Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #117

[TL4S]

I believe the girls did see him earlier. I believe it was BP that said the girls were talking about a man they had seen & Abby asked Libby “He’s behind me, isn’t he?”.
MOO

I've heard about that statement, too, but never seen the article or interview myself. Was it ever made clear when this was said? Was it earlier on the trail, or was it during the bridge video?

 

[sleuther0192837465]

I'm thinking a pistol was used to SUBDUE into acquiescence but I fear a knife may have been used to end their lives. That's just my gut instinct and nothing more. I certainly have nothing to substantiate it.

I agree a gun was used to control the girls, but I’m on the fence about how they were killed. MOO

 

[MingyMoo]

I believe the girls did see him earlier. I believe it was BP that said the girls were talking about a man they had seen & Abby asked Libby “He’s behind me, isn’t he?”.
MOO

I think it was GH surmising and chatting on one of his early videos.

MingyMoo

 

[sleuther0192837465]

I've heard about that statement, too, but never seen the article or interview myself. Was it ever made clear when this was said? Was it earlier on the trail, or was it during the bridge video?

Still looking for exact statement.
Link to article:
Police: Delphi murder victims spoke of man behind them in audio played for family
Snippet:
DELPHI, Ind. (WTHR) - State police say more audio from Libby German's cell phone was played for the victims' families, including a mention of a man they noticed behind them.
ETA & FTR: I’ve never seen LE or BP mention “creepy guy”. MOO

 

[Maplesyrup]

In February 2017 one Snapchat video could only be a maximum of ten seconds long, so if Libby was trying to film BG quickly and furtively, the most she would have got was 10 seconds.

In July 2017 there was an app upgrade that allowed you to record 6 x 10 second videos.

This is how to record 60-second videos on Snapchat

I'm inclined to think Libby was taking snapchat photos and that the photo of Abby on the bridge was indeed a snapchat photo. That makes sense. But a video was likely recorded separately as a video, not using the snapchat app. Who was the first person to call these the 'snapchat murders?' Was it the media? I cannot recall if LE ever coined that phrase??

 

[sleuther0192837465]

I'm inclined to think Libby was taking snapchat photos and that the photo of Abby on the bridge was indeed a snapchat photo. That makes sense. But a video was likely recorded separately as a video, not using the snapchat app. Who was the first person to call these the 'snapchat murders?' Was it the media? I cannot recall if LE ever coined that phrase??

LE has never mentioned SC when talking about Libby’s recording. I have no idea where that idea even came from, but the only time LE mentioned SC was when they talked about the pic of Abby on the bridge at 2:07 pm. MOO

 

[Maplesyrup]

I assume you are referring to why would the murderer(s) go south, via the railbed? If so, it is entirely possible they knew the home at the end of the private drive was not occupied. That affords them relatively safe access to that property and a heavily wooded area to the southeast, culminating in a short stretch of wooded area to route 200.

That gets them away from the usual trails, the bridge, the creek, the entrance to the trails, the cemetery, all those points that seem obvious to search.

The route south through the woods gives the killer(s) immediate removal from what they may have determined to be the most likely places to be detected.

If you refer to a possible Bridge Creek escape, that would be an excellent way to escape detection, be picked up on the highway, and get out. If a killer is already wet, walking out through a stream, or in and out of a stream, would be a non issue.

carry on

Didn't LE ask the public to call if they noticed a man carrying a duffel bag around the time of the killings in the area of the MHB?? Does this mean LE saw a duffel bag at some point on the video? Do they think he put his supplies in that bag? Do they think he changed his clothes to leave the area and had his original clothing in the bag? I cannot recall which day that request was released to the public. I will keep looking.

 

[sleuther0192837465]

Yes, LE did ask if anyone had seen someone carrying/discarding a duffle bag to call it in. That was very early on. MOO
ETA:
"We're trying to get people that were driving down the Hoosier Heartland, that were on the interstate, that were in Logansport that might have saw somebody walking, hitchhiking-- if they saw a duffle bag laying somewhere, anything. We're just reaching out for people that saw anything within that distance," Riley said.
Tips pour in after suspect identified in Delphi double homicide

 

[JnRyan]

I agree a gun was used to control the girls, but I’m on the fence about how they were killed. MOO

Given the persons KNOWN to be looked at by LE, I'm wondering about how Abigail and Liberty were killed. Daniel Nations threatened people on a trail with an ax and someone was later killed on that trail with a gun. LE said there were "many similarities" about both sets of murders. Then Thomas Bruce sexually assaults women in the St. Louis area and kills one of them with a gun. Then Paul Etter kidnaps and rapes an adult woman in IN and LE is interested in his autopsy.
Again, these are KNOWN criminals LE is looking at so we don't know who else they were suspicious of in the investigation. I also believe a gun was used to control the girls, but I really don't have a clue as to how they were killed. My fear is that if this killer used the gun to control them without touching them and then shot them, then we very likely don't have his DNA at the crime scene.

 

[sleuther0192837465]

I’ve posted that article many many times here. I realize LE’s statements have been confusing & later clarified, but I try to take note of everything from LE, from BP, MP & AW. Nowhere else, because everyone else is thirdhand paraphrasing or embellishments.
MOO

 

[JudgeJudi]

That's good info to know. From other things LE has said, I always felt the "down the hill" audio was a separate recording from the bridge video. I guess we don't know if either was done with SC, though.

I'm inclined to think Libby was taking snapchat photos and that the photo of Abby on the bridge was indeed a snapchat photo. That makes sense. But a video was likely recorded separately as a video, not using the snapchat app. Who was the first person to call these the 'snapchat murders?' Was it the media? I cannot recall if LE ever coined that phrase??

I was just about to reply to the first quote and then read the second. It's my understanding that Libby used snapchat for the video and the photos, and yes, you can record audio separately.

The app you use will determine how long you can record and how successfully you can sync or process longer audio files. Native apps such as Voice Recorder and Voice Memo have been reported by some users as stopping after 30 minutes or having difficulty processing files that were over an hour long.
Recording time depends on the amount of free space on your iPhone.

How Long Can the iPhone Record Audio?

 

[sleuther0192837465]

Given the persons KNOWN to be looked at by LE, I'm wondering about how Abigail and Liberty were killed. Daniel Nations threatened people on a trail with an ax and someone was later killed on that trail with a gun. LE said there were "many similarities" about both sets of murders. Then Thomas Bruce sexually assaults women in the St. Louis area and kills one of them with a gun. Then Paul Etter kidnaps and rapes an adult woman in IN and LE is interested in his autopsy.
Again, these are KNOWN criminals LE is looking at so we don't know who else they were suspicious of in the investigation. I also believe a gun was used to control the girls, but I really don't have a clue as to how they were killed. My fear is that if this killer used the gun to control them without touching them and then shot them, then we very likely don't have his DNA at the crime scene.

I’ve always had an issue with shooting deaths. People were there on the trails that day. Someone would have heard that. It’s possible that info hasn’t been leaked out by any witness, but I’d think someone would have let that slip, so that is why I’m doubtful a gun was used to commit the murders. Nothing to back that up, just MOO

 

[FrostedGlass]

Given the persons KNOWN to be looked at by LE, I'm wondering about how Abigail and Liberty were killed. Daniel Nations threatened people on a trail with an ax and someone was later killed on that trail with a gun. LE said there were "many similarities" about both sets of murders. Then Thomas Bruce sexually assaults women in the St. Louis area and kills one of them with a gun. Then Paul Etter kidnaps and rapes an adult woman in IN and LE is interested in his autopsy.
Again, these are KNOWN criminals LE is looking at so we don't know who else they were suspicious of in the investigation. I also believe a gun was used to control the girls, but I really don't have a clue as to how they were killed. My fear is that if this killer used the gun to control them without touching them and then shot them, then we very likely don't have his DNA at the crime scene.

What would LE hope to learn from Etter's autopsy that would be helpful in Delphi's case?

 

[JudgeJudi]

Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #116

Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #116

Gray Hughes crime scene flow videos have been posted a number of times. While there are several more recent versions, I still find this one the easiest to watch. It was filmed just weeks after the murders. It’s a bit jumpy but was being filmed while JM was walking. It's only 15 minutes long and starts from the drop-off point. Once you turn left onto the main trail, you can fast forward over most of it if you wish and pick it up at 4:50 where you’ll see the barrier (not a gate.) GH used vines on the railway ties, forked trees and a bright spot/white “nodule” in order to place BG precisely. As more info became available he made two amendments: Reduced BG’s distance from the end of the bridge to approx. 60’ and stated that Libby had to be standing off the bridge in order to get the angle seen in the still.

The distances look much greater in the photos and video due to Libby’s phone having a wider angle lens and the image of BG was incredibly tiny before NASA did their handiwork.

LE released one image that shows a tiny piece of Abby’s jacket, and this was subsequently cropped when they released the 3 frames of BG walking.

The video continues down the hill. Note how shallow the water is. The crime scene is directly opposite and crime scene tape is visible.

 

[sleuther0192837465]

Given the persons KNOWN to be looked at by LE, I'm wondering about how Abigail and Liberty were killed. Daniel Nations threatened people on a trail with an ax and someone was later killed on that trail with a gun. LE said there were "many similarities" about both sets of murders. Then Thomas Bruce sexually assaults women in the St. Louis area and kills one of them with a gun. Then Paul Etter kidnaps and rapes an adult woman in IN and LE is interested in his autopsy.
Again, these are KNOWN criminals LE is looking at so we don't know who else they were suspicious of in the investigation. I also believe a gun was used to control the girls, but I really don't have a clue as to how they were killed. My fear is that if this killer used the gun to control them without touching them and then shot them, then we very likely don't have his DNA at the crime scene.

Wanted to say more about your post.
I kept asking about the vehicle LE mentioned at the April PC. I think they know what type of vehicle it was. Could the vehicles these POI’s owned have matched the vehicle mentioned in the April PC? I asked that because I am still praying that an axe was not used & that there was no SA...I’m hoping the similarities are: The way bodies were found, type of area, the ages of the girls, the way in which they were abducted, the vehicles, things like that. I hope that made sense? I just don’t want to think of SA or some horrific deaths...maybe that’s not good for theory making, but I can’t let my mind go there MOO

 

[sleuther0192837465]

What would LE hope to learn from Etter's autopsy that would be helpful in Delphi's case?

That’s a damn good question!
ETA: You’d think if they were looking for tattoos or moles or something, that would have been mentioned in BG’s suspect description...hmmm....MOO

 

[JudgeJudi]

Were the murders on the video

James Renner interview with Sheriff Tobe Leazenby.

Q. Have you listened to the full audio, the full Snapchat that was captured?
A. I have. I have.

Q. What is that like?
A. I hate to be somewhat clichéd but it’s - obviously I hear people voice. (ui) say whether or not that’s the face of evil in that picture, yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, we’re still in the mindset of we have to still look at the big picture here as far as was someone else involved along with this individual.

Q. Is there anything on – that leads you to believe that?
A. No.

Q. You just don’t want to rule anything out at this point?
A. Right. Right. Yeah. ...

Q. Is the attack itself on the recording?
A. No.

 

[JnRyan]

What would LE hope to learn from Etter's autopsy that would be helpful in Delphi's case?

Yes, I believe we all have wondered that, but LE has never said why. Or were they trying to cover as many bases as possible given that they couldn't question him. Is a DNA analysis part of an autopsy? Or maybe what LE really wanted was tissue samples and not really the autopsy report by itself? We just know LE was 'interested' in the autopsy.

 

[almagata]

I’ve always had an issue with shooting deaths. People were there on the trails that day. Someone would have heard that. It’s possible that info hasn’t been leaked out by any witness, but I’d think someone would have let that slip, so that is why I’m doubtful a gun was used to commit the murders. Nothing to back that up, just MOO

I live in California and I hike a lot at the lake near my home. I hear gun shots frequently. One side of the lake is very populated and the other side of the lake has about twenty ranches. Gun shots come from the ranches and the sound moves across the lake. I don't think anything about the gun shots unless they are firing off a massive number of rounds. Sometimes it sounds like they are target shooting because I will hear periodic shots over an hour or so. Other times it is just a shot or two and I assume they are shooting at coyotes or putting down ill livestock.

The only time I can remember a specific shooting event in the past twenty years is when I was walking with my mother and some guys were out quail shooting and some of their shotgun shot kicked up the dirt within a few feet of us.

My point is that gun shots out in wild areas and ranch land are not very memorable unless they are very close by.

 

[JnRyan]

I’ve always had an issue with shooting deaths. People were there on the trails that day. Someone would have heard that. It’s possible that info hasn’t been leaked out by any witness, but I’d think someone would have let that slip, so that is why I’m doubtful a gun was used to commit the murders. Nothing to back that up, just MOO

I think about that, too. No word if anyone heard any gun shots. But spending summers on a midwest farm, I know gun shots are not unusual and after a while I didn't pay any attention to them. If it is something other than two quick shots, wouldn't one of the girls screamed for help? No word about that point. But would it have been dismissed as someone playing?