Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #116

[Tiger Stripes]

Then factor in that as another poster pointed out, people accustomed to being physically uncomfortable would not be discouraged from that level of cold and wet.

Such people could be farmers, construction tradesmen, work in agriculture (food processing, well digging etc.), or be hiking, hunting / fishing hobbyists etc.

(SBM)

Or... could be someone bent on getting revenge...

But... at the cost of someone's life? Worse yet, at the cost of two individuals' lives?

Let's add to the mix of the following: Someone...

• familiar with the area
• familiar specifically with the MHB (no small feat)
• okay with the outdoors (yes, it was unseasonably warm, but not 50s-60s temps)
• *possibly* bent on getting revenge
• skilled at "acting" (able to change character to quickly appear as a mild-mannered hiker on a nice afternoon, even after committing an unthinkable act)
• given to explosive anger
• sufficiently knowledgeable of DNA samples that he could contaminate them (this point seems -- JMOO -- to significantly narrow the list of potential suspects)

n.b. -- None of these points includes references to SM, though SM may have been a factor, and through various means of accessing SM, etc.
--
Thus, someone with absolutely no knowledge of the area, who just "happened" upon the MHB, the adjacent trails, who came from I-65 (major interstate nearby), and who is from, say, the Western US, or, say, New England, etc., is probably not going to be at the top of the suspect list -- unless, of course, that individual grew up in Delphi/regularly visited there when he was much younger, etc. All just MOO random thoughts.

 

[taximama24]

It was a popular thing to do at that age 2 years ago. My girls and their friends did the exact same thing, going to a nature sight and taking cute pictures of each other. I've always wondered if Abby took any pictures of Libby that day.

This. Every bit this. I'm familiar with the "VSCO" girl trend, I'm familiar with the "IG worthy photo shoots" for this age group...but if this was their intent, where are the pics?? The one pic of the bridge and the one pic of Abby that got sent out on snapchat, those don't jiive with this trend. I've always been skeptical that this was their purpose because they have Libby's phone, there would have been more pics. There would have been pics of Libby. I'm just not sold on the primary reason for going there that day being to take pictures, even though it was absolutely a normal teen thing to do.

It doesn't appear it was hunting season? And I'm not sure how satisfying fishing would be in that creek that time of year. Happy to be corrected on both of those hobbies, as I am unfamiliar with them. But it was unseasonably warm, just after more typical snowfall months but safely before more typical hiking months. It seems to me it would be a sweet spot in timing for the (oft speculated) meth cooking in the area, most people if seeing smoke (does that even generate smoke, I actually have no idea) would still assume winter firepits/fireplaces, and they probably didn't know or forgot about the school off day. I think BG could have never intended to kill but carried the gun as I assume people in that nefarious business likely always do. I think the girls then just may have seen a little too much and BG killed them out of fear of maybe going to jail, going back to jail, etc. Or we know there are folks connected to the girls mingled with that lifestyle so perhaps it wasn't something they wanted those connections finding out about, etc. I think its still a reasonable guess at this point is this is tied in some way to drug activity and that is why LE can't get a straight story and no one is willing to give anyone up as being there or knowing who did what to the girls.

 

[Ozoner]

(SBM)

Or... could be someone bent on getting revenge...

But... at the cost of someone's life? Worse yet, at the cost of two individuals' lives?

Let's add to the mix of the following: Someone...

• familiar with the area
• familiar specifically with the MHB (no small feat)
• okay with the outdoors (yes, it was unseasonably warm, but not 50s-60s temps)
• *possibly* bent on getting revenge
• skilled at "acting" (able to change character to quickly appear as a mild-mannered hiker on a nice afternoon, even after committing an unthinkable act)
• given to explosive anger
• sufficiently knowledgeable of DNA samples that he could contaminate them (this point seems -- JMOO -- to significantly narrow the list of potential suspects)

n.b. -- None of these points includes references to SM, though SM may have been a factor, and through various means of accessing SM, etc.
--
Thus, someone with absolutely no knowledge of the area, who just "happened" upon the MHB, the adjacent trails, who came from I-65 (major interstate nearby), and who is from, say, the Western US, or, say, New England, etc., is probably not going to be at the top of the suspect list -- unless, of course, that individual grew up in Delphi/regularly visited there when he was much younger, etc. All just MOO random thoughts.

Regarding the temperature, people should consider that the air temperature is not the only thing that affects how warm or cold people feel. If it was a sunny day in the low 40s, the radiant heat from the sun would have made people feel quite warm--possibly warm enough to doff their hats and jackets; if it was a cloudy, windy day in the low 40s, people would have felt considerably colder.
I mention those things because if it was cloudy and windy, then it wouldn't have been unusual for BG to be wearing both a jacket and hoodie. If it was sunny out and there was little wind, then BG's attire would suggest that he was trying to conceal his identity or his rape/murder kit.
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As far as revenge goes, I've considered that the girls could have been surrogates of some sort. Maybe BG wanted revenge against the Delphi community, against females in general, or against adolescent females in particular.
-
I wish we knew whether the murders showed signs of rage. A rage killing of such young victims would point to a fairly young offender, probably someone in his late teens or early 20s, possibly a recent (2015 or 2016) graduate of the local high school. A cold, methodical killing might suggest an older, seasoned killer.

 

[JnRyan]

In one of the first police press conferences they inferred they thought it was planned.

The police stated it being a chance encounter was possible but not likely. Of course they may have changed theories since then


Go to the 24:50 mark

Interesting listening to this again. I had forgotten that LE thought a chance encounter was not likely. Does he mean that LE believes the killer likely knew the girls? That he planned to be there when they were there? I also wonder if they changed theories.
The FBI agent stated there would billboards throughout the country. I believe we can say that LE believes he is still closer to Delphi than they did then.
LE also does not state that the voice is definitely the voice of the killer and adds there may be more than one person involved. I wonder how much that has changed given that the April 2019 PC seems to be aimed at single individual when ISP superintendent is addressing the killer.

 

[TheVisual]

In one of the first police press conferences they inferred they thought it was planned.

The police stated it being a chance encounter was possible but not likely. Of course they may have changed theories since then


Go to the 24:50 mark

Listening to this original clip of BG speaking it seems like he is saying"please go down the hill".

 

[Ozoner]

Interesting listening to this again. I had forgotten that LE thought a chance encounter was not likely. Does he mean that LE believes the killer likely knew the girls? That he planned to be there when they were there? I also wonder if they changed theories.
The FBI agent stated there would billboards throughout the country. I believe we can say that LE believes he is still closer to Delphi than they did then.
LE also does not state that the voice is definitely the voice of the killer and adds there may be more than one person involved. I wonder how much that has changed given that the April 2019 PC seems to be aimed at single individual when ISP superintendent is addressing the killer.

BBM

The comments that you mentioned were made early in the investigation, before LE knew very much. LE probably made those comments because they didn't want the public to panic. Since then, LE has learned that the girls' trip to the trail at that particular time was impromptu, checked out anyone and everyone closely connected to the girls, and checked out the girls' online activities without finding any leads. I don't think that LE still believes that a chance encounter was unlikely (if they ever really did).

 

[flashy09]

In one of the first police press conferences they inferred they thought it was planned.

The police stated it being a chance encounter was possible but not likely. Of course they may have changed theories since then


Go to the 24:50 mark

That is interesting and I had not heard that. I know he said nothing off the table, but that sounds like a big clue. Also, the talk about the FBI having the ability to get involved in for multi state investigation if needed - the FBI did end up getting involved. So does that mean LE was thinking OBG was not a local? Maybe the change of direction is a tip about to NBG and the shift to focusing on Delphi. A local suspect also makes it far less likely to be a chance encounter.

Is there a problem with the timeline that would discredit the simplest and most obvious reasoning that the Snapchat photo alerted the killer? I think Libby's account was private, but a friend could have said "oh look, Abby is on the bridge" and it was overheard. An uncle or older brother's friend....not someone the girls knew or that was on their SC friends list. Or did a friend ask an uncle or older brother for a ride to the bridge to meet the girls and alert them? What about Libby's older sister - did she mention to anyone she dropped the girls off where it could be overheard? Did Libby's grandfather mention to anyone he was picking up the girls? I feel like it's someone who knew the girls were there in a non direct way and have flown under the radar.

Yes this is completely different than my theory last night about a random visiting his grandmother ....lol....I am pretty lost on this case, but focusing on clues from LE and what makes most sense is usually the way to go.

 

[flashy09]

I didn't see anything resembling a mall. As I tried to depict in that photo album of Delphi, the Carroll County Courthouse building frames downtown and dictates the area. Local businesses are across the street on all sides. The courthouse lawn has a theme on each quadrant. The Pizza King favored by Abby and Libby is smack across the street on the gazebo quadrant.

I think the Pizza King the girls went to (and Abby was a "taste tester" at as her pretend job) was in Flora. Which had a little drama lately with its owner.

 

[JnRyan]

The comments that you mentioned were made early in the investigation, before LE knew very much. LE probably made those comments because they didn't want the public to panic. Since then, LE has learned that the girls' trip to the trail at that particular time was impromptu, checked out anyone and everyone closely connected to the girls, and checked out the girls' online activities without finding any leads. I don't think that LE still believes that a chance encounter was unlikely (if they ever really did).

This is only time I can recall LE discussing or addressing a chance encounter. I have not heard it come up again that I remember. How likely is it that LE changed their mind? Hard to tell from what LE has released. Besides even though LE has gone through their social media, computers and phones, LE really does not know who the girls told in a face to face situation. Or who might have been nearby - e.g., a store, school, gas station - and overheard the conversation. Someone in an interview (Kelsi, Liberty's grandparents? don't remember) stated that the girls had been talking about going to the trail on the day off for a few days.

 

[JnRyan]

I thought I remembered an update on the vehicle, but it was hard to find. There is a better interview somewhere but I can't find it. ISP Sgt. Kim Riley states they have received information on the vehicle parked near the former CPS building, but they can't go into the details. About 1:10-1.15 in the video.

Investigators ‘still working hard’ 6 months after releasing new sketch of Delphi murder suspect

 

[neesaki]

Revenge? One suspect we have discussed here, had a motive.

I don’t recall this, could someone refresh my memory? Just a clue should do. TIA.

 

[katsrfun]

Hello to all. Wish they could solve this. I thought it would be solved early on. Just a note, when we were teenagers we lived about 1/8th mile from the Erie Canal, which had great walking paths on one side. Every time we had a chance, days off, weekends, etc. we would walk the path, sometimes for miles. You could get anywhere in town very quickly because it was a straightaway. However, at that time we never thought of any danger, and there was no escape, woods on one side and the canal on the other. However, in the hundreds of times we walked and explored, there is only one time we passed another person, and it did send our red flags up, a scraggly looking man who watched us intently. So, I can see the girls wanting to go there, you never knew what you might see, and we could get to friends houses quickly. Anyway, just my thoughts. To us, even though we did have a mall and a big and active downtown, we would almost always opt to go to the canal path. JMO. Thanks, Katt

 

[Falling Down]

I thought I remembered an update on the vehicle, but it was hard to find. There is a better interview somewhere but I can't find it. ISP Sgt. Kim Riley states they have received information on the vehicle parked near the former CPS building, but they can't go into the details. About 1:10-1.15 in the video.

Investigators ‘still working hard’ 6 months after releasing new sketch of Delphi murder suspect

Yet another MSM outlet keeps repeating false information, smh:

Sgt. Riley said some tips have been about a car found abandoned near the trails on the day the girls went missing. On Thursday, he said he could not give us any details about what information investigators have on it.

No car was "found abandoned".

 

[busymcmoody]

Since then, LE has learned that the girls' trip to the trail at that particular time was impromptu,

SBM
Do you mean it was impromptu because they only got the OK from their grandmother that day? These two girls asked Kelsi multiple times over the course of the previous week whether she could take them to the bridge. One thing I remember from my teenage years is that kids when they were making plans without having the permission of their parents yet, they had a tendency to downplay getting said permission, like "It'll be OK, I'll be there." So I don't think it was that spontaneous as it sounds because they only got it okayed that day.

MOO

 

[neesaki]

I got wet to up over my waist while hunting one time. And it wasn't an accident, but the result of a deliberate act. (Yes, a dumb one, but deliberate nonetheless.) Temps in the 40's and getting dark. As soon as I got moving to my car, even though I couldn't really run, I wasn't that cold. (With the sun going down I didn't want to take a chance of getting injured stepping in a hole or tripping over a root in the half mile back to my car so I didn't run.) It was only after I sat in the car waiting for the heater to warm up that I felt cold. On a sunny day with unseasonably high temps (in the mid to high 40's) and moving briskly, this guy could easily have covered 1-2 miles without much problem. It makes me wonder about this guy's past experiences. Is he a hunter? Does he have experience in the outdoors in winter?

I know what you’re saying, we were backpacking and woke up to cold rain which soon turned into snow. Had no decent rain gear, just a cheap plastic poncho, and had to hike out 7 or 8 miles. We had to keep going and moved as fast as we could with our big packs due to the wet cold. We we’re ok until we reached our destination then the shivers set in full force. Ah, for the good old days.

 

[Falling Down]

Hello to all. Wish they could solve this. I thought it would be solved early on. Just a note, when we were teenagers we lived about 1/8th mile from the Erie Canal, which had great walking paths on one side. Every time we had a chance, days off, weekends, etc. we would walk the path, sometimes for miles. You could get anywhere in town very quickly because it was a straightaway. However, at that time we never thought of any danger, and there was no escape, woods on one side and the canal on the other. However, in the hundreds of times we walked and explored, there is only one time we passed another person, and it did send our red flags up, a scraggly looking man who watched us intently. So, I can see the girls wanting to go there, you never knew what you might see, and we could get to friends houses quickly. Anyway, just my thoughts. To us, even though we did have a mall and a big and active downtown, we would almost always opt to go to the canal path. JMO. Thanks, Katt

i can relate, I grew up near the canal, even lived next to it for a while.

I'd run a six mile round-trip along a stretch of it, near one of the locks. One stretch had no clear line-of-sight to nearby homes, roads, etc. Often times women out there alone would look back at me as I ran by, at least people are vigilant about such things, which is smart. I'm a big guy and I'm vigilant, especially after these murders here in IN.

As a kid we never thought something bad could happen to us along the canal, or down by the Genesee River. Little did we know during HS one of the serial killers there in Rochester was murdering women in the gorge, and dumping bodies along there. A friend of a friend found one of the victims.

Still, as teens we never felt any sense of danger in some of the secluded areas where we hung out. Never encountered anyone that would have really spooked us. These cases of murders in secluded areas are very rare, although I think a perp like BG was counting on A&L not being too concerned due to their age, maybe easier to control, etc.

JMO

 

[stattlich1]

Having watched that press conference posted a page or two back, it's pretty obvious to me that there was more than one person involved in the murder of these girls.

paraphrasing.....

The voice recording is not necessarily the person on the bridge?
The person on the bridge may not have committed the act, but was part of it?
The encounter could have been random but unlikely?
The tv reference, what you see is the screen, there's a whole bunch outside the screen you don't see?
There is much more on the phone recording than we have released?

Once again, my opinion, these girls were targeted. The killer(s) knew they'd be there that day. The suspects are local, live, or lived in Delphi, and are hiding in plain sight.

 

[busymcmoody]

Having watched that press conference posted a page or two back, it's pretty obvious to me that there was more than one person involved in the murder of these girls.

paraphrasing.....

The voice recording is not necessarily the person on the bridge?
The person on the bridge may not have committed the act, but was part of it?
The encounter could have been random but unlikely?
The tv reference, what you see is the screen, there's a whole bunch outside the screen you don't see?
There is much more on the phone recording than we have released?

Once again, my opinion, these girls were targeted. The killer(s) knew they'd be there that day. The suspects are local, live, or lived in Delphi, and are hiding in plain sight.

I agree mostly. I think they were targeted, I don't think there was more than one killer. There may have been an accomplice though.

 

[flashy09]

Having watched that press conference posted a page or two back, it's pretty obvious to me that there was more than one person involved in the murder of these girls.

paraphrasing.....

The voice recording is not necessarily the person on the bridge?
The person on the bridge may not have committed the act, but was part of it?
The encounter could have been random but unlikely?
The tv reference, what you see is the screen, there's a whole bunch outside the screen you don't see?
There is much more on the phone recording than we have released?

Once again, my opinion, these girls were targeted. The killer(s) knew they'd be there that day. The suspects are local, live, or lived in Delphi, and are hiding in plain sight.

Now LE says the voice IS the person on the bridge and he IS the one who murdered the girls.

 

[BNA]

Listening to this original clip of BG speaking it seems like he is saying"please go down the hill".

Also, in introductory comments, speaker says "murderers."