IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #6

[JulieBEMT]

This is what I know.
There is the different classes.

Voyager was built on September 1977 and was classed as the first of the mega ships.
Freedom was built on 4 June 2006
The Freedom class is very similar design but larger than the Voyager class. Both have these opening windows.

We’ll be going on the Ovation late Feb, it was built in 2016 so it’s a lot newer and a lot bigger.

iirc the Ovation does not have opening windows but I’m sure the window design was not changed because of danger.

I’ll take photos of the pool windows for comparison.

Ovation is a Quantum class ship. It is a completely different animal than the Freedom and Voyager class ships. They aren't a whole lot bigger than Freedom class ships; especially when you look at Oasis class which is a LOT bigger. It's always felt to me as if they built Freedom class as a larger Voyager class, and Oasis class as a much larger Freedom class. But Quantum, Anthem, Ovation and the upcoming Odyssey are all laid out much differently than the other ships.

 

[MsBetsy]

I thought when I saw the video that was when SA was thinking about what he was about to do to Chloe. JMO

I think it's impossible to know what he was thinking.

Perhaps the biggest problem was that he did not think at all. He obviously did not consider ahead of time the potential danger of lifting her high over the railing and putting her in such a precarious position.

I don't think he was planning on intentionally throwing his grand child out of the window.
I'm thinking LE investigated thoroughly before charging him with negligent homicide. We don't know about all the evidence they have or how many people they interviewed but if there was any indication that he murdered her or that he planned her death I don't think this guy is intelligent enough to outsmart LE and get away with murder.

There just isn't any evidence to suggest he wanted his granddaughter dead.

Imo

 

[Montrealaise]

I think it's impossible to know what he was thinking.

Perhaps the biggest problem was that he did not think at all. He obviously did not consider ahead of time the potential danger of lifting her high over the railing and putting her in such a precarious position.

I don't think he was planning on intentionally throwing his grand child out of the window.
I'm thinking LE investigated thoroughly before charging him with negligent homicide. We don't know about all the evidence they have or how many people they interviewed but if there was any indication that he murdered her or that he planned her death I don't think this guy is intelligent enough to outsmart LE and get away with murder.

There just isn't any evidence to suggest he wanted his granddaughter dead.

Imo

I just do not understand people who think that SA's actions were intentional. I've read many news items of parents who did idiotic, reckless things with their kids: the mom who sent her 2-year-old out to play, unsupervised, in a backyard which was not fenced in; the father who left his toddler alone with his brother's pitbull, just to name two recent Canadian examples. Both instances ended tragically, but nobody ever suggested those parents intended their child to die. Can we just accept that some people are terminally stupid?

 

[Montrealaise]

SA returns to court next Monday, January 27. Let's see if he has changed his mind about accepting a plea deal.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

With the Oasis fall it's being described as a 'clean jump' caught on video, so it was an overt act rather than accidental. If anything this supports RCCL with their basic stance of someone acting negligently for there to be a fall.

 

[wackyw]

SA returns to court next Monday, January 27. Let's see if he has changed his mind about accepting a plea deal.

Oooh, thanks for that.

Yep, will be interesting. He'll be accompanied/represented by the lawyers retained in San Juan won't he? I don't I've seen any previous statement from them, but then I am a latecomer. I wonder if MW will be sweating, or if he's in the loop.

And the PRLE? They might go all Columbo on him ! "Mr SA, due to the public scrutiny on this one, and for your safety, we have constructed a glass safety dock/cell for you. If you can just go sit in there, please". The glass will be tinted blue, but the door aperture will have no glass in. If he goes straight through the door aperture then "AH HA !!!!!!". "Just one more question Sir ...... how do you like your prison eggs?". PRLE and RCCL can then get on with their lives. Of course he may realise the trap and go feeling round the courtroom like some demented mime artist.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

From what I recall, he said “I dropped my child”. That’s all I know of that he said right afterwards.

My baby is what I recall. Might make a difference.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

Oooh, thanks for that.

Yep, will be interesting. He'll be accompanied/represented by the lawyers retained in San Juan won't he? I don't I've seen any previous statement from them, but then I am a latecomer. I wonder if MW will be sweating, or if he's in the loop.

And the PRLE? They might go all Columbo on him ! "Mr SA, due to the public scrutiny on this one, and for your safety, we have constructed a glass safety dock/cell for you. If you can just go sit in there, please". The glass will be tinted blue, but the door aperture will have no glass in. If he goes straight through the door aperture then "AH HA !!!!!!". "Just one more question Sir ...... how do you like your prison eggs?". PRLE and RCCL can then get on with their lives. Of course he may realise the trap and go feeling round the courtroom like some demented mime artist.

Demented mime artist. Agreed.

 

[Forever Young]

(AND) Why squat down in the sun just steps away from the shade?

Obviously he didn’t want to stand or couldn’t stand, he had to squat in the sun. Couldn’t bend over to speak with Chloe. Right there, right then.

I've puzzled over this, too. Why didn't he move into the shade? Instead went into the squat. Someone else on here mentioned children doing that was indicative of a heart problem. When he does get to the railing, my interpretation, he almost flops onto it, and allows the railing to support him.

 

[justbreathe]

Game show.

$500,000,000.00 question.

Which windows are opened?

This is a very hard question so take your time to think.


View attachment 227465
View attachment 227466

None. I only see a wall of glass.

 

[justbreathe]

No it wasn’t opened but the bars allow air flow, it has no glass.
My point was did Chloe go to that to look out and feel the breeze.
IIRC it has a padlock.

It also has glass, it isn’t just open to the elements where kids can crawl and drop stuff?

 

[Forever Young]

Your logic does not make sense. By your reasoning, if someone throws a child into a boiling pot of water, the boiling pot of water is partially responsible.

That is not my reasoning. It is an opinion from a judge in California. The case, yes, was one case, in a different state, but quoted case law from approximately 6-7 prior cases.

I've looked around a little bit more, but so far, haven't found a case that well detailed. I was quoting from it to show how judges reason on deciding issues of fact at trial. Just because it came out of California, does not prevent a lawyer in Florida from using the same line of reasoning. New decisions = new laws.

In the example you give, it would more be as if there was always a pot of boiling water, and the owners of the pot and most guests knew about it, and they knew the inherent danger except for one person, who says he did not.

 

[Forever Young]

No, unless she could retrieve and climb a ladder.

I was not referring to just Chloe. I mean any other child or person, no matter how they got there, could they have also fell from that window. Was it wide enough for any other child to have fallen from it, under different circumstances?

 

[Forever Young]

I do not believe this is intentional yet. I still believe SA is just a dumb butt.

I still need a motive. I don't see evidence yet of him/them needing money.

Speaking of money, I'm not sure if I've said this out loud yet, but I keep wondering why we haven't heard from witnesses who want their 15 minutes of fame. Usually when there are cases like this that make national headlines, people come out of the woodwork to talk about what they heard and saw. Even bystanders who add no value but can say they saw them board the ship or something like that.

It seems unusual in this day and age to have such a tight lid on information.

I would imagine that if those persons will be expected to testify at trial, they have been instructed not to talk to the press about it.

 

[Forever Young]

Relying on just one case? Putting all of your eggs in one basket is dangerous. Diversify your portfolio. You’ll get a better rate of return on your investment. It’s safer. And no egg on your face, either.

As I previously elaborated, the one case quotes decisions from 6 or 7 previous cases, which is evident in the quotes that I snipped.

 

[Forever Young]

I may be wrong, but IMO, there will be no changes made to the existing windows on deck 11 or any similar windows on other decks because 1. There is nothing unsafe about the current windows; 2. Changing the windows would be a costly and unnecessary renovation considering there is nothing wrong with the current design; and 3. If they change the current windows, that may look like they are admitting the windows were a “danger.” JMO

Actually, it would not be of great expense to modify the windows with a wooden bar or thumbscrew to prevent them from opening more than the 4 inches that prevent a child from going through. Would the cost of modification be greater or less compared to the value of a child's life?

 

[Forever Young]

Glass. Frost, Paint, Decals?
@they'll get you Yes, great idea for glass doors and floor to ceiling windows, and other windows too.

Not sure about this particular situation w SA. Let's say, there had been a frosted spot or decal (2"x 2" or 4"x 4"?) on middle of every pane. The wall has one window at eye-level, which was opened by a pane sliding to the side, presumably w 2" or 6" of pane w handle still visible in that frame. That pane's spot or decal was slid into next window frame. IOW ~ 2" to 6 " of glass showing in that frame. So when SA approaches this ^, how is it different to him, different from what he encountered in July? Is there reason he would have noticed spots on other windows and said to himself, Danger, this window frame has no spot/decal in the middle, so must be an open window. Danger. Will Robinson. Warning. Danger.

If he failed to detect that as an open window in July, not sure how spots or decals in other panes would have helped him. That is, if he was being truthful in stating he 'thought there was glass.'
If he did not feel the wind, hear the noises from dock below, or notice any salt air, the man was just pain oblivious, for whatever reason or cause. Or not truthful. imo.
ETA: @they'll get you. Thank you for the helpful photos.

Decals would not be the only solution.

 

[Forever Young]

View attachment 227295

The windows are not squeaky clean. It’s impossible to keep them clean & that’s why I took this photo to show the dirt and salt spray on the windows.

To me it was a blind Freddy moment between an open and closed window.

I hope the jurors see the windows in an ‘everyday’ environment.

Yes, and then they need to see what those windows would look like to a colorblind person - most commonly the inability to see "green".

 

[MsMarple]

My baby is what I recall. Might make a difference.

"It may be hard for some people to believe that the grandpa didn't know that that section of the window was open. … How did he know that there was glass?" Begnaud asked.

"The only way that you can prove or disprove anything that Sam said is based on the video and based on his testimony … Those are the only pieces of evidence you have," Winkleman said. "There were no eye witnesses. There's no one who's come forward to tell any different story. … So all you have is Sam's testimony, his story and the video."

After Chloe fell out of the window, Anello drops to his knees, according to Winkleman, and he yelled out loud, "I just dropped my child. I thought there was glass! I thought there was glass!"
Video shows girl's final moments with grandfather before cruise ship death
My bolding. Once again we're relying on Winkleman's version of events but according to him SA did say it.

 

[In vino veritas]

Actually, it would not be of great expense to modify the windows with a wooden bar or thumbscrew to prevent them from opening more than the 4 inches that prevent a child from going through. Would the cost of modification be greater or less compared to the value of a child's life?

Again, IMO, there is no need to modify the windows. They have enough safety features as they are. This situation has never happened before, and likely will never happen again.
Furthermore, the window, as currently designed, is safer than the railing on open decks. What is to prevent someone( child) from moving furniture or being lifted onto those railings?? It all boils down to personal caution, supervision and responsibility. IMO