Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #18

[nao]

Re Chynna. I the couple were killed in van and then pulled from van by their feet. Then pulled along gravel by side of auto. There would be skin abrasion . Maybe that is where facial damage came from. Moo

 

[MistyWaters]

<modsnip: quoted post was removed>

I'll say it.
Yes. I think they are innocent of those crimes. Unless I am provided with solid evidence that they are not, I will continue to believe that. I am sure their family and friends will as well.
As I have mentioned before there have been many times in which LE(RCMP as well) has named someone a suspect and later they were discovered to not have committed said crime. Naming them as suspects is NOT proving their guilt. In Canada, charging someone is not even proving their guilt.

<modsnip: personalizing>

Actually, when it comes right down to it, the police don’t care what the general public believes at this point in time because the results of their investigation hasn’t been released, including what ties the two crimes scenes.

Had they went with popular opinion, they’d have pulled out of Gillam area early on because couch detectives had them foolishly wasting their time, the suspects long gone possibly to Ontario...or Mexico.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

Why these three? why anyone, existentially, but .. why these three?

SBM - that is the million dollar question.

I hope the families get some answers if they're seeking them. I know as a member of the public, I want to know too how things unfolded but not sure we'll ever find out.

 

[Jan424]

I thought Bryer may have been taking advantage at first, and kind of exploiting his dad's guilt. But after reading that he and his dad talked almost every day, I doubt it. Because to me that actually sounds like a very frequent rate of communication for any 18-year-old and parent they don't live with, and even more so given the history. If the objective was exploitation, he probably would have talked to his dad much more infrequently, only talked to him when he wanted something, etc. I think they actually were very close, and that Bryer probably realized his dad didn't really have anyone else and therefore kept an eye on him.

In fact I think it's even possible that Bryer was a lot more open with his dad compared to the rest of his family, with whatever was going on in his head, and that's why his dad made all of those comments about "he wants his pain to end" and all that. He certainly was open about the Nazi stuff until his dad shut that down.

Now that being said, Bryer probably didn't mind getting expensive gifts, and probably didn't question too much how his dad saved up the money for them.

And given how close they apparently were, that makes it even weirder that Bryer didn't text him until the last minute and gave him inaccurate information about where they were going (and his dad assumed they were visiting Bryer's cousins in a city in Alberta, which would be a less concerning trip for a parent than going to the middle of nowhere by themselves). I think it's entirely possible that Bryer did that to avoid questioning, because he knew his dad would figure out that something was wrong. And looking at the texts, it does sound like his dad was kind of like "...wtf?" from the beginning.

Plus we don't know if these kinds of presents were a regular thing or not. I feel like some people kind of assume his dad was giving him expensive gifts all the time, but I don't think that was actually the case. In context we know that he didn't see Bryer from ages 8 to 16, and the Airsoft rifle was either for his 17th birthday or Christmas when he was 17 (I forget which). So in context it makes total sense because that was their first birthday/Christmas together in 8 years.

Agree with everything you have said here ... it does make sense. I didn't realize at first that Bryer and his dad talked every day, and that certainly says something about their relationship. The more I think about this, the more I do believe Bryer wanted to avoid questioning from AS about his trip. I think he knew he might not be able to pull the wool over his dad's eyes as easily as perhaps his Grandma (just thinking out loud here, no proof of this -- I know my own Gram would definitely believe anything I said back in the day). And I think this way because, if Bryer and AS did speak daily, its unlikely he was just too busy and "forgot" to let AS know. As always, JMO.

 

[CanadianMade]

Actually, when it comes right down to it, the police don’t care what the general public believes at this point in time because the results of their investigation hasn’t been released, including what ties the two crimes scenes.

Had they went with popular opinion, they’d have pulled out of Gillam area early on because couch detectives had them foolishly wasting their time, the suspects long gone possibly to Ontario...or Mexico.

Sorry, but I'm not sure what that really has to do with what I have said here?
I did not say that RCMP care what the public thinks.

 

[MistyWaters]

SBM

The RCMP did not "wait to talk to the killers" before laying charges in the death of Leonard Dyck....there could have bee variables there too.

I find it difficult to fathom that the RCMP would "wait to talk to the killers" in any circumstance involving murder.

Is there any point in talking to killers before laying charges?

Are killers going to be truthful?

That is why evidence is collected and some day soon the RCMP will publicly release/explain some of that collected evidence.
JMO

Maybe not one killer but two suspects known to be together and two victims there can be certain tactical advantages to making an arrest first. Maybe one will confess. Perhaps one would claim to have been sound asleep in the truck and knew nothing of the murders until after the fact. Or each might place total blame on the other and become prosecution witnesses against each other. In Canada police have the right to interview suspects without an attorney being present and the outcome of those interviews become evidence as well.

It’s unlikely each of them contributed equally to murdering first L and then C, or C first then L, whatever the crime scene indicates may’ve been the sequence of events and so who’s charged with murder or possibly who as an accomplice to each could become critical to a successful prosecution down the road. As LDs cause of death has never been released, it’s possible the RCMP were able to recover DNA on his body from both suspects.

So even if the two are been arrested for the murder of LD and shipped back to the province of B.C., it could’ve taken weeks or months for police to build a theory to support the evidence of who and how L&C were murdered. That doesn’t matter whatsoever because B&K would’ve faced two separate criminal proceedings anyway, as the murder of LD occurred at a different time and place, separate from the murders of L&C.

 

[SovereignSnake]

I really don't think there's any indication of "notoriety" in any of this. Giving their real names to Mr. Ste-Croix in Cold Lake was probably more of a knee-jerk, on the spot response; "Oh boy, we didn't think of aliases, okay, okay, quick just say your real name." Then I look at the Co-Op footage and I got the impression they didn't care if they were on CCTV because they were feeling fairly confident no one had nary a clue who they were in that podunk town. They also could have been completely oblivious to it given everything that had transpired in the previous 48 hours. Not to mention, were they even expecting a camera of that quality right in their face at the entrance? I wouldn't have. I'm willing to bet they still thought they were "missing" and maybe even wanted to put a little twist in their supposed "abduction." I mean Kam even says "thank you" to the cashier, I believe Bryer did as well. They even still had basic common courtesy. I think the reality that the party was almost over was when they got stopped in Split Lake the following day and then ditched the RAV later that evening. I mean the RCMP didn't even declare them fugitives until the following day on the 23rd! Then look at Kam's Instagram for example. He hadn't posted anything since like February 2015! Even their Facebook accounts weren't all that readily used. More or less just there if you need them but mostly created as passing fads. In all the interviews with classmates and acquaintances neither of the boys sounded all that extensively sociable nor did they care. Kam and Bryer seemed more like they were only interested in one another. Like no one they interacted with truly "got them" like they got each other. It made me think of that token couple we all knew who stayed together throughout all of middle school and high school. Totally in love and really had no close friends outside their romantic relationship. Then either went on to quickly get married and possibly later divorced or broke up before college started. One more thing while I revisited the Instagram accounts. I noticed Kam's is "kam.mcleod911" and my initial thought was; Is his birthday September 11th? It couldn't be? That would have made him 20 years old in two weeks. I know we don't know his actual birthday, people had said on here it was earlier this year. Intuition keeps telling me it was late April or early May. Again, more speculation but just some thoughts I wanted to get out there.

 

[Jan424]

Re Chynna. I the couple were killed in van and then pulled from van by their feet. Then pulled along gravel by side of auto. There would be skin abrasion . Maybe that is where facial damage came from. Moo

Definitely a possibility, though I wonder why they would need to pull them from the van ... with all that shooting (back window even blown out), I guess I'd figure them to hightail it out of there rather quickly. I realize it is a remote area, but to not be freaked out by just killing 2 people and staying around long enough to drag those poor souls from their van ...

 

[NJSleuth91]

I really don't think there's any indication of "notoriety" in any of this. Giving their real names to Mr. Ste-Croix in Cold Lake was probably more of a knee-jerk, on the spot response; "Oh boy, we didn't think of aliases, okay, okay, quick just say your real name."

I'm pretty sure that's what it was too, which is why they looked at each other beforehand.

Not to mention, were they even expecting a camera of that quality right in their face at the entrance?

I'm guessing no. On the Youtube video, the comments are like "so they have 1080p security cameras now?" Especially in the middle of nowhere. They were probably expecting it to be some half broken, black and white, potato quality camera.

I mean Kam even says "thank you" to the cashier, I believe Bryer did as well. They even still had basic common courtesy.

I mean, they were Canadian.

Then look at Kam's Instagram for example. He hadn't posted anything since like February 2015! Even their Facebook accounts weren't all that readily used.

#1 reason why I think this wasn't done for notoriety. I mean now we have people livestreaming shootings on Facebook and uploading 200-page manifestos online. And these guys didn't even post so much as a creepy status message before heading out?

In all the interviews with classmates and acquaintances neither of the boys sounded all that extensively sociable or did they care. Kam and Bryer seemed more like they were only interested in one another. Like no one they interacted with truly "got them" like they got each other.

Agreed.

I noticed Kam's is "kam.mcleod911" and my initial thought was; Is his birthday September 11th? It couldn't be? That would have made him 20 years old in two weeks. I know we don't know his actual birthday, people had said on here it was earlier this year. Intuition keeps telling me it was late April or early May. Again, more speculation but just some thoughts I wanted to get out there.

I'm pretty sure his birthday was April 12, 2000 -- a funeral home in Winnipeg accidentally made his death announcement public at first, and it was posted elsewhere. But don't quote me on that! The "911" thing is kind of weird.

 

[Moriarty]

I really don't think there's any indication of "notoriety" in any of this. Giving their real names to Mr. Ste-Croix in Cold Lake was probably more of a knee-jerk, on the spot response; "Oh boy, we didn't think of aliases, okay, okay, quick just say your real name." Then I look at the Co-Op footage and I got the impression they didn't care if they were on CCTV because they were feeling fairly confident no one had nary a clue who they were in that podunk town.

Definitely a possibility, though I wonder why they would need to pull them from the van ... with all that shooting (back window even blown out), I guess I'd figure them to hightail it out of there rather quickly. I realize it is a remote area, but to not be freaked out by just killing 2 people and staying around long enough to drag those poor souls from their van ...

And for me, the leaving of the bodies in plain view in the ditch speaks to an unsophisticated and inexperienced perpetrator, much like the giving out of real names as you flee across the country or making very little attempt to change your appearance.

If the bodies were in the van after the attack, why not leave them there, unless you were freaked out by the presence of bodies while searching for whatever valuables you can take. Placing the bodies back into the van or dragging them even further into the treeline might have delayed discovery of the crime considerably, since where the bodies were left were clearly visible to the truck driver passing by early the next morning. Leaving them in plain view with the van side doors wide open speaks to panic and inexperience to me with no attempt made to hide anything.

 

[MistyWaters]

I really don't think there's any indication of "notoriety" in any of this. Giving their real names to Mr. Ste-Croix in Cold Lake was probably more of a knee-jerk, on the spot response; "Oh boy, we didn't think of aliases, okay, okay, quick just say your real name." Then I look at the Co-Op footage and I got the impression they didn't care if they were on CCTV because they were feeling fairly confident no one had nary a clue who they were in that podunk town. They also could have been completely oblivious to it given everything that had transpired in the previous 48 hours. Not to mention, were they even expecting a camera of that quality right in their face at the entrance? I wouldn't have. I'm willing to bet they still thought they were "missing" and maybe even wanted to put a little twist in their supposed "abduction." I mean Kam even says "thank you" to the cashier, I believe Bryer did as well. They even still had basic common courtesy. I think the reality that the party was almost over was when they got stopped in Split Lake the following day and then ditched the RAV later that evening. I mean the RCMP didn't even declare them fugitives until the following day on the 23rd! Then look at Kam's Instagram for example. He hadn't posted anything since like February 2015! Even their Facebook accounts weren't all that readily used. More or less just there if you need them but mostly created as a passing fads. In all the interviews with classmates and acquaintances neither of the boys sounded all that extensively sociable or did they care. Kam and Bryer seemed more like they were only interested in one another. Like no one they interacted with truly "got them" like they got each other. It made me think of that token couple we all knew who stayed together throughout all of middle school and high school. Totally in love and really had no close friends outside their romantic relationship. Then either went on to quickly get married and possibly later divorced or broke up before college started. One more thing while I revisited the Instagram accounts. I noticed Kam's is "kam.mcleod911" and my initial thought was; Is his birthday September 11th? It couldn't be? That would have made him 20 years old in two weeks. I know we don't know his actual birthday, people had said on here it was earlier this year. Intuition keeps telling me it was late April or early May. Again, more speculation but just some thoughts I wanted to get out there.

I agree, I don’t think notoriety was a intended outcome or they wouldn’t have ended their lives. Had they been arrested and convicted they would’ve been assured of having a fan club of people, mainly adoring women, attracted to convicted criminals ever-believing in their innocence.

However I do wonder if for a time they thought they were quite brilliant in outwitting and outrunning police when hearing the early “missing persons” reports including public speculation they may’ve been targeted by the same killer who left LDs body by a rest stop and burned their truck and camper.

Much like a war game where one sets up some sort of decoy to successfully evade the enemy.... was that the motive to murder three innocent victims? The rush of adrenaline of being sought, of the pursuit, hunted, a win or lose real life scenario not played on a screen but instead on front page news? Sometimes I do wonder.

 

[NJSleuth91]

Also another thing I thought of...maybe they went to that co-op specifically because they thought the security cameras would be terrible, and the footage probably would be erased daily. They had worked at Walmart so they probably had some idea of the camera quality of large corporately owned stores.

 

[NJSleuth91]

I agree, I don’t think notoriety was a intended outcome or they wouldn’t have ended their lives.

Plenty of "notoriety" killers kill themselves...Columbine shooters, Elliott Rodger, Adam Lanza....

 

[Jan424]

And for me, the leaving of the bodies in plain view in the ditch speaks to an unsophisticated and inexperienced perpetrator, much like the giving out of real names as you flee across the country or making very little attempt to change your appearance.

If the bodies were in the van after the attack, why not leave them there, unless you were freaked out by the presence of bodies while searching for whatever valuables you can take. Placing the bodies back into the van or dragging them even further into the treeline might have delayed discovery of the crime considerably, since where the bodies were left were clearly visible to the truck driver passing by early the next morning. Leaving them in plain view with the van side doors wide open speaks to panic and inexperience to me with no attempt made to hide anything.

Definitely what I've been thinking as well.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

I really don't think there's any indication of "notoriety" in any of this. Giving their real names to Mr. Ste-Croix in Cold Lake was probably more of a knee-jerk, on the spot response; "Oh boy, we didn't think of aliases, okay, okay, quick just say your real name." Then I look at the Co-Op footage and I got the impression they didn't care if they were on CCTV because they were feeling fairly confident no one had nary a clue who they were in that podunk town. They also could have been completely oblivious to it given everything that had transpired in the previous 48 hours. Not to mention, were they even expecting a camera of that quality right in their face at the entrance? I wouldn't have. I'm willing to bet they still thought they were "missing" and maybe even wanted to put a little twist in their supposed "abduction." I mean Kam even says "thank you" to the cashier, I believe Bryer did as well. They even still had basic common courtesy. I think the reality that the party was almost over was when they got stopped in Split Lake the following day and then ditched the RAV later that evening. I mean the RCMP didn't even declare them fugitives until the following day on the 23rd! Then look at Kam's Instagram for example. He hadn't posted anything since like February 2015! Even their Facebook accounts weren't all that readily used. More or less just there if you need them but mostly created as passing fads. In all the interviews with classmates and acquaintances neither of the boys sounded all that extensively sociable nor did they care. Kam and Bryer seemed more like they were only interested in one another. Like no one they interacted with truly "got them" like they got each other. It made me think of that token couple we all knew who stayed together throughout all of middle school and high school. Totally in love and really had no close friends outside their romantic relationship. Then either went on to quickly get married and possibly later divorced or broke up before college started. One more thing while I revisited the Instagram accounts. I noticed Kam's is "kam.mcleod911" and my initial thought was; Is his birthday September 11th? It couldn't be? That would have made him 20 years old in two weeks. I know we don't know his actual birthday, people had said on here it was earlier this year. Intuition keeps telling me it was late April or early May. Again, more speculation but just some thoughts I wanted to get out there.

I see what you're saying, but wanted to add that notoriety doesn't always equate with the internet/social media.

In today's day and age with the "techie youth" and other mass killings there is a strong tie to the internet/social media for sure but it definitely is interesting that B&S stayed kinda "antisocial" to the end and didn't jump on the social media train.

Didn't stop MSM media though, they were all over this story internationally it seems. So B&K did it the old-fashioned way like the old school fugitives did - relied on the odd eye witness account and newspapers. Didn't Bonnie & Clyde write letters/poems to the media and LE (can't remember)? B&K semi did this with their videotaped goodbye. I have to wonder if they had cell reception if there would have been more documentation this way.

Maybe notoriety isn't the best word (I've used it countlessly on this thread as I still think that was part of it), maybe B&K just wanted to get back at people in a way whether society, people they knew or their families. MOO as usual

*I always try to make a short post but find if you don't explain yourself completely on this thread, words get misconstrued/misunderstood... so another long post from me lol

 

[MistyWaters]

And for me, the leaving of the bodies in plain view in the ditch speaks to an unsophisticated and inexperienced perpetrator, much like the giving out of real names as you flee across the country or making very little attempt to change your appearance.

If the bodies were in the van after the attack, why not leave them there, unless you were freaked out by the presence of bodies while searching for whatever valuables you can take. Placing the bodies back into the van or dragging them even further into the treeline might have delayed discovery of the crime considerably, since where the bodies were left were clearly visible to the truck driver passing by early the next morning. Leaving them in plain view with the van side doors wide open speaks to panic and inexperience to me with no attempt made to hide anything.

Yes that’s for sure, it appears the homicides of all three were intended to be discovered very soon. Somewhat resembles a “game on”.

 

[MistyWaters]

Plenty of "notoriety" killers kill themselves...Columbine shooters, Elliott Rodger, Adam Lanza....

It’s the general public who create their notoriety after their death. JMO

 

[FactFinder3000]

And for me, the leaving of the bodies in plain view in the ditch speaks to an unsophisticated and inexperienced perpetrator, much like the giving out of real names as you flee across the country or making very little attempt to change your appearance.

If the bodies were in the van after the attack, why not leave them there, unless you were freaked out by the presence of bodies while searching for whatever valuables you can take. Placing the bodies back into the van or dragging them even further into the treeline might have delayed discovery of the crime considerably, since where the bodies were left were clearly visible to the truck driver passing by early the next morning. Leaving them in plain view with the van side doors wide open speaks to panic and inexperience to me with no attempt made to hide anything.

I agree. Leaving the victims, especially Mr. Dyck, in plain view is absolutely huge in my book. Just epic level stupid in terms of getting away with the crime. Some might claim it was done on purpose, but I see it as "let's get out of here!" Pure adrenaline fueled panic.

I believe, in the case of the van, that the victims were either left where they fell, or were removed from the van because the perps expected to steal it. I have no idea why they would want the van, but that's what removing the bodies says to me.

 

[Zella]

Didn't Bonnie & Clyde write letters/poems to the media and LE (can't remember)?

SBM

Yep. When I heard Kam and Bryer were found dead together, I immediately thought of Bonnie's poem and the line about how they would end: "Go down together."

I don't think either one of these two were interested in what others thought or knew about them. Their lack of active social media use in general points to that. MOO

 

[sandbar]

It’s the general public who create their notoriety after their death. JMO

And the New Zealand government, in my opinion, did the right thing by not allowing the Christchurch killer's name to be published.