Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #108

[tresir2012]

Kelsie had been out and about with Libby two previous weekends as recounted in one of her Renner interviews IIRC.

 

[tresir2012]

Re the sketches, we have LE saying OBG is no longer a POI, NBG is the face of BG, BG is somewhere between the two and he appears younger than he is.

(ETA they also clarified age as mid 20's to 30's )

So putting that altogether means we could have someone at the lower or higher end of the age range who looks younger.
So who is mid 20's to 30's but appears younger? Well that is BG.

I think. MOO.

 

[Spy Versus Spy]

Re the sketches, we have LE saying OBG is no longer a POI, NBG is the face of BG, BG is somewhere between the two and he appears younger than he is. So putting that altogether means we could have someone at the higher end of the age range who looks younger.
So who is 30's but appears younger? Well that is BG.

Dont forget the mid 20s to late 30s clarification too? Which tallies with your figure.

The audio fits that age imo also.

Eta. Corrected upper age range

 

[JudgeJudi]

First rumor: Some say her grandfather did it.

“When we go to the beach, he wouldn't let us go past our ankles because he was worried about us getting eaten by sharks. That’s how kind and caring he is. That's the kind of person people are saying could do something like this, and that is crazy to me,” Kelsi said.

Kelsi's comment is just her opinion as to how kind and caring her grandfather is, but it doesn't debunk the vicious rumour that he was the killer. However, the podcast from TheMurderInMy Family on August 4, 2018 with Mike and Becky Patty certainly does:

They were asked if they wanted to discuss any of the rumours.

MP said there were a lot of people who thought that he was the killer. He said where he works at a place in Lafayette he has to “badge in twice and I’m on video camera to get in there and you’ve got to badge out to get to leave, and again, I’m on video camera”.

Kelsi is also a hero IMO for using all the means at her disposal to raise awareness of this shocking crime. What a wonderful sister she is.

http://themurderinmyfamily.com/episode-6-liberty-german-and-abigail-williams-the-delphi-murders/

ETA: Link added

 

[Justice101]

still following... read up to this point...

 

[JudgeJudi]

1) We have no idea if law enforcement actually has DNA;

“At every crime scene, you are going to have DNA. We are still working on identifying all of the DNA that we have there,” said Sgt. Holeman.

Lead detective in Delphi murders confirms police have more audio from phone, DNA evidence

 

[JudgeJudi]

Far too many people think that if LE have DNA that can positively identify someone, that alone will be enough to secure a conviction. That isn’t the case.

Whether your DNA found at the crime scene is enough evidence to convict you was the question in a recent Court of Appeals case. The defendant was convicted of burglarizing a Santa Ana nail salon based solely on DNA evidence. He appealed the judgment, claiming that there wasn’t enough evidence linking him to the crime scene to support his conviction.

Convicting a person on criminal charges requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant did in fact commit the crime. DNA evidence found at the crime scene doesn’t necessarily implicate you without other corroborating evidence.

While DNA evidence may be considered the same as a fingerprint, and can link a suspect to a crime, a criminal conviction requires much more. The criminal justice system depends on irrefutable proof that the defendant was not only present when the crime was committed, but also that he or she in fact committed the crime.

The Court in this case was asked to weigh the question of whether DNA is such convincing evidence, that nothing else matters. The court said No.

https://www.southerncaliforniadefenseblog.com/2014/06/dna_evidence_left_at_the_crime.html

Obviously the bar will be significantly higher when the charge is murder. I believe this is the reason why LE keep saying they just need one more piece of the puzzle, and I'm praying that they get it.

 

[SilentRogue]

“At every crime scene, you are going to have DNA. We are still working on identifying all of the DNA that we have there,” said Sgt. Holeman.

Lead detective in Delphi murders confirms police have more audio from phone, DNA evidence

That "confirmation" was the quote "at every crime scene..." and it is hardly enough to conclude that they have DNA of an assailant.

When he says "at every crime scene, you're going to have DNA", he doesn't mean that every criminal is going to leave behind DNA.

When he says "we are still trying to identify all of the DNA we have..." he doesn't mean that this criminal left DNA we are working to identify.

A crime scene such as this one is going to be huge. They're going to keep every sock, can, empty bag of chips, or cigarette butt they find at that scene just in case its relative to the killer.

So, to clarify, we have no idea if Law Enforcement has DNA of the perpetrator(s) or even DNA they believe could be the perpetrator(s).

Finally, as you mentioned after, DNA works to place a person at a scene. It is evidence of presence, not crime. For example, if a woman is sexually assaulted, they'll have DNA from the assailant - it puts him with that woman. Other evidence, such as victim statements, defensive wounds, etc... along with the DNA, work to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the individual committed a criminal act.

Now, earlier, you used the word *irrefutably*, to describe the burden of proof in a criminal case. This is not accurate. Beyond a reasonable doubt is not beyond any doubt. Rather, doubt can be (and often is) present in any criminal conviction.

It really comes down to the jury and whether they collectively decide that doubt is reasonable. You'd actually be quite surprised how much doubt is necessary to be beyond reasonable.

Finally, and most importantly, if law enforcement has DNA of the assailant I think we can safely count on a conviction at some point. DNA is excellent evidence to present to a jury - not of a crime, but of a person's presence. Once law enforcement has zeroed in on an individual with DNA, building a circumstantial case is remarkably easy. For example, they could present witnesses to say he frequented the trail, witnesses to attest to his propensity for violence, evidence supporting his behavior after the crime, evidence showing that he wasn't at work that day, a friend remembering he had a 9 mil that they'd shot together on multiple occasions but he denies having now or ever owning, or testimonial evidence from his spouse/friend/roomate that he we threw away knives and bought new ones around the time of the murder.

DNA and circumstantial evidence is more than enough to convict. Rather, circumstantial evidence alone is often all you've got and is often enough to bring a conviction.

Believe it or not, a jury is quicker to convict on a murder than they are on a shoplifting case.

 

[tresir2012]

That "confirmation" was the quote "at every crime scene..." and it is hardly enough to conclude that they have DNA of an assailant.

When he says "at every crime scene, you're going to have DNA", he doesn't mean that every criminal is going to leave behind DNA.

When he says "we are still trying to identify all of the DNA we have..." he doesn't mean that this criminal left DNA we are working to identify.

A crime scene such as this one is going to be huge. They're going to keep every sock, can, empty bag of chips, or cigarette butt they find at that scene just in case its relative to the killer.

So, to clarify, we have no idea if Law Enforcement has DNA of the perpetrator(s) or even DNA they believe could be the perpetrator(s).

Finally, as you mentioned after, DNA works to place a person at a scene. It is evidence of presence, not crime. For example, if a woman is sexually assaulted, they'll have DNA from the assailant - it puts him with that woman. Other evidence, such as victim statements, defensive wounds, etc... along with the DNA, work to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the individual committed a criminal act.

Now, earlier, you used the word *irrefutably*, to describe the burden of proof in a criminal case. This is not accurate. Beyond a reasonable doubt is not beyond any doubt. Rather, doubt can be (and often is) present in any criminal conviction.

It really comes down to the jury and whether they collectively decide that doubt is reasonable. You'd actually be quite surprised how much doubt is necessary to be beyond reasonable.

Finally, and most importantly, if law enforcement has DNA of the assailant I think we can safely count on a conviction at some point. DNA is excellent evidence to present to a jury - not of a crime, but of a person's presence. Once law enforcement has zeroed in on an individual with DNA, building a circumstantial case is remarkably easy. For example, they could present witnesses to say he frequented the trail, witnesses to attest to his propensity for violence, evidence supporting his behavior after the crime, evidence showing that he wasn't at work that day, a friend remembering he had a 9 mil that they'd shot together on multiple occasions but he denies having now or ever owning, or testimonial evidence from his spouse/friend/roomate that he we threw away knives and bought new ones around the time of the murder.

DNA and circumstantial evidence is more than enough to convict. Rather, circumstantial evidence alone is often all you've got and is often enough to bring a conviction.

Believe it or not, a jury is quicker to convict on a murder than they are on a shoplifting case.

IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, and Liberty (Libby) German, 14/The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #87

Take a look at this post and link from Jan 2019. It will take you to post 129 on thread 87.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Now, earlier, you used the word *irrefutably*, to describe the burden of proof in a criminal case. This is not accurate.

I did not use the word "irrefutable". That was a quote from the article. "Our criminal justice system depends on irrefutable proof that the defendant was not only present when the crime was committed, but also that he or she is, in fact committed the crime".

You'd actually be quite surprised how much doubt is necessary to be beyond reasonable.

No, I wouldn't be surprised at all. That's quite an assumption on your part as you know nothing of my background.

Neither do I need to have circumstantial evidence explained. I followed the entire Henri van Breda case on WS where he was found guilty of murdering both his parents and brother and was guilty of the attempted murder of his sister. This trial lasted 66 days. DNA evidence alone took one week, but he was found guilty on circumstantial evidence alone.

 

[soylattesandsleuthing]

In response to Kelsi saying she had refused to drive the girls to other destinations earlier in the week—

If BG was posing as someone their age and had arranged to meet them, could these other trips have been attempts at meeting up with him? It would be interesting to know where Libby wanted to go (someplace public?) and how many times she asked. My understanding is that she was an active person, so maybe she was just bored and wanted to get out. Just some thoughts and MOO.

 

[TL4S]

This is a post by @MistyWaters back in May that I just ran across while running a search. BBM

(Just a clarification, LE have stated the words were spoken during criminal activity, not shortly before. It was the video that was described as “about to occur”.

“She also captured a man's voice saying "down the hill" during what police call "criminal activity.”
DELPHI: Premature to link St. Louis attack

“German’s quick thinking in the face of fear prompted Indiana State Police Sgt. Tony Slocom to pronounce her a “hero.” That young lady is a hero, that is no doubt,” Slocom told reporters. “To have enough presence of mind to activate the video system on her cell phone to record what we believe is criminal behavior about to occur, there is no doubt in our mind that she is a hero.”..”
Why Police Have Not Released Details on the Murders of Libby German and Abby Williams from Delphi, Indiana)

So, as I interpret what MistyWaters was showing, the bolded part makes me think the audio "down the hill" part is not a continuation of the video. To me that means the audio was made completely separate, at a later time. How much later, we don't know, but clearly only minutes later, as other sources have said the video was within minutes of their death.

I've also read, but don't have a link, that LE said the murder itself was not recorded. Anyone?

If that's true, than why wasn't it? My phone only records for 1 minute intervals, but I know nothing about iPhones. And when Libby's dad was trying to call her, has it ever been stated whether the phone went right to voicemail, as in the phone was off already, or did that happen later?

I'm just wondering what happened to the phone and recording. Did it just stop, and the phone died, did it get wet, did it get smashed? Unfortunately, I'm guessing none of this information is public knowledge...

 

[Yellow Rose]

Always praying today is the day that justice reigns supreme

 

[Charlot123]

I know... I was one of the early posters asking for understanding on why the cell phone seemed to be pinging all over town. Kelsi is doing a great job with her YouTube Q&A... she is so young. For anyone interested, it’s still going on and you can start it from the beginning. Go to YouTube and search Kelsi German.

I am in the minority about Kelsi’s YouTube Q and A. She did well, but I never suspected anyone of her family to start with, so I heard nothing new there.

But - I have to say it - the photo of her dog in New Balance shoes and her allusion to 23@me site did not sit right with me. I stopped listening then and there.

I hope that Parabon is/will be involved, and I wish them good luck.

We need to catch this maniac.

 

[tresir2012]

This is a post by @MistyWaters back in May that I just ran across while running a search. BBM

(Just a clarification, LE have stated the words were spoken during criminal activity, not shortly before. It was the video that was described as “about to occur”.

“She also captured a man's voice saying "down the hill" during what police call "criminal activity.”
DELPHI: Premature to link St. Louis attack

“German’s quick thinking in the face of fear prompted Indiana State Police Sgt. Tony Slocom to pronounce her a “hero.” That young lady is a hero, that is no doubt,” Slocom told reporters. “To have enough presence of mind to activate the video system on her cell phone to record what we believe is criminal behavior about to occur, there is no doubt in our mind that she is a hero.”..”
Why Police Have Not Released Details on the Murders of Libby German and Abby Williams from Delphi, Indiana)

So, as I interpret what MistyWaters was showing, the bolded part makes me think the audio "down the hill" part is not a continuation of the video. To me that means the audio was made completely separate, at a later time. How much later, we don't know, but clearly only minutes later, as other sources have said the video was within minutes of their death.

I've also read, but don't have a link, that LE said the murder itself was not recorded. Anyone?

If that's true, than why wasn't it? My phone only records for 1 minute intervals, but I know nothing about iPhones. And when Libby's dad was trying to call her, has it ever been stated whether the phone went right to voicemail, as in the phone was off already, or did that happen later?

I'm just wondering what happened to the phone and recording. Did it just stop, and the phone died, did it get wet, did it get smashed? Unfortunately, I'm guessing none of this information is public knowledge...

All we know is when the items from her phone were released. The SC posts at approx 9 pm on the 13th and the still and audio on the 15th and 22nd respectively. In between these last two dates was the search at BBR on the 16th. I often wondered if they found the phone at that search, tossed out a vehicle window, because they were searching in a field near the property as well as in the property and they cleared the residents IIRC. Because these items were not issued immediately, then I believe the phone took a while to recover and it was damaged when it was recovered. Hence the delay in issuing the stills and audio. They were also waiting to see if he came forward first before issuing the audio. AJMO.

 

[ScumbagTrav]

In response to Kelsi saying she had refused to drive the girls to other destinations earlier in the week—

If BG was posing as someone their age and had arranged to meet them, could these other trips have been attempts at meeting up with him? It would be interesting to know where Libby wanted to go (someplace public?) and how many times she asked. My understanding is that she was an active person, so maybe she was just bored and wanted to get out. Just some thoughts and MOO.

It's not unusual for a teen, or anyone to want to go places...in the winter...when there is less to do because of the weather. My 4 year old gets restless/cabin fever. So a teen asking to go places is likely just that: a teen asking to go places. I know u are speculating, but I'm not sure why or what it would mean to closing this case.

 

[soylattesandsleuthing]

It's not unusual for a teen, or anyone to want to go places...in the winter...when there is less to do because of the weather. My 4 year old gets restless/cabin fever. So a teen asking to go places is likely just that: a teen asking to go places. I know u are speculating, but I'm not sure why or what it would mean to closing this case.

I never said it was unusual. In fact, I said that since she was an active person it could very well just be that she was trying to go out and do something. I was theorizing that maybe she was trying to meet up with someone she met online, and perhaps it would be helpful to look at any changes in her normal patterns the days leading up to the murders.

 

[Spy Versus Spy]

This is a post by @MistyWaters back in May that I just ran across while running a search. BBM

(Just a clarification, LE have stated the words were spoken during criminal activity, not shortly before. It was the video that was described as “about to occur”.

“She also captured a man's voice saying "down the hill" during what police call "criminal activity.”
DELPHI: Premature to link St. Louis attack

“German’s quick thinking in the face of fear prompted Indiana State Police Sgt. Tony Slocom to pronounce her a “hero.” That young lady is a hero, that is no doubt,” Slocom told reporters. “To have enough presence of mind to activate the video system on her cell phone to record what we believe is criminal behavior about to occur, there is no doubt in our mind that she is a hero.”..”
Why Police Have Not Released Details on the Murders of Libby German and Abby Williams from Delphi, Indiana)

So, as I interpret what MistyWaters was showing, the bolded part makes me think the audio "down the hill" part is not a continuation of the video. To me that means the audio was made completely separate, at a later time. How much later, we don't know, but clearly only minutes later, as other sources have said the video was within minutes of their death.

I've also read, but don't have a link, that LE said the murder itself was not recorded. Anyone?

If that's true, than why wasn't it? My phone only records for 1 minute intervals, but I know nothing about iPhones. And when Libby's dad was trying to call her, has it ever been stated whether the phone went right to voicemail, as in the phone was off already, or did that happen later?

I'm just wondering what happened to the phone and recording. Did it just stop, and the phone died, did it get wet, did it get smashed? Unfortunately, I'm guessing none of this information is public knowledge...

bbm
Re Murder not on Audio.

Think it was Sheriff Leazenby in the Renner vids?

Moo

 

[crazychris]

As I said earlier. I'm in London, UK. Everyone I mention this case to, unless they've seen it mentioned on a forum or here or Reddit, has never heard of it. It was mentioned in a thread on a big forum, Digital Spy, recently, about unsolved crimes. When I tell them that they have a pic taken by one girl of a man on the bridge and audio too, they just can't believe he hasn't been caught. I explain that it's not a clear pic and they've only released 3 words. Wonder if this would have been solved if it had been in a smaller country like here in the UK, with the pic and audio. Not criticising the US investigators at all.

As a man myself, and I don't mean to praise the evil killer in any way, but I think he was very brave to take on TWO girls. People I mention the case to say the same. Why not let them go and wait for just one as one's much easier to overpower? What if one had been selfish and left her friend and got away and could identify him? He must have been armed with a gun or knife to feel that confident. Doubt I'd take on two teenage girls as these weren't little helpless kids, but teens who surely will fight back, but then am not a monster or a rapist or killer. Anything could have gone wrong from his point of view. In fact it did as she got audio and a pic of whom we assume is the killer.

We lost our 22 year-old daughter, only child, last year to SADS, sudden adult death, so we know what those poor parents will be going through. Imagine living in a small town too where you could pass the killer any time and not know it. Think I'd go mad.

 

[tresir2012]

I always get the impression the UK has more CCTV than the states. Apart from Libby's video, no other Delphi cameras caught him at all it seems. You would think at the very least, Mears might have cameras if they had people opposite their entrance at all times of the day and night.