IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #6

[Wehwalt]

Please pardon my ignorance of the law and all it’s nuances, because I’m not sure I understand why RCCL, in the motion to dismiss, would not have included additional incriminating evidence proving SA’s culpability?

SA is not a party to the lawsuit, at least at this time. RCCL did not hit SA as hard as it could have, but remember this is a motion before a judge, not a jury, and it is facing a hostile media situation and does not want to be accused of abusing surviving relatives in a terrible tragedy. It did what it had to do in the motion.

 

[neesaki]

That is the physically impossible moment, IMO. It is exactly what they are arguing against.

What ? But SA pulled himself through the window opening with his arms, hoisted himself out far enough to look out, and down.... (as indicated that his face was looking down )....
He sure wasn't hoisting himself to look down at the floor of the ship, no reason to do that, right? Nope, I don't think so.

ETA: Does anyone have a screenshot of that part of the video showing SA putting his arms through the window opening, then bending over and looking out ? I'm not sure how to do it. TIA

 

[mheido67]

Please pardon my ignorance of the law and all it’s nuances, because I’m not sure I understand why RCCL, in the motion to dismiss, would not have included additional incriminating evidence proving SA’s culpability?

Perhaps they don’t have any?

RCCL made two arguments. First, that there was no reason for them to believe that the windows created a foreseeable danger. They presented a number of case law references in support of this. Since there was no reason for them to consider it a danger they claim they can’t be held negligent for not doing anything to address it. This argument has nothing to do with SA’s actions. It’s a purely legal argument about the conditions as they existed on the ship.

Second they argued that the conditions did not pose a danger to a person who acted reasonably. Just like a standard railing doesn’t pose a danger to anyone who doesn’t climb on it or over it. As they see it SA acted unreasonably when he placed CW over the safety railing and near what he should have seen was clearly an open window based on his very close proximity to it.

They have stated to the court that they do not have any additional video that shows the incident so I highly doubt they are sitting on anything that is more damning than what has already been made public.

 

[they'll get you]

They have shown that they can "reach" their hand or arm out the window. They have not shown that they can reach their entire upper body out the window, which is RCCL says SA did. To do that, their feet would have to leave the floor. I have not seen any evidence to the contrary. IMO

Im a witness to the fact you can do it safely.
I’m 5’4” and I can stand on that little 4” ledge on tippy toes and take a photo with my elbows and head out and look down and around. Hubby is 6’4” and it’s a snap for him.
I’m kicking myself for not getting a photo to prove me or anyone else doing it.
Imo SA leaned at a 90 degree angle out that window.

 

[MsMarple]

View attachment 227822 This is the photo that I'm talking about; 2 of you have said LE did a reenactment of what Sam told them. Same photo we are all referencing?

I think so. Here's one of the videos that include that scene. Starts around the 0:35 mark. There are others but this is the best one I could find right now. I believe these are LE officers.

 

[neesaki]

No, I am just presenting the other side of the case.

IMO, Not sure he can actually be proved to be lying. The simplest explanation might be that he really did think there was glass there, and what does that mean, if he is not lying about that?

They really do seem to be a close-knit and loving family, seemed to love Chloe with all their hearts.

I know everyone, myself included has experienced a lot of anger over the death of that poor little innocent girl and look for an explanation for how this could happen. However it happened, awareness should be raised about it, IMO, through discussion.

I really appreciate your response. It seems heartfelt. Awareness is good. Especially on watching our children and keeping them safe.

And I'm sure they all did love Chloe with all their hearts. At least, those family members that really knew each other. But, just a thought.... there are always some family members that everyone thinks they know... yet no one ever really knows.

Just one last thing... SA knew there was glass.

 

[neesaki]

I have reconsidered it, many times. I can be persuaded, I can change my mind. FYI, my first impression was murder. But that's what happens when conclusions are made before reviewing all the evidence.

While it is said that a picture is worth a thousand words, we've all heard of photoshop. And videos can be deceptive. I'm not saying photoshop was involved here, not at all. I'm just saying the old adage that a picture does not lie, cannot be taken literally in this day and age.

But to re-iterate, my current position is not, by any means, what my first impression was.

Why?

 

[Forever Young]

^This is before SA lifts Chloe. SA leans on railing with elbows and forearms. Backside arched behind railing.

See the railing in the lower right corner. It runs beneath his elbows and forearms, behind the white poles. Brackets run in the gap and attach to windows. Where brackets ends shows where glass begins. Glass angles outward and away from SA.

Compare to 5:25 mark, when SA first approaches the railing, seen from the back. Leans on railing with elbows and forearms.

Compare to reenactment, man leaning on railing with elbows and forearms, backside arched out, looking straight down.
@5:25

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=754098988428111

 

[Forever Young]

Why?

Because I did not come to a conclusion at that point. In light of additional evidence, I may come to a different conclusion.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

They have shown that they can "reach" their hand or arm out the window. They have not shown that they can reach their entire upper body out the window, which is RCCL says SA did. To do that, their feet would have to leave the floor. I have not seen any evidence to the contrary. IMO

So SA bends over the railing at his waist line. So 8 inches below belt line and 8 inches above belt line would be about his middle of the body. I’m thinking chest height and higher would be what RCCL is referring too. So nope, he can have his chest and shoulders over and out of window.
The guy measuring the distances on Winkleman’s video would clearly be able to reach over railing, space, window track, and out. W. gave us the best piece of evidence with the measuring guy. Easy to see incredibly easy to reach outside of window. That short legged guy was specially chosen. Unfortunately, we are a pretty clever group of people. He’s not 71 in. tall like W wants us to think. I subtracted the 3 inches from top and 3 from bottom in leveling out his tape measure. Plus there’s more wiggle room bc tape bending and twisting. Adding false length. Instead of a 6’ 1“ tall actor, the guy is probably 5 ft 6 in. tall. Pretty short for a man. Average American male is 5 10”
Yes. Adding the 7 inches from the bottom so he can lift himself up over the railing is pretty sad. Grasping at straws.

 

[they'll get you]

^This is before SA lifts Chloe. SA leans on railing with elbows and forearms. Backside arched behind railing.

See the railing in the lower right corner. It runs beneath his elbows and forearms, behind the white poles. Brackets run in the gap and attach to windows. Where brackets ends shows where glass begins. Glass angles outward and away from SA.

Compare to 5:25 mark, when SA first approaches the railing, seen from the back. Leans on railing with elbows and forearms.

Compare to reenactment, man leaning on railing with elbows and forearms, backside arched out, looking straight down.
@5:25

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=754098988428111

Then @ 6:40 a woman looks out and down. Out the window.

 

[Forever Young]

So SA bends over the railing at his waist line. So 8 inches below belt line and 8 inches above belt line would be about his middle of the body. I’m thinking chest height and higher would be what RCCL is referring too. So nope, he can have his chest and shoulders over and out of window.
The guy measuring the distances on Winkleman’s video would clearly be able to reach over railing, space, window track, and out. W. gave us the best piece of evidence with the measuring guy. Easy to see incredibly easy to reach outside of window. That short legged guy was specially chosen. Unfortunately, we are a pretty clever group of people. He’s not 71 in. tall like W wants us to think. I subtracted the 3 inches from top and 3 from bottom in leveling out his tape measure. Plus there’s more wiggle room bc tape bending and twisting. Adding false length. Instead of a 6’ 1“ tall actor, the guy is probably 5 ft 6 in. tall. Pretty short for a man. Average American male is 5 10”
Yes. Adding the 7 inches from the bottom so he can lift himself up over the railing is pretty sad. Grasping at straws.

How can he be bent over the railing at the waist when his waist is visible behind the railing in this first shot? The railing leads directly beneath his elbows. Follow the perspective, follow the brown railing from right corner of the picture, like a ladder, running up beneath his elbows.

 

[Andreee]

Oh boy, idk, but this whole thing, has gone on a bit. Maybe there’s something we’re missing? But, it does seem you are leaning toward protecting SA. Am I wrong?

My hubby said the same but he said ‘he murdered her’.
We both know those windows well as we’ve been on the Voyager and Explorer several times and we’ve both leaned over and out to take photos.
I was in fear of dropping my phone, glasses or hat. Not in our wildest nightmares would we put a child up there - EVER.

Were you able to put your head out the window or if you didn't, would you think you would've been able to?

 

[Andreee]

Then @ 6:40 a woman looks out and down. Out the window.

Yes, it really does look in the video like the stepgrandfather leans right over from his waist, but it would be helpful, for maybe the jury or judge to have the chance to go on board a ship with an identical window setup to check it out firsthand. What I keep noticing is the 'wide sweep' of the arms of the stepgrandfather when he lifts and actively swings her (without hesitation) over the railing. Could that indicate he thought there was glass?

 

[JulieBEMT]

I am just going by the evidence presented, and since no murder charge was brought against SA, I have to assume that LE investigated and ruled that out.

I don't think they ruled it out, so much as decided it would be too hard to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.

Every time I come back, there are so many comments to read that I lose track of my questions and comments before I get to the end.

Earlier, someone made a comment to the effect of "IF the lawyer could withdraw from the case." Does this mean that a lawyer, working on contingency, in a civil case cannot?

I will be on Adventure of the Seas at the end of next month. I will be sure to see if I can lean out, and take a picture.

 

[Montrealaise]

Yes, it really does look in the video like the stepgrandfather leans right over from his waist, but it would be helpful, for maybe the jury or judge to have the chance to go on board a ship with an identical window setup to check it out firsthand. What I keep noticing is the 'wide sweep' of the arms of the stepgrandfather when he lifts and actively swings her (without hesitation) over the railing. Could that indicate he thought there was glass?

The only way to answer that question is to have an exact re-enactment of SA's actions, with a man of his height and body type copying his positions exactly, first the one where he looks out the window and then the one where he swings her up to the window. Then do the re-enactment again - this time with a closed window, and see how far it takes for him to hit the glass.

 

[LietKynes]

Oh boy, idk, but this whole thing, has gone on a bit. Maybe there’s something we’re missing? But, it does seem you are leaning toward protecting SA. Am I wrong?

People protect when they stand to lose something.

 

[al66pine]

ASTM 'Standards.'

I’ll be interested to see how this comes down regarding whether US building codes and guidelines can be said to apply.

@mheido67 Wondering if you, as an architect, have had occasion to read and/or interpret any ASTM standards, to determine whether your client's design/project needed to comply w them.
An example:
The ASTM Notes, issued w standard itself, state, it applies to windows installed in "multiple family apartment buildings."
1. Scope
1.3 This safety specification applies only to devices intended to be applied to windows installed at heights of more than 75 ft 7 (23 m) above ground level in multiple family dwelling buildings...."
^ from ASTM F2006 - 17 Standard Safety Specification for Window Fall Prevention Devices for Non-Emergency Escape (Egress) and Rescue (Ingress) Windows bbm

ETA: re ASTM organization. ASTM International - Wikipedia

 

[they'll get you]

Were you able to put your head out the window or if you didn't, would you think you would've been able to?

Most definitely did, shoulders, head & arms to take photos.

 

[LietKynes]

Just had my hubby watch this video. He told me to be quiet and not say anything, so I didn't. No explanations. Here's his response:

"He threw the baby out the window... that sorry SOB.... "
Then he got up and walked out. Then, back in...
"the question is why". Then he said,
"it had to be a vendetta, vengeance. There's more to it than meets the eye. "
"who's it going to hurt the worst " ?

https://video-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v...=de4c52406978f61b76ba2c67dc952e61&oe=5E8E5E71

bbm
@neesaki : Re. the bolded ; It looks like your husband is asking the wrong question.
More like who has something to gain ?
And, no, it's not the fear of going off to a PR prison for a stint.
Something else.

The last thread before this one someone brought up that sometimes people struggle with challenges brought on in life by certain medical issues.
Could be the step grandpa and maybe not.

Was going to say his head looked enlarged but maybe it's not his head that looks too big ?
From the photos not just in the Nbc news site, but other msm links in the way back site from the DM and other news links.

Of course photos can do a number on the visual distortion of images.
This is in reference to the general issues people can have ; and points to no one in particular.

There are some parents who do not do well with medical issues and the subsequent costs brought on by those in their household.
This is evident in one of the cases in the "Crimes against children" section of the forum.