CA CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #4

[LilacRocket]

Do you believe that they would continue to send people out in dangerous heat for 9 days without something at all pointing to her being in the area?

This sounds reasonable to me. They were going by what the husband said and at face value it looked like a case of a couple on vacation who stopped to take a walk/take pictures and became separated.

A search of the surrounding area would be the first logical step and given the size of the area we're talking about combined with the temperatures they are dealing with, I don't think 9 days is an unreasonable amount of time for them to be searching...

I agree with Hatfield, they would have been obligated- from a legal standpoint at the very least- to conduct a thorough search of the area.

 

[chihuahua]

SBM

Fantastic! Can I ask why you’d think she’d prefer that? Apparently she often wore her bikini and was very comfortable dressed that way. The official photo was of her in the bikini because that is how she was last seen and how she was dressed.

I ask because those items may be relevant to identifying her (red cap, black bikini top) and people often glance at the pic, and don’t read.

I included the clothing description and will add the photo in the bathing suit top.
I am a female myself who is very careful of the pix I share with truckers and other professional drivers on the road via all means possible.
I want the right people informed, and I guess I will put more thought into which pic I share of this missing woman.

Thanks for your thoughts, and in general , I agree.
Chi

 

[Hatfield]

Do you believe that they would continue to send people out in dangerous heat for 9 days without something at all pointing to her being in the area?

JMO
Yes so long as nothing surfaced evidence wise to point them in a different direction. I suspect the 9 days was about the maximum length of time someone could possibly stay alive in that desert area with no food or water. So I am assuming they only called it off once the "standard" amount of liveable days someone could possibly survive out there with no food or water and in that high heat.

In the Paul Miller case, if I remember right, it was close to those same number of days too before his "official" search was called off. Other volunteer searchers continued to search on their own as they had time but the official search was called off about the same number of days. I believe they use hard statistics to know when there is no hope someone could stay alive in the conditions without food or water.

 

[glamourkitty1922]

The heat on the day in question was 104-105 according to earlier posts.[/QUOTE

I don't think the Mojave Desert has been that cool at noon since June. This is a hotter than average summer and it's over 100 at 10 am. But it does matter exactly where they're at. It was 117 about 30 miles away towards the east and it was 107 about 30 miles away towards the north and it was 110 about 20 miles north from Kelbaker Rd according to accuweather. It was 110 in Bagdad California which is to the south. I'm a weather buff.

 

[Curiousobserver]

Do you believe that they would continue to send people out in dangerous heat for 9 days without something at all pointing to her being in the area?

I think they would so long as they didn't have evidence she wasn't there. BTW, I think it is completely appropriate to confirm all of the milestones in the process of a person going missing without implying anything regarding anybody's guilt- When/where was the last independent evidence of the missing person's location and condition.

MOO- police have looked at the camera/photo's that were taken that day and do have some reason to believe that BT was at that location that day. The next milestone is to fill in the gap between the last confirmed evidence of her location and the time the police where called and the time they arrived.

Was the gap 30 minutes or 6 hours?

 

[MsBetsy]

he should offer an incentive if he believes what he is saying, something he could follow through on.

no charges, no questions is a bit fairytale for me.

unless, as suggested, he knows more about the 'abductors' and what happened that day than we are being informed

Yes, that's why I asked if he had been putting up flyers or enlisting others to help put up posters in that area in order to help find her.

 

[chihuahua]

Will amend to this

Still missing.Missing: 7-12-19
Barbara Thomas, 69, of Bullhead City, has no supplies or cell phone, San Bernardino County sheriff’s officials wrote in a statement.
She was last seen wearing a black bikini, a red baseball cap and tan hiking boots with black socks while hiking with her husband, the release says. Barbara is 5"9 - Slender Build - Hair -White - Geen Eyes
The couple had been hiking in an area 20 miles north of Interstate 40 east of Kelbaker Road when they became separated at 2:30 p.m., deputies wrote. Anyone with information is urged to call the San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department's Colorado River Station at 760-326-9200 or Sheriff's Dispatch at 760-956-5001.

 

[dbdb11]

I mean... it's more about the last point. If you really think that RT is involved somehow, and you don't think LE is listening, contact the District Attorney's office. Their job is putting criminals behind bars. If there is justice to be done here, they can help make it happen.

LE have listened to everything i’ve Shared with them. Will consult detectives before going over their heads.

 

[GordianKnot]

Thanks so much for being a VI here.

This is JMO based on other cases.

The fact that LE organized a ground search of the area would not necessarily mean they have any way to prove she was there. Once LE is told information verbally from a husband that person X was at location Y, there is a duty for them to investigate the claims and so long as they had no initial reason to doubt the person then I could see where they would undertake a formal search of the area. Legally its very important because of their role and they want to avoid any potential lawsuits later if they had doubted his story and not searched. So they pretty much had to search no matter if they had proof or not that she was there.

Then they are protected from a legal standpoint that they did all they could.

Fantastic post! Beautifully stated.

LE had to do their due diligence and conduct a thorough search of that location based on RT's verbal report that BT went missing there.

Once he contacted LE to report she'd gone missing there, they could hardly then respond with, "Prove it."

They absolutely operated on the assumption that BT was out there.

That in no way means LE had to have evidence that she was there in order to conduct the searches.

They were legally, morally, ethically and professionally obligated to search for her.

They did search for her there.

They didn't find her there.

The question then becomes: Why not?

JMO.

 

[DianaElaine]

Opposite side of the road .... since I believe he said they had to cross the road.

 

[glamourkitty1922]

great work! thank you so much.
i will make some more poster files to share here if anyone else in the area wants to help spread the word about barbara.

Have they had dogs out searching?

 

[chihuahua]

Reminder to myself and anyone who may have missed it/no discussion/much info.
Chi CA - AZ, Barbara Thomas,69,Timelind, Media, Maps, *NO DISCUSSION*

 

[K9Enzo]

I agree with you, but people do hikes without being prepared (enough water, ten essentials, etc.) all the time. It may be dumb, but that doesn't mean it is unusual. Also if they were going out in the morning, ~10am at the trailhead, with plans to be back at the RV by noon, that would avoid the harshness of the midday sun, though I personally would probably be trying to hit the trail closer to 8am.

I was pretty much going to post the same thing. Just because it's not advised or dangerous, doesn't mean people still don't do it anyway and venture out unprepared.

There's a reason SAR is busy, especially during peak seasons. Sometimes even the most logical and experienced people have tragic accidents.

There's also been a lot of conversation around her having a beer and why. I cannot tell you how many people (peak baggers) I have seen having a shot or two of liquor on a mountain summit. You can formulate all kinds of reasons why this is a bad idea.

 

[Auntie Cipation]

I'm curious about the multiple references to them both being familiar with the area.

I wonder if this means they had been to that location before -- in which case they probably parked at the same turnout, since there are limited places for a large vehicle such as RV or fifth-wheel to pull off the road (my opinion based on aerial photos).

If they had parked in that same turnout before, that makes it less likely (IMO) that BT couldn't find the hidden key.

I'm also curious about RT's apparent mention of checking a cave that they were both familiar with. Where could this be? Would it be back in the rock formation where RT stopped to take photos? The landscape doesn't seem conducive to caves except in the rock outcrop areas. I'm curious if he backtracked to find the cave (and if so, did he backtrack farther than his photo point?) or is the cave in a different direction.

Lastly, where is the parking area where others were parked, that she supposedly captured with the 360 photo? Is that at the same location where they themselves were parked?

I'm not asking anyone in particular, just putting the questions out there. Looking at the aerial photos it seems there are only a few turnouts in the area.

 

[Liwthe]

Thanks so much for being a VI here.

This is JMO based on other cases.

The fact that LE organized a ground search of the area would not necessarily mean they have any way to prove she was there. Once LE is told information verbally from a husband that person X was at location Y, there is a duty for them to investigate the claims and so long as they had no initial reason to doubt the person then I could see where they would undertake a formal search of the area. Legally its very important because of their role and they want to avoid any potential lawsuits later if they had doubted his story and not searched. So they pretty much had to search no matter if they had proof or not that she was there.

Then they are protected from a legal standpoint that they did all they could.

I’m sure that’s true. But if into the investigation and after a thorough interview they had a strong reason to believe otherwise, they would shift their focus. It’s expensive, and risky.

What it is shows as far as I can tell is that for the 9 full days at least they had good reason to believe she was there, and no reason (yet) to believe she wasn’t. Otherwise other areas might have been searched because of gps or other data obtained.

 

[K9Enzo]

So there were other cars parked there! I'm beginning to think Robbie was right. Someone attacked her and took her.

Regarding the other cars. Perhaps, like you said she was attacked or someone took her. For me personally, this is the last on my list as probable.

I would be more interested in those others cars/owners as a witness. Did any of them see either one of them that day?

 

[Cherwell]

Opposite side of the road .... since I believe he said they had to cross the road.

That gives a very good idea of the distances, so the rocks, if I'm right, are only about half a mile from where they were parked. They apparently went to a hill first where the 360 photo was taken, but I'm not sure where that was, so they might have done a more triangular or circular walk.

 

[LAhiker]

FIND ATTACHED and definitely take a look on your own if you'd like.

They parked the camper on the pull off, just speculating here of course, hid truck/RV key under a rock they both would be able to find quite easily, they crossed over Kelbaker road (with a camera?, a gallon of water, at least one beer in a travel mug or coozie?, Barb in either bikini top or possibly bra? Robbie carrying a pack of some kind?), once on the other side of the road they proceeded to walk (NOT HIKE) approx 2 miles (exactly 2.2 miles according to Robbie's correspondence with us) towards a hill that could be seen from the parking area just ahead of where they pulled off the road.

Once on this hill Barb decided to take a panorama photo of their surroundings (which I assume includes Robbie in the panorama. If it is a 360 photo as Rob initially suggested they likely brought a 360 camera, and Barb and Robbie should both be in this image). Robbie claims the 360/panorama photo Barb took from this hill includes cars in the parking lot below, potentially even license plate numbers? and was very upset police were not looking into the owners of these cars as potential suspects (and were instead suspecting him, and seemingly ignoring his statements on the day she went missing). I assume if the cars were clearly visible in the picture, surely Rob and Barb would have been plainly visible to anyone in a car in the parking lot below the hill as well.

As they were on the way back from the hill, towards their RV, there was a rock formation Robbie implies they were both interested in. He stopped to take a photo of this rock formation and "asked Barb to stay with me," but she went on ahead anyway. Sounds quite stubborn of her. Perhaps they had some kind of disagreement? In any case, he says she wanted to get back to the RV.

This is where Barb rounds a corner, we can assume she rounds a boulder outcrop that puts her out of Robbie's sight. Robbie has never specified how long he spent taking photos of this rock formation, but he claimed to us that police have photos of Barb on the walk, that day, and that police have photos of the rock formation as well. Robbie and Barb have no known social media accounts where they share photos of their adventures with friends/family.

As Robbie made his way back to the RV he did not have any concerns. The RV was less than 1/4 mile (1000 ft) away from where he last saw her, he has claimed, and was never concerned about how far ahead she could have gotten, between him and the RV. He made his way back to the RV and was not immediately concerned that he didn't see her there. He was hot, he has told us, and poured some water on a towel and put it on his head. After a few minutes of her not turning up he began to grow concerned. He did not immediately look for any signs of tire tracks, or signs of abduction/kidnapping. He proceeded to shout and wave his arms, as well as backtrack to a cave they both knew was in the area. His thinking was, perhaps she went there to get out of the sun (between when she left him and the few minutes it took him to get back to the RV from the rock formation).

According to public records he called the police around 3pm?, and according to Robbie they arrived two hours after he called? On arrival the search and rescue crews destroyed any evidence of a potential crime scene, according to Robbie. If this account is accurate, what did Robbie do in those two hours?

Robbie served in Vietnam, and also has years of experience visiting the Mojave desert, including familiarity with Kelbaker's immediate geological features, and, I would assume, a keen sense for his surroundings. He didn't think to look for signs of abduction, or a struggle? He didn't follow up with the cars parked in the parking lot just down the road (but did check in a cave???)? He didn't look for signs of a struggle around the RV but concludes she must have been abducted? That abduction is the ONLY logical conclusion?

I think we are missing some vital information here and would like to hear a much more detailed account of what Robbie did between taking photos of the rock formation, returning to the RV, searching the area for Barb, calling police, and search and rescue finally arriving. I think our timeline of events could do with clarification.



FOR REFERENCE:
Walking speed 1000 meters or 1 kilometer per 10 minutes ( m/min – km/min ), converted to foot per 10 minutes equals 3280.84 feet per 10 minutes ( ft/min ).
According to the above generalisation Robbie was approx 3 plus MINUTES away from the RV.



I would like to include some further speculation for everyone to consider. Robbie drove across state lines to the only S on a quiet road, the first stage of an otherwise undefined camping trip. He hasn't told any of us anymore about what this trip entailed, or what they were initially planning. They pulled off the road in a place with enough room for other cars to pull off as well. They began their walk in the Mojave around/ or not long after HIGH NOON, in RECORD HEAT. This all happened on a Friday, a weekday, when many others who might otherwise be hiking and exploring the desert area, would have more likely been at work. Regular hikers familiar with the area, and other locals have expressed it would be foolish and naive to wander into the Mojave for a casual walk at this time of day (unless of course your plans required not being seen by anyone else).

Relevant parts bolded by me.

@dbdb11, thanks for your thoughts on this. Others have commented

I think @sroad visited the area and based on where the SAR trailer was the SAR flags in the search area, etc., figured out the spot where RT says that Barbara disappeared. Here's a link. Is that the same place that you're focusing in your satellite photos? Is there an "S-bend" in the spot @sroad found? Maybe someone else can answer this...

CA - CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #2

As a hiker, when someone says they went on a 2.2 mile walk/hike, that normally indicates that the hike was 2.2 miles round trip. That's still probably more than I would do in the hot desert, but I'm not adapted to hot weather and hate glare.

3 miles/hour on flat terrain is a commonly cited walking speed in hiking, though many people go slower. At 3 mph, a quarter mile should take 5 minutes.

As others have noted, the exact time when they did their walk is unclear. If they did leave Bullhead City at 8:15, it does seem likely that it was closer to noon, as RT said to your family, and then it looks like there would be some unaccounted-for time between the walk and the call to authorities. But given that we don't know what else they may have done before the walk, we don't know exactly when they were there.

One other thing does occur to me. If RT says that it was a 2.2 mile walk, the precision of his statement might imply that he had something with him that recorded the distance, such as a phone or Fitbit. (It also could be something he knew from the past, or got from Google.) If he was recording his route with some sort of device, I hope that LE has that device, as well as anything else that would shed light on RT's movements that day.

I hope Barbara is found soon!

 

[MsBetsy]

@MsBetsy I may have missed someone answering your question. But just in case no one did, I believe she was last seen by “anyone other than her husband” around 8:15 that morning according to the VI, and relying only on my memory. I believe it was stated in the last thread.

Edit: I found the post answering the question “last seen leaving their home.” Was she seen after this time? I don’t know. But here is the beginning of the discussion of 8:15 am

CA - CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #3

Thank you, yes, I did see the answer.
Originally I thought the camera just showed the RV leaving. I did not realize it showed Barbara on camera.
I do wonder, though, if this was confirmed by LE or if it is just what Robbie told his nephew.

 

[Reasonable & Just]

Surely if there was no evidence of Barbara even being there ie. the photographs RT mentions and probably other things that made it obvious to LE, they would have never have said they don’t suspect any foul play.

LE can say what they need to in order to get the all-important job of finding this woman done. Reassuring the family or the public is not the main job here. So there are a number of good reasons why they may say what they say at a given point in time. Remember that they saw fit to administer a polygraph (per RT) and that they also they saw fit to tell him there were signs of deception (again per RT). All of this for what it's worth.