Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #117

[sleuther0192837465]

I live in California and I hike a lot at the lake near my home. I hear gun shots frequently. One side of the lake is very populated and the other side of the lake has about twenty ranches. Gun shots come from the ranches and the sound moves across the lake. I don't think anything about the gun shots unless they are firing off a massive number of rounds. Sometimes it sounds like they are target shooting because I will hear periodic shots over an hour or so. Other times it is just a shot or two and I assume they are shooting at coyotes or putting down ill livestock.

The only time I can remember a specific shooting event in the past twenty years is when I was walking with my mother and some guys were out quail shooting and some of their shotgun shot kicked up the dirt within a few feet of us.

My point is that gun shots out in wild areas and ranch land are not very memorable unless they are very close by.

I could see forgetting weeks or months later, but I believe these witnesses were interviewed very shortly after the girls were found. I think they’d remember hearing gun shots. MOO

 

[sleuther0192837465]

I think about that, too. No word if anyone heard any gun shots. But spending summers on a midwest farm, I know gun shots are not unusual and after a while I didn't pay any attention to them. If it is something other than two quick shots, wouldn't one of the girls screamed for help? No word about that point. But would it have been dismissed as someone playing?

IMO Because these witnesses were interviewed early on, I feel that knowing the girls were found, it’d be fresh in their minds enough to recall hearing them. MOO

 

[sleuther0192837465]

Were the murders on the video

James Renner interview with Sheriff Tobe Leazenby.

Q. Have you listened to the full audio, the full Snapchat that was captured?
A. I have. I have.

Q. What is that like?
A. I hate to be somewhat clichéd but it’s - obviously I hear people voice. (ui) say whether or not that’s the face of evil in that picture, yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, we’re still in the mindset of we have to still look at the big picture here as far as was someone else involved along with this individual.

Q. Is there anything on – that leads you to believe that?
A. No.

Q. You just don’t want to rule anything out at this point?
A. Right. Right. Yeah. ...

Q. Is the attack itself on the recording?
A. No.

BBM
I don't care for the way JR worded that question. Until i hear a direct statement from LE, not a run-on question with a blanketed answer, I am going with what LE has repeatedly, directly, stated. That the audio/video came from Libby's phone.
Not saying that it's not possible, but I have yet to hear SC mentioned as being the origin of the audio/video. That is JMOO

 

[southernswede]

Has LE ever confirmed that the girls texted about a "creepy guy"? I saw online where Libby's grandma answered "yes" when someone asked if the girls had mentioned him. I don't recall if authorities talked about it.
I'd be interested to know what time that "creepy guy" text came through in relation to the video of BG. I know Abby's pic on the bridge was at 2:07. Has LE ever said what time the video of BG was taken?
I too am puzzled why LE can't release more of BG walking on the bridge unless maybe that's all they have. Maybe the rest is just the audio.

 

[sleuther0192837465]

Has LE ever confirmed that the girls texted about a "creepy guy"? I saw online where Libby's grandma answered "yes" when someone asked if the girls had mentioned him. I don't recall if authorities talked about it.
I'd be interested to know what time that "creepy guy" text came through in relation to the video of BG. I know Abby's pic on the bridge was at 2:07. Has LE ever said what time the video of BG was taken?
I too am puzzled why LE can't release more of BG walking on the bridge unless maybe that's all they have. Maybe the rest is just the audio.

I have not heard LE state anything about a "creepy guy", but I am trying to find BP stating it...looking for it right now. MOO
ETA: Trying to go through BP's statements from videos, articles, interviews, etc. not finding it anywhere....not done looking, though.
ETA: Been looking for nearly an hour and can not find it anywhere. If someone has a link, transcript, etc. of a statement from BP or LE that states "creepy guy", please post it. MOO

 

[CSIDreamer]

Has LE ever confirmed that the girls texted about a "creepy guy"? I saw online where Libby's grandma answered "yes" when someone asked if the girls had mentioned him. I don't recall if authorities talked about it.
I'd be interested to know what time that "creepy guy" text came through in relation to the video of BG. I know Abby's pic on the bridge was at 2:07. Has LE ever said what time the video of BG was taken?
I too am puzzled why LE can't release more of BG walking on the bridge unless maybe that's all they have. Maybe the rest is just the audio.

I cantc recall the exact quote, but "creepy" seems to be urban legend. There was no text. The girls were recorded talking about something along the lines of "that guy".

 

[sleuther0192837465]

Something interesting. On www.abbyandlibby.org, the flyers have not been updated to reflect the NBG sketch.... Also on the website, under Case Details:
INVESTIGATION
On February 15, police released a photo of a man they wanted to speak to about the murders, but did not officially identify him as a suspect until February 19. Police later released an audio recording of the suspect allegedly saying “Down the hill”. The photo and voice recording were taken from German’s cell phone. Authorities have indicated that more evidence relating to the suspect was found on the phone, but it will not be released so as not to “compromise any future trial”. As of June 16, police had received an estimated 18,000 tips, with four to five new tips coming in daily.
BBM
MOO

 

[JnRyan]

I could see forgetting weeks or months later, but I believe these witnesses were interviewed very shortly after the girls were found. I think they’d remember hearing gun shots. MOO

I don't think it is a matter of forgetting, but rather maybe they didn't pay any attention to it at the time. I know I likely wouldn't have. And a .22 is not that loud.

 

[sleuther0192837465]

I live in California and I hike a lot at the lake near my home. I hear gun shots frequently. One side of the lake is very populated and the other side of the lake has about twenty ranches. Gun shots come from the ranches and the sound moves across the lake. I don't think anything about the gun shots unless they are firing off a massive number of rounds. Sometimes it sounds like they are target shooting because I will hear periodic shots over an hour or so. Other times it is just a shot or two and I assume they are shooting at coyotes or putting down ill livestock.

The only time I can remember a specific shooting event in the past twenty years is when I was walking with my mother and some guys were out quail shooting and some of their shotgun shot kicked up the dirt within a few feet of us.

My point is that gun shots out in wild areas and ranch land are not very memorable unless they are very close by.

I think about that, too. No word if anyone heard any gun shots. But spending summers on a midwest farm, I know gun shots are not unusual and after a while I didn't pay any attention to them. If it is something other than two quick shots, wouldn't one of the girls screamed for help? No word about that point. But would it have been dismissed as someone playing?

I wanted to add to this as well:
I live in an extremely rural area. Hunting & shooting is completely normal here.
One morning, I was sitting outside. I hear 2 gun shots...then an explosion, about 35 mins later, sirens.
Next day in the news, some dude set his garage on fire & shot himself.
Believe me, I hear M 80’s being set off, gun shots ALL the time up here but I’ll never forget hearing those shots that day, especially knowing right after what happened about a 1/4 of a mile away from me.
I don’t like talking about that incident, but there ya go, from my own experience. MOO

 

[sleuther0192837465]

I don't think it is a matter of forgetting, but rather maybe they didn't pay any attention to it at the time. I know I likely wouldn't have. And a .22 is not that loud.

That’s possible. MOO

 

[stattlich1]

Authorities have indicated that more evidence relating to the suspect was found on the phone, but it will not be released so as not to “compromise any future trial”. As of June 16, police had received an estimated 18,000 tips, with four to five new tips coming in daily.
BBM
MOO

Wow! Wondering what that "more evidence" might be.

More video and or photos of BG? What else could it be? And, if they've already released a snippet of voice, and vid, of the suspect, what other evidence could be on that phone that would compromise any future trial?

Also, if there is truth to the girls referencing "that guy" on the recording, then it would diminish my belief that they may have known him, unless he was disguised in some manner.

hmmmmmm.

 

[tresir2012]

Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #116

Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #116

Gray Hughes crime scene flow videos have been posted a number of times. While there are several more recent versions, I still find this one the easiest to watch. It was filmed just weeks after the murders. It’s a bit jumpy but was being filmed while JM was walking. It's only 15 minutes long and starts from the drop-off point. Once you turn left onto the main trail, you can fast forward over most of it if you wish and pick it up at 4:50 where you’ll see the barrier (not a gate.) GH used vines on the railway ties, forked trees and a bright spot/white “nodule” in order to place BG precisely. As more info became available he made two amendments: Reduced BG’s distance from the end of the bridge to approx. 60’ and stated that Libby had to be standing off the bridge in order to get the angle seen in the still.

The distances look much greater in the photos and video due to Libby’s phone having a wider angle lens and the image of BG was incredibly tiny before NASA did their handiwork.

LE released one image that shows a tiny piece of Abby’s jacket, and this was subsequently cropped when they released the 3 frames of BG walking.

The video continues down the hill. Note how shallow the water is. The crime scene is directly opposite and crime scene tape is visible.

Is there confirmation from LE that was Abby's jacket in a frame of the video?

 

[sleuther0192837465]

Wow! Wondering what that "more evidence" might be.

More video and or photos of BG? What else could it be? And, if they've already released a snippet of voice, and vid, of the suspect, what other evidence could be on that phone that would compromise any future trial?

Also, if there is truth to the girls referencing "that guy" on the recording, then it would diminish my belief that they may have known him, unless he was disguised in some manner.

hmmmmmm.

Might be only the words BG used. He could have said “You (guys) aren’t allowed on this bridge. You need to go (down the hill) & loop around”. As if he was some type of park ranger, or some type of authority or something. NOT SAYING I believe that, but it could be something very pointed...MOO
I believe it was BP that said Abby had asked Libby, “He’s behind me, isn’t he?” I can not find the source, so take it that with a grain of salt. If true, that is why it is believed that the girls had seen BG prior to that point on the bridge. MOO
I go back & forth between someone they knew, someone they only knew in passing, very well disguised but known, or total stranger. MOO

 

[sleuther0192837465]

Is there confirmation from LE that was Abby's jacket in a frame of the video?

I have not seen any confirmation of that from LE. MOO
ETA: IMHO I think that is either Libby (assuming she is moving, could be her hand is just unsteady) OR it is Abby & that is why LE is only showing us that small clip. I do believe at some point Abby is in the video because that is who Libby was really focusing on just prior to when we see BG. Again, MOO

 

[tresir2012]

That’s a damn good question!
ETA: You’d think if they were looking for tattoos or moles or something, that would have been mentioned in BG’s suspect description...hmmm....MOO

Ballistics from his gun and bullets perhaps? Do we know what calibre gun he used?

 

[sleuther0192837465]

Ballistics from his gun and bullets perhaps? Do we know what calibre gun he used?

Ohhhh good thought! I’m not sure. I didn’t dig around in Etter’s case, like I did with the others. MOO

 

[pearl]

I took a couple days completely away from my computer so I could do some personal and household chores. I came back today to find some excellent, thoughtful discussion. The one thing is I would like to know is if the killer gained control of Abby and Libby at the same time or one before the other. Although I do have a problem with spatial issues, I do think Abby and Libby were somewhat separated at times on the bridge. How far apart were the girls when Libby took the Snapchat photo of Abby? I wonder if the killer gained control of Abby first and used her as leverage to gain control of Libby. Perhaps, further audio recording would answer that. Best young girlfriends aren't likely to abandon each other. I am wondering if he already was controlling Abby when the "Down the hill" was said.

I like to keep things simple so these are my current thoughts:
The killer has detailed knowledge of the trails and bridge area. This comes from living in the area or being in the area often. I don't think this is the killer's first violent act. Maybe first murder, but I think he has committed violence against a female(s) before. Domestic abuse comes to mind. This person is self-confident. He came prepared to kill with whatever tools he used to do the murders, he killed, he left, and is still not arrested for this crime 2 3/4 years later. I think he was loitering and saw Kelsi drop off the girls or saw them early on the trails. I think they saw him at some point too. He decided the girls would be his targets. He followed them. I don't think the crime was random, but the victims were random. I think he meant to kill and was prepared to do it. If not that day, then he would return until he found victims. He could have come on earlier days too. Abby and Libby had the misfortune to fit his victim requirements. He gained control of them at the end of the bridge, forced them to where he killed them, did the deed, and walked away.

I also think LE has their suspect.

 

[sleuther0192837465]

I took a couple days completely away from my computer so I could do some personal and household chores. I came back today to find some excellent, thoughtful discussion. The one thing is I would like to know is if the killer gained control of Abby and Libby at the same time or one before the other. Although I do have a problem with spatial issues, I do think Abby and Libby were somewhat separated at times on the bridge. How far apart were the girls when Libby took the Snapchat photo of Abby? I wonder if the killer gained control of Abby first and used her as leverage to gain control of Libby. Perhaps, further audio recording would answer that. Best young girlfriends aren't likely to abandon each other. I am wondering if he already was controlling Abby when the "Down the hill" was said.

I like to keep things simple so these are my current thoughts:
The killer has detailed knowledge of the trails and bridge area. This comes from living in the area or being in the area often. I don't think this is the killer's first violent act. Maybe first murder, but I think he has committed violence against a female(s) before. Domestic abuse comes to mind. This person is self-confident. He came prepared to kill with whatever tools he used to do the murders, he killed, he left, and is still not arrested for this crime 2 3/4 years later. I think he was loitering and saw Kelsi drop off the girls or saw them early on the trails. I think they saw him at some point too. He decided the girls would be his targets. He followed them. I don't think the crime was random, but the victims were random. I think he meant to kill and was prepared to do it. If not that day, then he would return until he found victims. He could have come on earlier days too. Abby and Libby had the misfortune to fit his victim requirements. He gained control of them at the end of the bridge, forced them to where he killed them, did the deed, and walked away.

I also think LE has their suspect.

@pearl Excellent post!

 

[southernswede]

BBM
I don't care for the way JR worded that question. Until i hear a direct statement from LE, not a run-on question with a blanketed answer, I am going with what LE has repeatedly, directly, stated. That the audio/video came from Libby's phone.
Not saying that it's not possible, but I have yet to hear SC mentioned as being the origin of the audio/video. That is JMOO

She uploaded her pics and videos to SC.

I took a couple days completely away from my computer so I could do some personal and household chores. I came back today to find some excellent, thoughtful discussion. The one thing is I would like to know is if the killer gained control of Abby and Libby at the same time or one before the other. Although I do have a problem with spatial issues, I do think Abby and Libby were somewhat separated at times on the bridge. How far apart were the girls when Libby took the Snapchat photo of Abby? I wonder if the killer gained control of Abby first and used her as leverage to gain control of Libby. Perhaps, further audio recording would answer that. Best young girlfriends aren't likely to abandon each other. I am wondering if he already was controlling Abby when the "Down the hill" was said.

I like to keep things simple so these are my current thoughts:
The killer has detailed knowledge of the trails and bridge area. This comes from living in the area or being in the area often. I don't think this is the killer's first violent act. Maybe first murder, but I think he has committed violence against a female(s) before. Domestic abuse comes to mind. This person is self-confident. He came prepared to kill with whatever tools he used to do the murders, he killed, he left, and is still not arrested for this crime 2 3/4 years later. I think he was loitering and saw Kelsi drop off the girls or saw them early on the trails. I think they saw him at some point too. He decided the girls would be his targets. He followed them. I don't think the crime was random, but the victims were random. I think he meant to kill and was prepared to do it. If not that day, then he would return until he found victims. He could have come on earlier days too. Abby and Libby had the misfortune to fit his victim requirements. He gained control of them at the end of the bridge, forced them to where he killed them, did the deed, and walked away.

I also think LE has their suspect.[/QUOTE

I completely agree with your current thoughts; I could have written that paragraph. I don't they have their suspect though.

 

[sleuther0192837465]

She uploaded her pics and videos to SC.

I understand the photo she took of Abby was uploaded to SC. But I can’t find a statement directly from LE saying the audio/video of BG specifically was uploaded to SC. Do you have a link? I can’t find one anywhere. Because if Libby did, others would have been able to view it, correct? MOO