Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #14

[Lexiintoronto]

1 hour ago..
‘Someone has killed my clients’: Newly released documents detail the day Barry and Honey Sherman were found dead, and what police did after

''Justice Leslie Pringle of the Ontario Court of Justice has released redacted versions of the first four of 12 search warrant and production order applications in the Barry and Honey Sherman murder investigation. This story is drawn from police and civilian witness statements contained in these applications. The Star has been fighting the sealing order for almost three years.''

Spoilers:

I can only summarize, but from your link above: they had an alarm system that the housekeeper would normally find armed upon her arrival: it was not armed when she arrived that Friday!!! (And the housekeeper has been named!)

Remember, @ldlager, we both mentioned seeing the van from a security company on a live feed (CP24)?! We were being told they didn’t normally use one.

Still reading...

 

[MistyWaters]

Spoilers:

I can only summarize, but from your link above: they had an alarm system that the housekeeper would normally find armed upon her arrival: it was not armed when she arrived that Friday!!! (And the housekeeper has been named!)

Remember, @ldlager, we both mentioned seeing the van from a security company on a live feed (CP24)?! We were being told they didn’t normally use one.

Still reading...

I always find it sort of interesting to look back to try to find how unsubstantiated information about a case can morph it’s way into becoming a MSM well-established fact. Best I can find, this one began with CBC however they don’t say how “no security cameras” was “learned”.

Dec 20, 2017
What police haven't said
Although there have been some media reports about evidence, police have yet to confirm any specifics beyond cause of death. However, CBC News has learned that the Shermans were found by the pool in their basement and that investigators have found no security cameras inside or outside the home.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/barry-sherman-honey-sherman-homicide-deaths-1.4456170

 

[Lexiintoronto]

I always find it sort of interesting to look back to try to find how unsubstantiated information about a case can morph it’s way into becoming a MSM well-established fact. Best I can find, this one began with CBC however they don’t say how “no security cameras” was “learned”.

Dec 20, 2017
What police haven't said
Although there have been some media reports about evidence, police have yet to confirm any specifics beyond cause of death. However, CBC News has learned that the Shermans were found by the pool in their basement and that investigators have found no security cameras inside or outside the home.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/barry-sherman-honey-sherman-homicide-deaths-1.4456170

Isn’t there a KW post here that accurately spoke to there being an armed alarm system?

He asked how the ‘killer(s)’ exited the house, locking it behind them? (Paraphrasing.)

And we posted about alarm systems. My parents had one. It was disarmed, but the alarm still went off in one area and the alarm company called me. They knew which window set the alarm off.

ETA: edited for clarity

 

[MistyWaters]

Isn’t there a KW post here that accurately spoke to there being an armed alarm system?

He asked how the ‘killer(s)’ exited the house, locking it behind them? (Paraphrasing.)

And we posted about alarm systems. My parents had one. It was disarmed, but the alarm still went off in one area and the alarm company called me. They knew which window set the alarm off.

ETA: edited for clarity

I also recall KW writing here quite some time ago, telling us about a video supposedly sent to CBC of Barry murdering Honey. I recall he said he hadn’t actually seen it, but someone riding in an elevator with him told him about it. However he was quite adamant it existed. IIRC he said the video was from their home security system and Barry had accidentally turned on the camera but then covered his head, or something like that.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Found KW’s post regarding the security system.

YES!!!
I believe it’s time l share this, since there hasn’t been a single media outlet l’ve told, including a promise from Matt Campbell, at Businessweek to print it.
A few days after the Sherman’s were found a VERY close friend attended an early annual Christmas party. I couldn’t attend.
During the party, a retired homicide detective approached her to tell her a number of things:
1. I’m not a suspect.
2. The police KNOW Barry killed Honey, then commited suicide.
3. Barry “****** up” in two place. He killed Honey somewhere else in the house and she was already dead when he hung her. The scene was “cleaned up”. Barry wanted to make it look like a suicide pact.
4. The elaborate computerized security system monitored every window/door that opens and closes. Honey came home 1st: door opens/closes. Barry came home: door opens/closes. NOBODY came in/left. There wasn’t forced entry!
5. The Sherman’s are going to retain a high powered lawyer who will bring in his own team/conduct his own autopsy and forensics. The retired homicide detective will find evidence of intruder/murder.
6. The team hired by the Sherman’s will convince the TPS to change their initial theory of M/S to targeted murders. The police will go quiet.
7. The MOST important prediction he made: Although there will be total confusion on manner of the Sherman’s deaths: the chief coroner WON’T hold a formal inquest!!!
This case screams for a formal inquest which would easily determine M/S. There would be no evidence presented to show murders. This inquest MUST be avoided. There will be a cover-up because the family can’t accept the harsh truth.
Below are the reasons for an inquest taken directly from Ontario’s chief coroners website.
The Five Questions
There are five questions that must be answered when investigating a death:

• Who was the deceased?
• Where did the death occur?
• When did the death occur?
• How did the death occur (i.e. the medical cause)?
• By what means did the death occur?(i.e. the classification or manner of death: natural, suicide, accident, homicide or undetermined)

I believe something went down at their last meeting at Apotex with the builder J. Brennan. An argument or major disagreement that became very heated. This fight continued at 50 Old Colony....my cousin was finally pushed over the edge and in a rage struck Honey. Again, Barry had a very explosive temper.
The Sherman’s personal body trainer is my brother’s best friends wife. She told my brother that “Barry was unbelievably strong for his age”.
*** From a reliable reporter who works for a major Toronto paper: the police were 85% sure it was M/S after less than 4 hours in the house. He totally believes there’s a cover-up, but cannot run a story questioning the integrity of the TPS....his contacts within the force will completely dry up and the threat of losing his job. Yes: Barry had friends in high places, including the media that are going along with Gomes/Price’s flip/flop and aren’t questioning nor suggesting.
Bottom line: there hasn’t been a single shred of evidence by the TPS or Greenspan to suggest a targeted double murder.
Again, this case screams for a formal coroners inquest to determin the cause of deaths!!!!
It wasn’t: WHY?!?!

*** There you have it. Again, nobody will collect the 10 million. There won’t be an arrest.

Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #10

 

[Lexiintoronto]

I also recall KW writing here quite some time ago, telling us about a video supposedly sent to CBC of Barry murdering Honey. I recall he said he hadn’t actually seen it, but someone riding in an elevator with him told him about it. However he was quite adamant it existed. IIRC he said the video was from their home security system and Barry had accidentally turned on the camera but then covered his head, or something like that.

There’s an older KW post where he writes about it, but he makes reference to it here:

ONLY one source for the audio and vdo tapes:the TPS. I was surprised when Ronna mentioned the tapes. She wasn’t supposed to tell me.....that’s for sure.
After l was filmed at the CBC studio, as l was leaving l turned to the executive producer Harvey Cashore and said, “hey Harvey, l’d love to hear the recording of Barry killing Honey”!
He replied, “what recording”? as he turned and stared at Ronna.
Then he brought it up again in the elevator as he lead me to the front doors...all this occurred with my best friend present.
Then....came the coffee shop meeting.
*** Do l believe there’s a recording? Yes.
*** Do l believe there’s a video of Barry covering his face as he moves the camera? Yes
*** Do l believe the police have these tapes? Yes.

Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #10

 

[MistyWaters]

Lexiintoronto, thanks for searching for those old posts! It brings back memories of a time when KW was on an extensive murder/suicide mission.

 

[ldlager]

The Star article today has many details that clarify some items that we have discussed for almost 3 years:
- they had an alarm system
- the system wasn't armed when the housekeeper arrived on Friday morning. This was unusual.
- the timeline surrounding the calling of police has supposedly been clarified and narrowed (although see below- the timeline remains unclear IMO)
- the police suspected M/S or S/S for some time, and used that possibility to obtain search warrants and other legal documents and permissions

But the article also gives rise to some new questions IMO:
- when the housekeeper arrived the newspaper was sitting outside on the front porch. That was unusual- usually BS picked it up and was reading it at the kitchen table when the housekeeper and trainer arrived on Fridays. The article doesn't state that 2 days of newspapers were on the front porch, and it infers that it was Friday's paper. If that is the case, where was Thursday's paper if they were killed on Wed night? Why wasn't it on the front porch also?
- the Sherman's bed was found made, but not in the way that HS usually made it. "...“The bed was made but a bit untidy and the sink, which Honey uses in the morning, was dry,” Macatangay later told police. The bed was not made in the way Honey would normally make it...". My question- Who could have made the bed if not HS? Maybe BS made the bed on the morning of the day they were murdered? It doesn't sound like BS usually made the bed. Perhaps HS had gotten into bed when she arrived home from the meeting and then the killers made the bed afterwards? (not sure why they would do that?)
- HS made reference to BS having "affairs" when a package from a hotel arrived at the house . This has been interpreted by some as meaning infidelity. I do not believe this, and I think her use of "affair" was meant to reference business receptions or "affairs" hosted at the hotel. I know of no published evidence of BS being unfaithful, and I have never read a quote from any of his friends indicating this.
- Finally, the article says that "...Toronto Fire Department arrived first after the 11:44 a.m. call. A firefighter noted “they were blue in colour with obvious signs of rigour mortis. Police arrived a little later, at 11:54 a.m..." If that is the case, why does the Toronto Police website STILL state that "....On Friday, December 15, 2017, at about 12:46 p.m., police responded to an emergency call in the area of Old Colony Road & Gerald Street...." (RBBM). I have posted about this discrepancy several times before, yet it remains on the Toronto Police website. If the website is inaccurate, and has not been corrected after all this time, it could lead one to question the thoroughness and care with which LE is dealing with this case IMO. Or is the 12.46pm in fact accurate, and the legal documents contain the wrong time. In which case, it took 2 hours to call police...

 

[Lexiintoronto]

The Star article today has many details that clarify some items that we have discussed for almost 3 years:
- they had an alarm system
- the system wasn't armed when the housekeeper arrived on Friday morning. This was unusual.
- the timeline surrounding the calling of police has supposedly been clarified and narrowed (although see below- the timeline remains unclear IMO)
- the police suspected M/S or S/S for some time, and used that possibility to obtain search warrants and other legal documents and permissions

But the article also gives rise to some new questions IMO:
- when the housekeeper arrived the newspaper was sitting outside on the front porch. That was unusual- usually BS picked it up and was reading it at the kitchen table when the housekeeper and trainer arrived on Fridays. The article doesn't state that 2 days of newspapers were on the front porch, and it infers that it was Friday's paper. If that is the case, where was Thursday's paper if they were killed on Wed night? Why wasn't it on the front porch also?
- the Sherman's bed was found made, but not in the way that HS usually made it. "...“The bed was made but a bit untidy and the sink, which Honey uses in the morning, was dry,” Macatangay later told police. The bed was not made in the way Honey would normally make it...". My question- Who could have made the bed if not HS? Maybe BS made the bed on the morning of the day they were murdered? It doesn't sound like BS usually made the bed. Perhaps HS had gotten into bed when she arrived home from the meeting and then the killers made the bed afterwards? (not sure why they would do that?)
- HS made reference to BS having "affairs" when a package from a hotel arrived at the house . This has been interpreted by some as meaning infidelity. I do not believe this, and I think her use of "affair" was meant to reference business receptions or "affairs" hosted at the hotel. I know of no published evidence of BS being unfaithful, and I have never read a quote from any of his friends indicating this.
- Finally, the article says that "...Toronto Fire Department arrived first after the 11:44 a.m. call. A firefighter noted “they were blue in colour with obvious signs of rigour mortis. Police arrived a little later, at 11:54 a.m..." If that is the case, why does the Toronto Police website STILL state that "....On Friday, December 15, 2017, at about 12:46 p.m., police responded to an emergency call in the area of Old Colony Road & Gerald Street...." (RBBM). I have posted about this discrepancy several times before, yet it remains on the Toronto Police website. If the website is inaccurate, and has not been corrected after all this time, it could lead one to question the thoroughness and care with which LE is dealing with this case IMO. Or is the 12.46pm in fact accurate, and the legal documents contain the wrong time. In which case, it took 2 hours to call police...

You made a good observation about the newspapers!

There’s something else odd about the last paragraphs of the story. Det. Yim made an application two months after the murders giving five reasons that supported the theory that BS was murdered, not a possible victim of murder OR suicide, as he had previously submitted.

The Det. Gomes press conference where she stated the Shermans were both murder victims was six weeks [/B]after the murders.
‘Someone has killed my clients’: Newly released documents detail the day Barry and Honey Sherman were found dead, and what police did after

 

[ldlager]

You made a good observation about the newspapers!

There’s something else odd about the last paragraphs of the story. Det. Yim made an application two months after the murders giving five reasons that supported the theory that BS was murdered, not a possible victim of murder OR suicide, as he had previously submitted.

The Det. Gomes press conference where she stated the Shermans were both murder victims was six weeks [/B]after the murders.
‘Someone has killed my clients’: Newly released documents detail the day Barry and Honey Sherman were found dead, and what police did after

Thanks. II'm not sure I understand your last point. Two months is longer than 6 weeks, so doesn't it make sense that Yim would be calling it a murder after six weeks after the murder? I must be missing something.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Thanks. II'm not sure I understand your last point. Two months is longer than 6 weeks, so doesn't it make sense that Yim would be calling it a murder after six weeks after the murder? I must be missing something.

That’s just it: why didn’t Det. Yim make that application on or before the news conference that declared it to be a double-homicide?

(That part is behind a paywall, so I don’t think I can cut and paste it.)

I don’t know anything about police work, it just seems strange.

 

[ldlager]

That’s just it: why didn’t Det. Yim make that application on or before the news conference that declared it to be a double-homicide?

(That part is behind a paywall, so I don’t think I can cut and paste it.)

I don’t know anything about police work, it just seems strange.

Here is the quote:
"... In the final warrant material that has been unsealed to the Star (dated Feb. 15, 2018, exactly two months after the murder), detective constable Yim writes:
“In a previous application I had stated that I believed that Honey Sherman was murdered and Bernard (Barry) Sherman was either murdered or committed suicide. In this application I state that I have reasonable grounds to believe that Bernard Sherman was murdered as well and my grounds to believe are as follows.”
The five “grounds” listed are blacked out...."

Maybe constable Yim simply wasn't ready to file the application for this particular warrant on or before the date of the press conference. Maybe the application came about from info obtained after the press conference. Just a thought.

 

[deugirtni]

Does it make sense that an alarm would be set on, inside a home where the occupant (s) are moving around and waiting for visitors?

To say it was unusual for the alarm to have been off might only mean IF the occupants weren't home? Which, it seems the housekeeper and trainer determined quickly enough that B&H were NOT home as expected, to do their personal training regimen, since the trainer left the premises.

Also according to reports (from MS, per KD), the couple didn't lock their doors... does that mean all the time? Or while they were at home? Or when nobody was home? In my mind, I'm thinking it was meant that the couple didnt lock doors while they were AT home...so it would have seemed unusual for the door to be locked if they'd been home as expected, to do their personal training exercises.

If thinking from the housekeeper and trainer perspectives, both things would've seemed odd...the door locked even though they were supposed to be home to greet the trainer, and even though H's vehicle was reportedly parked in its usual place... but yet the alarm wasn't set - which perhaps would've been odd if the couple were NOT in the house, and had left. The two oddities were conflicting.

I think we had previously discussed how there was no video security in the house or on the property, but IIRC, we knew they did have an alarm system? I remember us seeing the little motion detectors in photos? Who knows whether or not the security system was actually hooked up to a paid service with an alarm company, or to send alarms directly to police? Some people have them in their homes, but yet they don't pay for an ongoing service. If they did pay for a service, then their information over the course of those hours from Wednesday evening (or even earlier) til Friday morning would surely have been important evidence for police, one way or another.

When the security service vehicle was seen outside, I believe we talked earlier about how police would've wanted a rundown on how their system worked, and/or possibly to also secure the premises during their investigation. Imo.

 

[dotr]

''The Toronto Star's Kevin Donovan on new info in Sherman case
•Nov 19, 2020''

 

[Tighthead]

Does it make sense that an alarm would be set on, inside a home where the occupant (s) are moving around and waiting for visitors?

To say it was unusual for the alarm to have been off might only mean IF the occupants weren't home? Which, it seems the housekeeper and trainer determined quickly enough that B&H were NOT home as expected, to do their personal training regimen, since the trainer left the premises.

Also according to reports (from MS, per KD), the couple didn't lock their doors... does that mean all the time? Or while they were at home? Or when nobody was home? In my mind, I'm thinking it was meant that the couple didnt lock doors while they were AT home...so it would have seemed unusual for the door to be locked if they'd been home as expected, to do their personal training exercises.

If thinking from the housekeeper and trainer perspectives, both things would've seemed odd...the door locked even though they were supposed to be home to greet the trainer, and even though H's vehicle was reportedly parked in its usual place... but yet the alarm wasn't set - which perhaps would've been odd if the couple were NOT in the house, and had left. The two oddities were conflicting.

I think we had previously discussed how there was no video security in the house or on the property, but IIRC, we knew they did have an alarm system? I remember us seeing the little motion detectors in photos? Who knows whether or not the security system was actually hooked up to a paid service with an alarm company, or to send alarms directly to police? Some people have them in their homes, but yet they don't pay for an ongoing service. If they did pay for a service, then their information over the course of those hours from Wednesday evening (or even earlier) til Friday morning would surely have been important evidence for police, one way or another.

When the security service vehicle was seen outside, I believe we talked earlier about how police would've wanted a rundown on how their system worked, and/or possibly to also secure the premises during their investigation. Imo.

Maybe their normal practice was to arm the alarm to perimeter, like people do when they go to sleep. Not my style, but some people always have it set.

 

[deugirtni]

Maybe their normal practice was to arm the alarm to perimeter, like people do when they go to sleep. Not my style, but some people always have it set.

Maybe, but it would seem to conflict with the information that 'they never locked their doors'.. if they were concerned enough to set their alarms even while inside the home, but yet not lock the doors. jmo.

 

[MistyWaters]

That’s just it: why didn’t Det. Yim make that application on or before the news conference that declared it to be a double-homicide?

(That part is behind a paywall, so I don’t think I can cut and paste it.)

I don’t know anything about police work, it just seems strange.

I think Yim wouldn’t have any reason to provide an affidavit/application to the court until there was something filed that required a response by TPS. Probably that was KW’s initial filing to request release of warrants/subpoenas, two months after the murder of the Shermans.

JMO

 

[ldlager]

Does it make sense that an alarm would be set on, inside a home where the occupant (s) are moving around and waiting for visitors?

To say it was unusual for the alarm to have been off might only mean IF the occupants weren't home? Which, it seems the housekeeper and trainer determined quickly enough that B&H were NOT home as expected, to do their personal training regimen, since the trainer left the premises.

Also according to reports (from MS, per KD), the couple didn't lock their doors... does that mean all the time? Or while they were at home? Or when nobody was home? In my mind, I'm thinking it was meant that the couple didnt lock doors while they were AT home...so it would have seemed unusual for the door to be locked if they'd been home as expected, to do their personal training exercises.

If thinking from the housekeeper and trainer perspectives, both things would've seemed odd...the door locked even though they were supposed to be home to greet the trainer, and even though H's vehicle was reportedly parked in its usual place... but yet the alarm wasn't set - which perhaps would've been odd if the couple were NOT in the house, and had left. The two oddities were conflicting.

I think we had previously discussed how there was no video security in the house or on the property, but IIRC, we knew they did have an alarm system? I remember us seeing the little motion detectors in photos? Who knows whether or not the security system was actually hooked up to a paid service with an alarm company, or to send alarms directly to police? Some people have them in their homes, but yet they don't pay for an ongoing service. If they did pay for a service, then their information over the course of those hours from Wednesday evening (or even earlier) til Friday morning would surely have been important evidence for police, one way or another.

When the security service vehicle was seen outside, I believe we talked earlier about how police would've wanted a rundown on how their system worked, and/or possibly to also secure the premises during their investigation. Imo.

re the alarm service vehicle- and to obtain details from the system about which doors and windows were opened, and when that occurred. I assume the system would record that info.

 

[ldlager]

The Star article says the furnace guy was downstairs for an hour. It’s strange that did he not see Barry’s gloves and the house inspection report lying on the floor It’s not mentioned in the article that he did see them, and depending on which stairs he took he would have walked right by them. Floor plan is attached for the benefit of newer posters on this forum.

https://media.houssmax.ca/201711/29/5a1f32afd3797.pdf

 

[MistyWaters]

I think Yim wouldn’t have any reason to provide an affidavit/application to the court until there was something filed that required a response by TPS. Probably that was KW’s initial filing to request release of warrants/subpoenas, two months after the murder of the Shermans.

JMO

Pardon my typo, should be KD not KW.