Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #116

[Charlot123]

Excellent question, how could they have the DNA, present at the scene, proving who he is, yet not be able to prove he was at the scene?

If it is from under the nails, they can prove. Anywhere else, and the person says, I joined the search party...

 

[TL4S]

Following is all speculation on my part....

I agree. Unless, of course, that person would be tied to that car at the abandoned building in some way.

I think they had a minimum of two sketches of potential suspects from the start. For reasons unknown they went with BG sketch 1, until such time evidence came forth that convinced them they were wrong, and it is BG sketch 2 who is now their primary suspect.

BG sketch 2's DNA was at the scene, and has been tied to him, through methods at this time unknown.

The car is the missing piece of the puzzle. BG sketch 2's alibi early on, through means unknown, has been debunked.

BG sketch 2 either owns the car, is familiar with, related to, or knows the owner of the car, stole the car, is known to have been in that car, or otherwise.

That d*#m car. It's been haunting me since the PC. I can think of 100 scenarios why it was mentioned over two years after the murders, but there's nothing to support or dissuade any of them.

The timing of the vehicle information along with the new sketch does make it logical to assume they are associated (although we don't know that for sure). I keep wondering if maybe the NBG sketch witness saw him with the car, or saw the car around the same time, but the witness was unreliable. Maybe a drug user, someone with a shady past, or even a child, whatever. Then, maybe other witnesses saw somebody else on the trails that day, and they all described somebody similar to the OBG sketch, so the safer presumption was to go with the multiple, reliable witnesses versus the single, unreliable one. Just one of many guesses...

 

[Mike Britton]

Murders like this often have a trigger, and it seems like he had extreme anger towards women or a particular woman for whom Abby and Libby were surrogates.
I would be looking for A) someone wwas fired by a female boss or because of a complaint from a female OR B) someone whose wife just filed for divorce or whose girlfriend just ditched him OR C) someone whose wife or mother was trying to control his life in some significant way.
Because of LE's comments that this was about control, the controlling female option is the most likely one.

This is consistent with previous speculations. We've discussed a breakup, or interference in a relationship, being a potential trigger.

 

[JnRyan]

I just knew in the beginning that this guy had a high degree of familiarity with the trails AND the surrounding areas. Possibly a nearby resident or had been a resident in the past. I still believe that is the most likely, but I'm not as certain of that now as I was in the beginning. If this was a spur of moment rage killing - i.e., something this guy did not plan to do when he arrived at the trails I tend to believe it is very likely he is very familiar with the trails from past experience. With such experience, he could have gone to his vehicle and got what he needed and then did this on the fly. He could do that because he was confident in his knowledge of the trails.

But what if this guy was a predator on the hunt. That is, he showed up here KNOWING he was going to murder and all he needed was a particular type of victim. True, he could still be someone who was in Delphi in the past. But if he had such an act planned, he may be someone who is very comfortable in a much larger wooded environment. Someone who pays attention to his surroundings and the location of the sun and stars. Such a person may only need one trip to the trails to have scouted that area, maybe just before noon that same day. This could be an experienced hunter or even someone who participates in paintball games. In the Boy Scouts, we played Capture the Flag in woods and we got to know the areas where we played the game very well. Compared to other wooded areas, the Monon trail area is not that large or complicated. I can't see myself getting lost in there and staying lost for very long and it has been a couple of decades since I've spent extensive time in forests or swamps.

If he was not a prior resident or frequent visitor to Delphi, why these trails? If he was such a predator on the hunt, I would think he had other options scouted out in southern IN, IL or even northern KY. If so, others might have seen him in those places as well - assuming either of these sketches is reasonably close to what he looks like. Of course, he could simply be that anonymous type of person, one just seems to blend in with surrounding persons and doesn't stand out. Hidden in plain sight, just not in Delphi.

 

[jhny]

I just knew in the beginning that this guy had a high degree of familiarity with the trails AND the surrounding areas. Possibly a nearby resident or had been a resident in the past. I still believe that is the most likely, but I'm not as certain of that now as I was in the beginning. If this was a spur of moment rage killing - i.e., something this guy did not plan to do when he arrived at the trails I tend to believe it is very likely he is very familiar with the trails from past experience. With such experience, he could have gone to his vehicle and got what he needed and then did this on the fly. He could do that because he was confident in his knowledge of the trails.

But what if this guy was a predator on the hunt. That is, he showed up here KNOWING he was going to murder and all he needed was a particular type of victim. True, he could still be someone who was in Delphi in the past. But if he had such an act planned, he may be someone who is very comfortable in a much larger wooded environment. Someone who pays attention to his surroundings and the location of the sun and stars. Such a person may only need one trip to the trails to have scouted that area, maybe just before noon that same day. This could be an experienced hunter or even someone who participates in paintball games. In the Boy Scouts, we played Capture the Flag in woods and we got to know the areas where we played the game very well. Compared to other wooded areas, the Monon trail area is not that large or complicated. I can't see myself getting lost in there and staying lost for very long and it has been a couple of decades since I've spent extensive time in forests or swamps.

If he was not a prior resident or frequent visitor to Delphi, why these trails? If he was such a predator on the hunt, I would think he had other options scouted out in southern IN, IL or even northern KY. If so, others might have seen him in those places as well - assuming either of these sketches is reasonably close to what he looks like. Of course, he could simply be that anonymous type of person, one just seems to blend in with surrounding persons and doesn't stand out. Hidden in plain sight, just not in Delphi.

IMO BG2 is attending college & is 100+ miles away. until yesterday I was convinced that a meth head murdered the girls. (a more plausible theory but wrong.)

 

[busymcmoody]

IMO BG2 is attending college & is 100+ miles away. until yesterday I was convinced that a meth head murdered the girls. (a more plausible theory but wrong.)

What changed your mind?

 

[southernswede]

I just knew in the beginning that this guy had a high degree of familiarity with the trails AND the surrounding areas. Possibly a nearby resident or had been a resident in the past. I still believe that is the most likely, but I'm not as certain of that now as I was in the beginning. If this was a spur of moment rage killing - i.e., something this guy did not plan to do when he arrived at the trails I tend to believe it is very likely he is very familiar with the trails from past experience. With such experience, he could have gone to his vehicle and got what he needed and then did this on the fly. He could do that because he was confident in his knowledge of the trails.

But what if this guy was a predator on the hunt. That is, he showed up here KNOWING he was going to murder and all he needed was a particular type of victim. True, he could still be someone who was in Delphi in the past. But if he had such an act planned, he may be someone who is very comfortable in a much larger wooded environment. Someone who pays attention to his surroundings and the location of the sun and stars. Such a person may only need one trip to the trails to have scouted that area, maybe just before noon that same day. This could be an experienced hunter or even someone who participates in paintball games. In the Boy Scouts, we played Capture the Flag in woods and we got to know the areas where we played the game very well. Compared to other wooded areas, the Monon trail area is not that large or complicated. I can't see myself getting lost in there and staying lost for very long and it has been a couple of decades since I've spent extensive time in forests or swamps.

If he was not a prior resident or frequent visitor to Delphi, why these trails? If he was such a predator on the hunt, I would think he had other options scouted out in southern IN, IL or even northern KY. If so, others might have seen him in those places as well - assuming either of these sketches is reasonably close to what he looks like. Of course, he could simply be that anonymous type of person, one just seems to blend in with surrounding persons and doesn't stand out. Hidden in plain sight, just not in Delphi.

"If he was not a prior resident or frequent visitor to Delphi, why these trails?"
Yeah, I'd never thought of that before but it makes a lot of sense in thinking that he's a local.

 

[jhny]

on SM, with no names mentioned, a lady speculated about a father & son being involved. she added that wife / mother had in-depth postings about The Shack . (prior to Feb 2017) i have NOT searched for any facebook postings.
i am skeptical of You Tube bs. However, please search You Tube with terms delphi sins of our father. draw your own conclusions. don't know motive & seems unfathomable, however picture comparisons are striking. ie sketch facial scars on BG2 are exact match to the son, a college student. there are numerous videos that tie in to the father son.

 

[jhny]

"If he was not a prior resident or frequent visitor to Delphi, why these trails?"
Yeah, I'd never thought of that before but it makes a lot of sense in thinking that he's a local.

IMO hiking trails & outdoor activities are integral parts of BSA training. even more so for an Eagle Scout.

 

[busymcmoody]

on SM, with no names mentioned, a lady speculated about a father & son being involved. she added that wife / mother had in-depth postings about The Shack . (prior to Feb 2017) i have NOT searched for any facebook postings.
i am skeptical of You Tube bs. However, please search You Tube with terms delphi sins of our father. draw your own conclusions. don't know motive & seems unfathomable, however picture comparisons are striking. ie sketch facial scars on BG2 are exact match to the son, a college student. there are numerous videos that tie in to the father son.

That guy has made an account on Twitter pretending to be Kelsi German. She reported him to DC. So my take at this point is, he's a nutcase. The guy he's blaming went to school with Kelsi I think.

 

[MJPeony]

Welcome jhny! Glad to have your thoughts on this case and I personally always like new fresh ideas.

Word of caution, so that we keep thread open- we can’t discuss rumors on YouTube or social media. Things must have some sort of merit based on MSM (main steam media). You’re new so it’s understandable you would have missed this warning when this very father/son speculation has come up before.

Also, these videos that you mention use a LOT of clearly doctored or manipulated images of the video BG. Huge red flag.

So not at all a criticism of you, but just sharing that we can’t perpetuate rumors and photo comparisons about specific people if they haven’t been named a POI. And it personally breaks my heart to see as-of-yet-innocent young boys’ photos being publicly posted on YT claiming he’s BG. Gack. Could really ruin his life.


MOO.

 

[southernswede]

Was the crime scene (or area where the bodies were found) visible from on top of the bridge? Watching videos ppl have made of the trail you can really see a long way in the woods when the trees are bare. I just can't understand how no one saw or heard anything. Libby seemed like quite a firecracker; I can't see her surrendering to him in any way.

 

[sunshineray]

Excellent question, how could they have the DNA, present at the scene, proving who he is, yet not be able to prove he was at the scene?

I think it's very possible that the DNA they have is only a partial profile so it can only tell investigators a family group, maybe including even more than one branch of that family. So LE may be able to prove location of family where the murderer is from but can't single out a member as being the ONE at the murder scene.

This is not to say LE doesn't know who the killer is by their instincts. They can't put ONLY him at the murder scene with the DNA recovered. I think that's why they asked the public about the vehicle. They need to place him there to prosecute successfully. AJMO

 

[jhny]

That guy has made an account on Twitter pretending to be Kelsi German. She reported him to DC. So my take at this point is, he's a nutcase. The guy he's blaming went to school with Kelsi I think.

i am a total skeptic too. he may be a nut but the pictures / clothing / walk match/ facial scars/. also that explains why there are sketches 1 & 2.
will research shack angle more.

 

[sunshineray]

TY for explaining. So you think this sketch of someone seen by a witness may be another unidentified person wandering around the trails. That is possible by why has he not come forward to clear himself? I think that LE have somehow worked out that this NBG sketch is the guy on the bridge and confidently are now saying this. They must have other evidence that they have not released to be so confident IMO. "You want to know what we know and someday you will"
Spooky really.

I agree with you. They know a lot. They just can't get enough...yet...to arrest for conviction.

There may even be more than one single person providing an alibi to the killer. Breaking one family alibi, a parent perhaps, could be tough. Breaking two people stating the same alibi could be impossible.

 

[southernswede]

IMO, the BG isn't all that healthy. Judging from the way he walks and his build. I'd say he's a drinker and smoker. I'd say he's a blue-collar worker

Welcome jhny! Glad to have your thoughts on this case and I personally always like new fresh ideas.

Word of caution, so that we keep thread open- we can’t discuss rumors on YouTube or social media. Things must have some sort of merit based on MSM (main steam media). You’re new so it’s understandable you would have missed this warning when this very father/son speculation has come up before.

Also, these videos that you mention use a LOT of clearly doctored or manipulated images of the video BG. Huge red flag.

So not at all a criticism of you, but just sharing that we can’t perpetuate rumors and photo comparisons about specific people if they haven’t been named a POI. And it personally breaks my heart to see as-of-yet-innocent young boys’ photos being publicly posted on YT claiming he’s BG. Gack. Could really ruin his life.


MOO.

Agree. How can it be legal to do that to someone?

 

[Falling Down]

Was the crime scene (or area where the bodies were found) visible from on top of the bridge? Watching videos ppl have made of the trail you can really see a long way in the woods when the trees are bare. I just can't understand how no one saw or heard anything. Libby seemed like quite a firecracker; I can't see her surrendering to him in any way.

Good questions.

Early MSM videos taken on RL's property along the creek side, mere feet from where the girls were found, show the line-of-sight to the bridge is mostly obscured by the tops of trees around and along the creek area. Some or sections of the bridge can be seen, however the SE end is obscured, from the perspective of the creek side of RL's property, and the same for the NW end. Basically, from the section of bridge right above the creek the view of where they crossed would have been mostly clear.

The CS itself is obscured by vegetation, and there are raised areas of land where there was a gravel pit on private property just below the cemetery. I keep in mind this is a gorge, along Deer Creek. I attached a photo of RL talking with a reporter adjacent to where this abandoned gravel pit is located. The girls were found within 50-60 feet of where they are standing. The other image is a SS of a 1992 USGS image showing the pit, and I marked roughly where RL and the reporter are standing, and roughly where the CS is located.

The CS would not be visible from the bridge.

JMO

 

[sunshineray]

I am thinking the car had several people associated with it, all meeting at the trail for illegal purposes. One of them is BG and the others know it but they are alibis for each other and frightened of BG. LE know the car but need to know all the occupants and associates.

MOO.

I remember in the Rhoden Family case LE coming forward and saying (paraphrasing) listen, we don't care if you're selling weed, into stolen cars etc... just tell us who killed these people, that's what we want to know. I would think IN LE would be of a similar mindset. It's an interesting senario you've described. What do you think the illegal activity would have been for others with BG to not report the killing of two children?

 

[PaulaDC]

I am thinking the car had several people associated with it, all meeting at the trail for illegal purposes. One of them is BG and the others know it but they are alibis for each other and frightened of BG. LE know the car but need to know all the occupants and associates.

MOO.

What they need is someone spotting BG in or near said automobile on Feb. 13 at the abandoned building.

 

[busymcmoody]

Some days this case really freaks me out. Today is such a day. Let the arrest be soon.