were two persons working together
Light man keeping watch of Limes / Heworth place entrance and possibly front of CL house
Dark man either going to following locations:

Watchman for alleyway
Rear of CL house
Rear of 15 Heworth Place
Front of 15 Heworth Place

It is highly likely that 15 Heworth Place was an empty property but under ownership potentially of one of POIs at the time.

Dark man stopped because if he had continued to keep walking he would have ended up catching up to Light man and then they definitely would be implicated together.

Sleuths.
It feels like we are getting uncomfortably close to what Police MAY already know. This is likely to be the evidence that is not sufficient to allow CPS to level charges?

We also know that Light man and Dark man were seen in evening at around 7pm doing similar things. This time Dark man didn't need to slow down as light man was on opposite side of road.

 

[MajorLang]

@Spy Versus Spy I don't believe that the dark figure stopped because he saw guy in light jacket.
The excellent graphics and timings from the Reditt poster suggest that they were two persons working together
Light man keeping watch of Limes / Heworth place entrance and possibly front of CL house
Dark man either going to following locations:

Watchman for alleyway
Rear of CL house
Rear of 15 Heworth Place
Front of 15 Heworth Place

It is highly likely that 15 Heworth Place was an empty property but under ownership potentially of one of POIs at the time.

Dark man stopped because if he had continued to keep walking he would have ended up catching up to Light man and then they definitely would be implicated together.

Sleuths.
It feels like we are getting uncomfortably close to what Police MAY already know. This is likely to be the evidence that is not sufficient to allow CPS to level charges?

15 Heworth Place was empty at time of Disappearance of CL. It was listed for best offers by 6th February 2009. It was eventually sold in July 2009. The property was sold on behalf of the relative of a member of staff????? Do we know anyone of perps or POI's who was connected to Estate Agents. It is likely that this house that backed onto Alley and was directly oposite CL house was empty on 18/19th March 2009. If Police were conducting a door to door, would they have discounted this house as no one lived there?
Only if they were conducting a search of empty houses would they search this house??

 

[MajorLang]

I may be misunderstanding but if the pair are working together then why would Dark Guy feel obliged to 'avoid' him on the Junction on the Evening?

Also, Im not convinced now after looking at the street layouts that the Alley was neccessarily involved?

Could he infact have been parked on the street ? Gone to car to get something or check something? Parked there to avoid being seen in the Pub carpark? Could he infact have stayed overnight?

Ive read somewhere that lots of dna of individuals were in CL's house despite those individuals denying ever having been there at any time? Is this accurate?

I believe that if your DNA was found in someone's house and you had previously denied being there then that would be classed as Perverting the course of justice and you would be a huge suspect

 

[moonsafari]

Where did the two men go next? If they continued walking along Heworth Road they would be picked up on CCTV at crossroads
If they doubled back they would be seen again by Limes camera.

Did they come from or seek refuge in one of Perps houses or indeed the Nags head?
Or, did they sit waiting in a car in Nags car park with something in the boot that they could move safely in the light of day when there was more traffic and their car would be one of hundreds with a legitimate reason for being in area or passing through.

For me, it would not be difficult for police to narrow down a small number of vehicles using CCTV at both Limes and cost cutters to establish which vehicles started their journey from the area on Heworth and out of sight of cameras.
They probably will have done so??

I'm not sure. The costcutter CCTV only seems to cover the path so fairly easy to avoid even if walking. Knowledge about CCTV also a factor in all this. Perhaps consulting a CCTV map would be a good idea (if such a thing exists)

 

[MajorLang]

I'm not sure. The costcutter CCTV only seems to cover the path so fairly easy to avoid even if walking. Knowledge about CCTV also a factor in all this. Perhaps consulting a CCTV map would be a good idea (if such a thing exists)

@moonsafari Yes I have done this. It hasnt changed much since 2009