IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #6

[justbreathe]

Not if the windows in question are remedied to be prevented from opening more than 4 inches.

Over deck 12 they go. Oops. Those rails are unsafe!

 

[fabvab]

That's why Mr Winkleman used that tall, very skinny adult doll. If he had used a realistic toddler doll, like the Reborn Toddler Doll, it could not have fit on that ledge with the window closed.

Better yet, a Reborn Toddler Doll that squirms and wiggles like a real toddler being held that high up!

 

[mheido67]

Law on a cruise ship (or any other ship) starts with the flag the ship is flying under. ... So when a ship is docked at the Port of Miami, all U.S. (and Florida) laws apply to the ship, its passengers and its crew.
Once a ship is 24 miles from any coastline, it's on the high seas (or international waters). With the exception of certain rights within the contiguous zone, the law of that ship is the law of the country whose flag it's flying. So, a Liberia-registered cruise ship that's 25 miles off the coast of California isn't subject to U.S. law; it's subject to Liberian law.
If I'm on a cruise ship, what laws do I have to adhere to?

I’ll be interested to see how this comes down regarding whether US building codes and guidelines can be said to apply.

 

[mheido67]

I would say that typically, even a newborn baby's head could not breach a 4 inch opening.

I also doubt a scheming stepdad could convince too many people that the lad somehow managed to slip through the 4” opening unbeknownst to him.

 

[Wicked Strong]

DME

 

[kay74]

NO NO NO this is not true . The toddlers grandfather lifted her onto a safety rail and beyond , using one arm at a point , and after 34 secs lost his grip and the child plunged through a clearly open window . News outlets want a sensational story it seems . GF reckless behaviour caused this not CC . IMOO

NO NO NO this is not true . The toddlers grandfather lifted her onto a safety rail and beyond , using one arm at a point , and after 34 secs lost his grip and the child plunged through a clearly open window . News outlets want a sensational story it seems . GF reckless behaviour caused this not CC . IMOO

NO NO NO this is not true . The toddlers grandfather lifted her onto a safety rail and beyond , using one arm at a point , and after 34 secs lost his grip and the child plunged through a clearly open window . News outlets want a sensational story it seems . GF reckless behaviour caused this not CC . IMOO

Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

There is now a precedence.
It’s now a possibility it can happen again.

imo the colour blindness came from this site and I really don’t want to give Winkleman another angle.

IF SA is truly color blind and IF it truly impaired his vision to the point where he could not distinguish what was five inches in front of his face, then I am thrilled that WS brought that to the world’s attention. SA is entitled to mitigating reasons to defend his criminal case. It is his right to defend himself.
Now, on the other hand, I’m equally as thrilled to present to the world through the combined efforts of WS the preposterous reasons promoted on his behalf by Winkleman and SA family. The total absurdity, utter disregard of the baby’s life and sheer stupidity exhibited by SA, mandates punishment. Better yet removal from society. He might pick up another baby, and accidentally/on purpose/not looking for a window/forgetting there is a floor, drop the innocent to a horrifying death.

 

[kay74]

Link?

No it was one of hundreds of posts on a news outlet that someone made. It caught my eye and made we wonder if that was true. I'm seeing on here it was not.

 

[JulieBEMT]

As for the "measurements" taken by MW and team, do they really think RCCL doesn't know the exact height, angle and distance of every railing, window, chair and table on that ship? Do they think the Naval Architects, Marine Engineers, builders and designers just guessed when creating the ship?

 

[kay74]

That window doesn't 'pop' open, it slides open. It can't slide open by itself.

If it had 'popped' open it would have been broken, and would have fallen off the hinges, and landed on the deck below.

That window did not 'pop' open. JMO

I didn't say it. Someone posted that on a news outlet. I brought it up here to see if it was true.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

I’ll be interested to see how this comes down regarding whether US building codes and guidelines can be said to apply.

I’m sure that was decided a hundred years ago. The law book’s just under here, somewhere....

Seriously. Probably cast in stone. Like flag of country of ownership. Probably basic maritime law.
Maybe like cars? If you want to import a “grey” car from Europe, you still need to comply with our emissions laws when it arrives here.

 

[fabvab]

Having sat in these chairs thousands of times, I did not notice them to be any higher than "normal chairs." As someone who's had multiple knee and back surgeries, I would certainly have noticed if they were a full six inches higher than the industry standard, ADA compliance height of 19 inches! They are really grasping at straws now.

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The guy has the bottom of the tape by the back leg and is angling it toward the front leg which doesn’t give an accurate measure of how high seat is. Or at least that is what I see. Correct me if I’m wrong.

 

[Forever Young]

And the reenactment from the ship at night had the officer seeming to demonstrate holding Chloe the same way as in MW’s reenactment.

In the nighttime video from le he opens his hands after shaking them up and down while in the “hold chloe straight out in front of me.” As if she was just let go.

Wasn't that the animation that La Comay aired? Just don't recall seeing LE doing that.

 

[Forever Young]

Agreed. Also, what about any railings whatsoever.... Railings going down stairs, railings by the elevators gaps, railings on the 2nd levels of theaters. Etc... stuff can happen if you are reckless.

Yes, and don't you imagine that there would be lawsuits ensuing? It's just about a given.

 

[Forever Young]

It's okay to have a different opinion. If you didn't play devil's advocate, I'm sure somebody else would. I think it's great to get on here and be able to respectfully have a good debate.

As a pastor once told me "Any dead fish can float down stream".

What makes you strong is swimming up stream.

 

[justice4allnow]

This is the photo that I'm talking about; 2 of you have said LE did a reenactment of what Sam told them. Same photo we are all referencing?

 

[justbreathe]

As for the "measurements" taken by MW and team, do they really think RCCL doesn't know the exact height, angle and distance of every railing, window, chair and table on that ship? Do they think the Naval Architects, Marine Engineers, builders and designers just guessed when creating the ship?

Who are you gonna believe - marine engineers or MW’s wonky measuring tape?

 

[justbreathe]

View attachment 227822 This is the photo that I'm talking about; 2 of you have said LE did a reenactment of what Sam told them. Same photo we are all referencing?

Yes, but I feel like I saw a video...

If there is no video that is interesting to me, because in my mind I can literally see him moving up and down then opening his hands and fingers wide...

And if there is no video I made that all up in my mind from a picture...

 

[Snoods]

And a “harrowing on board reconstruction”. Ought to be “harrowingly fake onboard reconstruction ”. SMH

Harrowing for the guy whose arms they had to bisect to make it appear he couldn’t reach out the window.

 

[JerseySleuth17]

If you look at the 101 page ship report (see PDF link on Page 71) on page 18 of that document is a very clear photo of the wall of windows taken by SA's legal counsel during the enactment. It shows VERY clearly that there was NO impediment to CW reaching the lower portion of the glass. CW could have very easily walked right up to the lower level of glass and banged her heart out. No barriers, nothing. It defies all logic that SA felt he had to lift her up and over the upper railing so she could do this. It's just totally inconsistent with the layout of the windows.

Also, if you look at the RC footage it looks like he's leaning out the window. That is because the angle of the camera puts the white vertical pole in the foreground, it's the white pole that is blocking seeing his body, at one point in the video he rests his hand against it. On the other hand, in the "renactment" photo, the guy's feet are placed much further back so he is leaning forward on the railing, gee no way I could be looking out the window. But if you move yourself up closer to the railing yes I think it's possible you could poke your head out the window.

Look at page 47 of the report, which is a photo of the measurement from the outside edge of the window ("air") to the railing. SA's court papers all say oh the window was 18 inches from the railing, that's a huge gap no way could he dangle CW outside. But if you look at page 47, it's actually 6 inches of window frame and then at inch 15 you hit the railing. Meaning it was only about 9 inches (NOT 18") from the window sill ledge to the wood railing. A grown man wouldn't even have to fully extend his arm for something he is holding to hit the window sill my forearm and hand from elbow to fingers is longer than 9 inches! A MUCH smaller gap than the legal papers allege.