Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #126

[Manwel]

The sketches only matter in this case if they are the right sketches. It does not matter if someone finds a person who looks nearly identical to either sketch #1, sketch #2(young bridge guy), or Liberty German's video.

Even if the police found the person responsible, they better have something like DNA or fingerprints to connect the person to the girls. Liberty German's video or any of the sketches will never hold up in court. I think a defense attorney would laugh at the idea. I do not even think you could find twelve people on this forum that would agree that what they see(concerning the video or sketches) is the same thing. So why do people do comparisons of the police sketches or Liberty German's video to actual people? I don't know.

Liberty German's video was always the truest description of the man on the bridge. Sketch #2 of the young bridge guy looks nothing like the video to me. But since the case is not solved the argument can be made that the investigation is going in the right direction with the right sketch.

I automatically thought of the Zodiac sketches when I saw they redid the first and came up with something wildly different. GSK was similar. And I'm assuming a lot of this is based on LE finding someone who was in the woods that day who claimed to see the same person up close and their up-close description just doesn't, to me, line up with the voice we hear. The voice we hear is, to me, in his 40s. The person in the second sketch is in his 20s. I automatically don't trust the source of the second sketch based on the voice.

It’s horrifying that although they sensed danger, these 2 girls obviously still never thought they were in serious, mortal danger.

You just want to rewind to that point in time, and have them run.

We will never know. For all we know one of them sensed mortal danger and they couldn't agree how to handle it. There were two of them. No doubt they were thinking about each other. It's easy to just take off and run on your own but if you're concerned about a friend? It's unclear from evidence shared so far what prompted them to begin filming, what led to the exchange recorded and shared by police, and what may have happened that prevented them from running. I'm going to assume the perp had a gun and got close enough to threaten them with it.

I watched the recent docu on SL on the ID Channel. I agree, looks like he left very little evidence in the vast majority of those cases.

MOO about BG is he went after A&L because of their age(s), they were there alone/nobody else was there except BG and them, and he knew there was a high likelihood he could corner them at the end of the bridge, again taking into consideration their age(s).

He saw them right after they were dropped off, that's the only valid explanation for the initial "contact". The contact was most likely from a short distance, and he knew nobody else was there, after all he'd been lurking for a considerable amount of time. Which tells me, too, this was not his first time there, he may have done "dry runs" in the past.

The age group of the girls also complicated the search, after seeing them initially I can guarantee that all went through his mind, in fact he may have planned that well beforehand. Juveniles=no vehicle parked there. A&L missing=nobody could figure out where they went later in that afternoon, all they knew was they had gotten on to the bridge per the SnapChat images.

I think BG had all of that mapped out in his head well beforehand, and he waited until there was a mild Winter day during the work week that juveniles had off from school.

JMO

RE: the school day off, this is uncommon where I lived in Midwest as a child, we never had snow days banked and then used when there wasn't snow. We got snow days only if there was a major snow. So I have to assume this unused snow day would have been announced on the school website at least at some point in advance? Two weeks? One week? Or was it not an used snow day but rather a planned mini-break during winter? I'd be interested to learn more about this detail just to consider how much it would have benefitted the perp. I'm certainly in the camp that BG could be associated with schools, athletics, or adjacent, so the day off would apply to him, too. I agree with the room that a certain amount of the murder was likely planned, but the choosing of the victims was more random. If so, could he have targeted older women? Were his intended targets children?

I agree with all you have said.
Given their age, there can be no consensual sex.
I would not even believe they were sexually active to begin with.

I do not believe that LG would already have been experimenting, nothing about her backstory says she was there, and AW was for surebut you would be surprised what age some teens start exploring. I will always remember back in the day sitting in my ninth grade classroom horrified to hear a girl talking openly about her condom preferences. She was just 14 then and I fully believe she wasn't making it up to be spicy for the boys listening. I remember her getting picked up from softball practices by a 16-year-old in a car. Once kids hit high school, having older siblings or friends with older siblings means kids hit the gas pedal.

She looks feminine, and attractive. In fact, this (possibly, last) photo of her life reflects the moment when a funny duckling grew into a beautiful, graceful, young swan. Such a tragedy that the girls were not given the time to enjoy being young and attractive.

Can we not comment on the "attractive" level of a 13-year-old child who was murdered and likely sexually assaulted by an adult male? This is beyond distasteful for this forum. If a grown woman referred to a 13-year-old boy as "masculine and attractive" or "a beautiful, graceful, young stud" do you think you would comfortably accept that compliment or find it weird as hell? Because it's weird as hell.

I think, (and my ideas have no special worth,) that a crime connected to online communication wouldn’t have been this difficult to solve.

It’s, in my opinion, the random stranger murders that can be so completely frustrating to LE, if the murderer is lucky.

You'd think, but Snapchat stuff is hard to crack. There's a missing girl in Canada where it was obvious she was using untrackable communication with someone that nobody in her family could figure out. She was 16. She's caught on a bunch of security footage at a fast food breakfast place texting and texting and texting but she had no outgoing messages from her phone service. It was all through an app. She disappeared after leaving a truck stop diner restaurant where she had lunch and potentially met up with a man. She had brought a backpack with her which was uncharacteristic apparently. (Her friends said she only carried a purse around normally.)

 

[Betty P]

"Don’t make a fuss in public.”
Are you willing to be the first person who responds to a fire alarm in a crowded restaurant, even though the other patrons choose to play it cool and keep eating? Would you stand up and loudly announce that everyone needs to evacuate until the fire department has arrived to take control?

This one reminds me of the Beverly Hills Supper Club fire in northern KY where a sellout crowd was waiting for a John Davidson concert and dinner when fire broke out. As smoke filled the corridors outside the room, everyone kept calm and stayed in their seats listening to a comedian who was the opening act. It was finally a busboy who came up on stage, took the microphone and told everyone they needed to evacuate and showed them the exits. An 18 y0 busboy. Even with that warning, 165 people still died.

Beverly Hills Supper Club fire - Wikipedia

 

[Ravenmoon]

I automatically thought of the Zodiac sketches when I saw they redid the first and came up with something wildly different. GSK was similar. And I'm assuming a lot of this is based on LE finding someone who was in the woods that day who claimed to see the same person up close and their up-close description just doesn't, to me, line up with the voice we hear. The voice we hear is, to me, in his 40s. The person in the second sketch is in his 20s. I automatically don't trust the source of the second sketch based on the voice.

We will never know. For all we know one of them sensed mortal danger and they couldn't agree how to handle it. There were two of them. No doubt they were thinking about each other. It's easy to just take off and run on your own but if you're concerned about a friend? It's unclear from evidence shared so far what prompted them to begin filming, what led to the exchange recorded and shared by police, and what may have happened that prevented them from running. I'm going to assume the perp had a gun and got close enough to threaten them with it.

RE: the school day off, this is uncommon where I lived in Midwest as a child, we never had snow days banked and then used when there wasn't snow. We got snow days only if there was a major snow. So I have to assume this unused snow day would have been announced on the school website at least at some point in advance? Two weeks? One week? Or was it not an used snow day but rather a planned mini-break during winter? I'd be interested to learn more about this detail just to consider how much it would have benefitted the perp. I'm certainly in the camp that BG could be associated with schools, athletics, or adjacent, so the day off would apply to him, too. I agree with the room that a certain amount of the murder was likely planned, but the choosing of the victims was more random. If so, could he have targeted older women? Were his intended targets children?

I do not believe that LG would already have been experimenting, nothing about her backstory says she was there, and AW was for surebut you would be surprised what age some teens start exploring. I will always remember back in the day sitting in my ninth grade classroom horrified to hear a girl talking openly about her condom preferences. She was just 14 then and I fully believe she wasn't making it up to be spicy for the boys listening. I remember her getting picked up from softball practices by a 16-year-old in a car. Once kids hit high school, having older siblings or friends with older siblings means kids hit the gas pedal.

Can we not comment on the "attractive" level of a 13-year-old child who was murdered and likely sexually assaulted by an adult male? This is beyond distasteful for this forum. If a grown woman referred to a 13-year-old boy as "masculine and attractive" or "a beautiful, graceful, young stud" do you think you would comfortably accept that compliment or find it weird as hell? Because it's weird as hell.

You'd think, but Snapchat stuff is hard to crack. There's a missing girl in Canada where it was obvious she was using untrackable communication with someone that nobody in her family could figure out. She was 16. She's caught on a bunch of security footage at a fast food breakfast place texting and texting and texting but she had no outgoing messages from her phone service. It was all through an app. She disappeared after leaving a truck stop diner restaurant where she had lunch and potentially met up with a man. She had brought a backpack with her which was uncharacteristic apparently. (Her friends said she only carried a purse around normally.)

AW was for sure?
Can you clarify ?
Sources? I have never heard this said before as fact.
I am wondering if maybe there was an error in your post?

EBM to make the thought more complete

 

[ReadySet]

Did anyone watch Dateline NBC tonight? The case was about Michelle Martinko, I had never heard of the case, although I see there is a thread here.

Michelle was a high school senior who did not come home one night in 1979 from visiting the mall. She was found in her car in the parking lot, stabbed to death.

It took 40 years to bring her killer to justice.
With the advent of DNA testing, LE began to test suspects, but there were no matches. Eventually, they did a Parabon image. Then they started the family tree process. They found a cousin match; which led to three brothers. They collected evidence (straws, etc.) from all three, and the youngest was the match. He was arrested and charged in 2018, and sentenced to life in August.

Defense attorneys are now arguing that there should have been a search warrant to collect Burn's and his family's DNA, that the use of geneology was unconstitutional.

He was 25 and married with children when he killed Michelle. He had apparently lived a crime free life since then. Violent *advertiser censored* was found on his computer.

There was no connection between the victim and perp. apparently.
I'm not saying this is like the girls' case here at all, just a lot to think about in terms of the characteristics of the perp, and also the challenge of the use of DNA.

GUILTY - IA - Michelle Martinko, 18, stabbed to death, Cedar Rapids, 19 Dec 1979 *Arrest*

 

[Charlot123]

Did anyone watch Dateline NBC tonight? The case was about Michelle Martinko, I had never heard of the case, although I see there is a thread here.

Michelle was a high school senior who did not come home one night in 1979 from visiting the mall. She was found in her car in the parking lot, stabbed to death.

It took 40 years to bring her killer to justice.
With the advent of DNA testing, LE began to test suspects, but there were no matches. Eventually, they did a Parabon image. Then they started the family tree process. They found a cousin match; which led to three brothers. They collected evidence (straws, etc.) from all three, and the youngest was the match. He was arrested and charged in 2018, and sentenced to life in August.

Defense attorneys are now arguing that there should have been a search warrant to collect Burn's and his family's DNA, that the use of geneology was unconstitutional.

He was 25 and married with children when he killed Michelle. He had apparently lived a crime free life since then. Violent *advertiser censored* was found on his computer.

There was no connection between the victim and perp. apparently.
I'm not saying this is like the girls' case here at all, just a lot to think about in terms of the characteristics of the perp, and also the challenge of the use of DNA.

GUILTY - IA - Michelle Martinko, 18, stabbed to death, Cedar Rapids, 19 Dec 1979 *Arrest*

I did not hear about this case, but I read about Angie Dodge's case, in details. As it was mentioned in the article, "the most difficult case" of Ce Ce Moore. The interesting part is that the DNA obtained from the crime scene in that case was degraded. And for a second I hoped that maybe, the Parabon is still working at Delphi case.

 

[Charlot123]

Regarding the question, who could know about the snow day?

It probably depends on websites, but in our school district, you can see all days off well in advance. They don't have "snow days" in the absence of snow, but they have something like "personal training days" for teachers, etc. Basically, one can see the days when school will be off well in advance. You need to be neither a teacher nor a parent, the school calendar is open for everyone.

I still feel that the girls were either catfished or followed, and maybe, for a few days. That trip to MHB was very convenient, but perhaps their schedule and sports activities were better known than we think. MOO.

 

[Hobgoblinmarket]

We can toss that around all day, suffice it to say there are all kinds of crime scene evidence from DNA to Diatoms, fiber, prints etc. I'm putting my money on there is also major evidence BG guy left behind and doesn't even realize it. There was a murder case where the killer wore gloves and drove the victims car to get away and dumped the car later. The killer accidently touched his own skin with his gloved hand and left a small trace sample of his own perspiration on the dash board. That's all that was need to I.D. him once they caught him.

It is of my opinion a full dna profile was not found, especially based on Paul Hole's comments about them using genealogy that was used in the East Are Rapist/ Original Nightstalker case.

 

[AryaStark]

One thing that has always struck me as odd, is why Libby's grandfather Dennis Bridge thought that Abby had an 18 year- old brother ? To my knowledge, she's an only child.

Grandfather of one of murdered Indiana teens speaks out | Daily Mail Online

 

[Deleted member 102539]

You'd think, but Snapchat stuff is hard to crack. There's a missing girl in Canada where it was obvious she was using untrackable communication with someone that nobody in her family could figure out. She was 16. She's caught on a bunch of security footage at a fast food breakfast place texting and texting and texting but she had no outgoing messages from her phone service. It was all through an app. She disappeared after leaving a truck stop diner restaurant where she had lunch and potentially met up with a man. She had brought a backpack with her which was uncharacteristic apparently. (Her friends said she only carried a purse around normally.)

^^ This. She waited for something to happen (probably meeting the unknown man, inside or outside the restaurant). I think, I know, which case you mean. I looked for my Delphi poi, perhaps suddenly showing up in the surveillance video .... he didn't or I didn't recognize him.

 

[rosesfromangels]

I know we've gone over this before, but I'd like to revisit what is believed to be the most likely exit route from the crime scene. Next, I want to add another speculation layer on top of that exit speculation.

With the most likely exit route, what occupations/people would least likely trigger attention? Meaning, who frequents that exit route for legitimate purposes and won't seem out of place? Are there big garbage bins along the exit route that need to be routinely emptied? Park benches that need to be inspected/refinished? Fire hydrants that need to be inspected, and so forth....

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[IceIce9]

I have several friends who recently served as missionaries in a country where the Christian religion is banned. Some missionaries have been arrested in this country, so they are very careful with their texting. They texted through two different apps that made their texts untraceable. Before they traveled to this country they asked friends and family to download one or both of these apps so we could communicate safely.

 

[IceIce9]

I know we've gone over this before, but I'd like to revisit what is believed to be the most likely exit route from the crime scene. Next, I want to add another speculation layer on top of that exit speculation.

With the most likely exit route, what occupations/people would least likely trigger attention? Meaning, who frequents that exit route for legitimate purposes and won't seem out of place? Are there big garbage bins along the exit route that need to be routinely emptied? Park benches that need to be inspected/refinished? Fire hydrants that need to be inspected, and so forth....

Amateur opinion and speculation

DNR conservation officers, employees from Delphi Parks Department. Also Delphi has a citizen’s park board.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

One thing that has always struck me as odd, is why Libby's grandfather Dennis Bridge thought that Abby had an 18 year- old brother ? To my knowledge, she's an only child.

Grandfather of one of murdered Indiana teens speaks out | Daily Mail Online

After reading what Libby’s grandfather said I think he was just speaking hypothetically concerning Abby and an 18 year old brother. Firstly he stated he did not know Abby, so he probably didn’t know what her family situation was exactly. Then he was talking about the time before the bodies had been found and people were looking for them and the families were trying to figure out what was going on. He mentions a thought of them running away to Libby’s mom or maybe, he says, being mad about something and maybe they ran to Abby’s brother’s house. It sounded to me like he was out throwing out scenarios he had come up with that night, not that he was saying Abby had a brother. I doubt he knew if she did or not at this point. This article was dated Feb 17 2017.

 

[Justice101]

I honestly think, it's my strong feeling, that the killer was in that PC room on April 22, 2019.

I've never seen body language and micro expressions or felt the in-the-moment emotions coming off a LE spokesperson before like they were that day. It was not just ISP Carter having a bad day dealing. He was, IMO, as close to rage as he could be without exploding.

The inclusion of the or is viewing this press conference from somewhere else...that part felt like a balance to hide the truth of it...who we think is the killer, is in this room. AJMO

I thought it was a defensive measure lashing out that that they had been duped and that the killer might be playing games with them. I don't know.. just my impression.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I know we've gone over this before, but I'd like to revisit what is believed to be the most likely exit route from the crime scene. Next, I want to add another speculation layer on top of that exit speculation.

With the most likely exit route, what occupations/people would least likely trigger attention? Meaning, who frequents that exit route for legitimate purposes and won't seem out of place? Are there big garbage bins along the exit route that need to be routinely emptied? Park benches that need to be inspected/refinished? Fire hydrants that need to be inspected, and so forth....

Amateur opinion and speculation

We have discussed exit routes before but, for me, how the killer left that day is the most important element in finding him. I don’t think we can discuss it enough!
I’m not sure what LE thinks on this since early on they were asking people about hitchhikers, and walkers, etc. But it’s hard to ignore the Hoosier Heartland Hwy that would have gotten him away, very far very quickly.
I think your questions about the exit route and people who would not be suspected in those areas are good ones.

 

[sunshineray]

I know we've gone over this before, but I'd like to revisit what is believed to be the most likely exit route from the crime scene. Next, I want to add another speculation layer on top of that exit speculation.

With the most likely exit route, what occupations/people would least likely trigger attention? Meaning, who frequents that exit route for legitimate purposes and won't seem out of place? Are there big garbage bins along the exit route that need to be routinely emptied? Park benches that need to be inspected/refinished? Fire hydrants that need to be inspected, and so forth....

Amateur opinion and speculation

According to Gray Hughes video he states someone did notice a man in that area walking on the road. 15 mins in on video. I wonder if that description favors the second sketch?

 

[sunshineray]

I thought it was a defensive measure lashing out that that they had been duped and that the killer might be playing games with them. I don't know.. just my impression.

I definitely think that was part of it. They were duped by someone known to them and probably trusted.

 

[MistyWaters]

According to Gray Hughes video he states someone did notice a man in that area walking on the road. 15 mins in on video. I wonder if that description favors the second sketch?

My opinion, a suspect possibly sighted on the highway led to the first sketch and the more or less national manhunt with FBI billboards everywhere. As that didn’t pan out, the focus changed to the second sketch of a suspect, somebody with local ties.

Feb 20, 2017
“We are asking people that were driving through the Hoosier heartland that might have seen a hitchhiker or saw somebody walking. We are asking people in Logansport all the way to Lafayette if they saw somebody around that late afternoon on February 13 walking down the roadway. We would like to know about that person,” said Indiana State Police Sgt. Kim Riley....”
All-out manhunt underway for main suspect in murders of two Delphi teens | Fox 59

 

[Manwel]

AW was for sure?
Can you clarify ?
Sources? I have never heard this said before as fact.
I am wondering if maybe there was an error in your post?

EBM to make the thought more complete

Sorry, I just came back to the thread today and noticed the post draft saved poorly. It appears to have cut off what I wrote instead of saving. That's why I have a weird typo there with "but." What a terrible spot for a mistake!!!! Especially as I took issue with that other person's comments! What I had said about AW that was cut off was "AW was for sure not there yet given her age and background." Meaning from what I've read of her backstory was still very reserved with people she didn't know and struck me as more childlike than LG, who seems from descriptions to be the more go-getter between the two, the one to make the plans. AW seems more like the one who followed. But honestly, I really think it's a lot of unnecessary speculation that they would have been there to meet up with someone, especially those who think they were trying to meet a stranger.

All this discussion about "spiffing" just seems completely left field and not based on anything. I'm more inclined to believe they came upon someone who was just waiting for the right opportunity. My reasoning is that if they had been planning to meet someone, and then got bad feelings about the situation and started filming him, why didn't they just text or call someone to say "Someone is here and scaring us"? If they weren't planning to find someone there that day at all, I get why they would choose this low-key filming approach of a stranger with the hope that they were just passing by.

These things make me think of David Fincher's Girl With the Dragon Tattoo remake where a great exchange at the end occurs between Stellan Skarsgard and Daniel Craig. SPOILER Skarsgard is the killer and he invites Craig inside his home even though Craig has figured out that Skarsgard is most likely the killer. But there's this need to be polite, to play along and pretend everything is fine that gets in the way of Craig just booking it out of there. And the killer points this out to Craig after he's captured him, he says he chose being polite over self-preservation, and that's how he's successful as a killer, because people are more afraid of showing bad manners than they are afraid of being hurt.

So in that regard, I wonder how much their fear of looking or being unnecessarily hysterical meant they tried to "stay cool" and then it was too late when he got too close? Because again, why didn't they text or call someone? Both had phones with them from what I've read.

 

[Falling Down]

According to Gray Hughes video he states someone did notice a man in that area walking on the road. 15 mins in on video. I wonder if that description favors the second sketch?

When I drove C.R. 300 in August of 2017 on a weekend, I think it was a Saturday, I saw one person walking. Appeared she was walking her dog, and she turned and looked at the back of my vehicle when I drove past. She lives on the south side of the road near to where the CPS building stood.

I'd imagine even before the murders people who live along there would have taken note of vehicles and people walking, and the only people walking along there would have to be locals. It's a quiet, country, county road, off the beaten path, besides the huge grain complex.

Nobody else was on that road, it wasn't until I got on to C.R. 425 that I saw more people, and a vehicle was headed north towards Wilson Bridge, which is a popular spot for fishing. Two pick ups were sitting there, and two men were fishing at the bridge, which is a beautiful spot in the gorge.

C.R. 300 appears to be used mainly by locals as a short cut to IN 25 and into Delphi from the surrounding countryside. There's very little through-traffic. The grain complex is open only on certain days.

JMO