IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #6

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@ 0:52 there is a woman standing relaxed at the window.
She is slumped and leaning on the railing.
If she straightened up and stretched herself you can see she’d be able to look out, armpits and head and then be able to stretch her arms a further 2’ out.

Our favourite video yet again.
What was the poor child standing or sitting on, the rail?! If not, there is nothing else to stand on! So I really don't 'get' how anyone could think the window was closed!
 
How can he be bent over the railing at the waist when his waist is visible behind the railing in this first shot? The railing leads directly beneath his elbows. Follow the perspective, follow the brown railing from right corner of the picture, like a ladder, running up beneath his elbows.

EFW4UZSMWFHF7IXQVENVODIOC4.jpg

You can also bend at the chest and neck.
 
I don't think RCCL should have foreseen this tragedy.

Everyone who sees what this man did is shocked and repulsed by his recklessness. Who would have thought an adult would put their baby up in that window ledge---open or closed?

The first ship to have these windows, Voyager was built in November 1998 and the Freedom June 2006 that makes the Voyager 22 years old and never an accident like this from these windows.

How would RCC ever expect this when millions have sailed on these style ships.

I’m so surprised the old Voyager 22 yrs old as RCC ships are always kept immaculate.
 
I believe that there is at least one witness. Remember when it first happened and a short video appeared taken from outside the ship, after the accident? There were two people standing at a window on that deck and one of the men was rapidly moving his arms inside and outside the window, as if demonstrating what he saw. It went along with the initial statement that Sam was playing a game with her. And that repeated motion also sort of goes along with a later story we heard, that Chloe and Sam were moving forward several times- Winkleman said it was so they could get a better view. We will be hearing from that witness later, no doubt.
Do not remember this witness ever being mentioned but if this is correct then its game over , SA .
 
What was the poor child standing or sitting on, the rail?! If not, there is nothing else to stand on! So I really don't 'get' how anyone could think the window was closed!

You can see him move her from the rail to the window sill.

Anyway he put him head out I’m convinced of that.
imo RCC will have far better footage that that grainy used and copied from phone to phone footage.
Gramps still won’t see the gotcha moment.
 
Yes, I hope RCC does have better video as well.
As for the window sill, it sure wouldn't be big enough to sit or stand on if it was closed, which of course it wasn't.
And that is one reason why I cannot believe him when he says he thought there was glass. The way he was standing, so close the window opening, with his arms on the ledge---if there had been a closed window , his face would have been up against the glass.

And with it open, his face would have felt the breeze, smelled the salt air, heard the sounds from the outside, etc etc....
 
"He threw the baby out the window... that sorry SOB.... "
Then he got up and walked out. Then, back in...
"the question is why". Then he said,
"it had to be a vendetta, vengeance. There's more to it than meets the eye. "
"who's it going to hurt the worst " ?

Respectfully snipped & bolded...to highlight Mr Neesaki’s comments.

I have asked myself the same.
 
If she is stood on the upper frame window frame/sill, which I think he admits, then she is closer. But it's not really about it being easier for HER, it's more about being easier for him ... stood upright and for HIM to lean against the SAFETY rail.

CAPS for emphasis of words only ! :cool:

JMOO

Exactly! Much easier for him, as bending down to her level would be very uncomfortable, due to his abdominal girth.
 
ASTM 'Standards.'
@mheido67 :) Wondering if you, as an architect, have had occasion to read and/or interpret any ASTM standards, to determine whether your client's design/project needed to comply w them.
An example:
The ASTM Notes, issued w standard itself, state, it applies to windows installed in "multiple family apartment buildings."
1. Scope
1.3 This safety specification applies only to devices intended to be applied to windows installed at heights of more than 75 ft 7 (23 m) above ground level in multiple family dwelling buildings...."
^ from ASTM F2006 - 17 Standard Safety Specification for Window Fall Prevention Devices for Non-Emergency Escape (Egress) and Rescue (Ingress) Windows bbm


ETA: re ASTM organization. ASTM International - Wikipedia

We do often need to interpret what standards and codes apply. Working in NYC the state and local codes are often more strict than general building standards which serve as the basis for the codes. I do not design large multi family structures but often do work within individual units within them and operable windows, exterior doors and balcony railings are always an issue to be dealt with. One of the questions in this case Is going to be do any of these standards actually apply to maritime vessels? That is something with which I have zero experience.
 
Trial Court Judges & Fallibility? Questions of Law? Reversal on Appeal?
Can a judge rule a certain safety standard statue applies to an RCL ship when statute does not apply?
Time for a corollary. Let's say a certain federal statute requires a certain safety device, a safety widget, for semi trucks operating on public highways, effective as of 01/01/ 2015. Let's say, w Chloe in a properly manuf'ed & installed toddler seat in back seat, SA drives his domestic passenger car manuf'ed in US last yr w all its federal law-mandated safety devices in place, all working perfectly. SA is not paying attention to operating the vehicle. Maybe on his cell, talking/texting, adjusting radio volume, singing Baby Shark, or what-ev. The vehicle is involved in a one-vehicle crash against a concrete wall, in which Chloe dies, and SA is not injured.
Mom & Dad engage atty to sue car manufacturer. Complaint alleges in the car manuf'r was negligent in failing to install a Safety Widget in the model & make of SA’s passenger car. Plaintiff's atty argues if SA's car had been manuf'ed w a Safety Widget installed, the crash would not have occurred and Chloe would be safe & sound at home watching Frozen. Expert witness testimony from both sides. Blah, blah.
Auto manuf'r argues, fed statute requiring Safety Widget applies only to semi trucks and not to passenger cars.

This judge allows into evidence info about Safety Widgets & the fed statute; jury hears evd & awards a kajillion dollars to parents.
Tho imperfect, it's the corollary I'm conjuring up ATM as to whether the judge can find a law relevant and decide to apply it to this case re RCL ship.


Okay, trial ct does it. Does AutoManuf'r (RCL) open corp. checkbook & pay judgment?
Not likely. Defendant is waaaay more likely to appeal.
Whether a particular statute applies is usually a question of law.<--a judge decides.

And trial court's decision on question of law (& many other issues) is subject to appeal.
When a def thinks trial judge makes incorrect ruling on question of law, and that ruling results in a kajillion dollar judgment against the them, the def is pretttttty likely to appeal.
And in above case, app ct decision may determine that tr ct made an incorrect ruling on question of law, so reverse tr ct's decision. If failure to install Safety Widget in car was the only count of negligence, imo, app ct does not remand for re-triaI. As verdict for plaintiff was based on only that count and as a matter of law, it was not applicalble, the basis for ruling for plaintiff collapses.
But in this case, Complaint alleges multiple counts of negligence.



And on appeal, wouldn't the entire industry (and probably related injuries) join in filing Amicus Briefs? This ruling would have serious implications that would impact other companies and could cost them a lot of money.
 
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La Comay, before showing the surveillance video, showed an animation back in July. I had posted a link for it here, but it may have been removed, because I went off topic in the course of talking about something unrelated to this case in the same post.

There may be another type of animation that La Comay also showed, but I must not have saved that to my favorites.

Starts around 3: 30

La Comay also showed this one, no animation but a different shot of LE at window, around 30:50
I had never seen this video.
 
I think so. Here's one of the videos that include that scene. Starts around the 0:35 mark. There are others but this is the best one I could find right now. I believe these are LE officers.

Just looking at the still shot of this, if there are any video or witnesses from outside the ship, I can see why there were reports that he was "dangling" her out the window.
 
I suppose it would become a neverending maze of safety precautions upon safety precautions to avoid every extreme eventuality in every situation, aside from uncontrollable and unforseeable human intervention which as we know can cause problems anyways.
Yes, factoring in the unpredictability of human nature can make it difficult to prevent all accidents.
I still wonder why he was watching her at the water area. Wouldn’t he have needed water or swim apparel? Could that be the reason they didn’t stay near the water play area?
 
Upcoming Features for Freedom of the Seas.

"Next drydock Jan 19 to Mar 1, 2020. Adding Hooked Seafood, .... Laser Tag, the Perfect Storm (waterslide), Sky Pad (bungee trampoline). "

Trampolines: More or less dangerous than being w SA?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
^ Info per cruisedeckplans.com. Freedom of the Seas Deck 11 Deck Plan Tour
Bungee Trampoline is shown as also available on Enchantment of the Seas. Pix at ---
Royal Caribbean Enchantment of the Seas Photo Slideshow
Royal Caribbean Enchantment of the Seas Photo Slideshow

There’s already a lawsuit by a guy who got severely injured on a RCCL Sky Pad when the bungee or the harness failed and he fell to the deck. Spinal injuries I believe. Don’t know the details.
 
From October 2019

Passenger banned for life from RCCL for standing on a railing.

Cruise passenger banned for life after standing on balcony railing above sea

Cruise lines are frequently in the news because of things people do. There is no way to anticipate what people are going to do. The ship would have to have nets everywhere to catch stupid people when they do stupid things.
 
Yes, factoring in the unpredictability of human nature can make it difficult to prevent all accidents.
I still wonder why he was watching her at the water area. Wouldn’t he have needed water or swim apparel? Could that be the reason they didn’t stay near the water play area?
That’s why they use the reasonable person standard. If we had to design everything to account for outlier behavior we would live in a bizarre world of cages and padding. There are always going to be people who either want to hurt themselves (ie. people who jump off ships intentionally), people who act recklessly (ie. people who sit on railings to take photos and unintentionally fall). Businesses can’t be expected to foresee and take measures to prevent all of these actions. They are required to safeguard what is deemed reasonable actions. People go on cruises to be exposed to the ocean. Not to sail around in a sealed up bubble. Passengers agree to abide by certain rules of behavior before boarding to avoid dangerous situations. SA violated those rules almost right away so right off the bat he is at fault.
 
Yes, factoring in the unpredictability of human nature can make it difficult to prevent all accidents.
I still wonder why he was watching her at the water area. Wouldn’t he have needed water or swim apparel? Could that be the reason they didn’t stay near the water play area?
From what I understand, the mother needed to go and attend to a matter, so she called on the grandfather to come and watch the toddler and this is the result after only about 15 minutes.
 
Well, if we look at the legal definition of a 'reasonable person', Grandpa fails the test.

"Reasonable Person. A phrase frequently used in tort and Criminal Law to denote a hypothetical person in society who exercises average care, skill, and judgment in conduct and who serves as a comparative standard for determining liability."

So, Is SA someone who ' exercises average care, skill, and judgment in conduct ?'

Does SA exercise 'average care' with his grand baby? I say NO. I think any reasonable jury will say no. :mad:

Does he have average skill level in his endeavour? Again, I'd say NO. He failed miserably at the task of childcare. Very poor skills. :confused:

How about his judgment? Ummmmm....very poor judgment. Very very poor judgment. o_O

And his conduct? :eek:


I'd say that Grandpa failed the 'reasonable person' standard, no doubt at all.
Add to this argument the fact that SA has been ticketed 3 times for seatbelt violations and an alleged DUI, a pattern emerges for unreasonable behavior. Shows an individual who does not like adhering to rules.
 
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