Or maybe H was up in her bedroom before she was killed.. either led there by her killer or .. ?? It is difficult to imagine that the killer would've taken the risk of sitting on the bed, due to potential shedding of DNA of some sort, imho. (Unless it would have been considered normal to find the person's DNA everywhere throughout the house, which is also possible.) imo.
Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #14
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I think the killers would have likely locked the door once BS and HS were inside. Just as a security measure. Then the killers either left through the open window, or the downstairs side door (which wasn't locked IIRC), or they walked out of the house through the garage and up the driveway, (we don't know if the door from the garage to the house was locked), or they took BS or HS keys and locked the door as they left. Or they already had keys to the house- from previous access to the lockbox, or by some other means (it seems cleaners had keys, also probably family members,, etc had keys also).There are many possibilities.
Hopefully they are gearing up for some revelations at the THREE year anniversary of their murders? I can only imagine how frustrating it must be for police to face months-long delays in getting requested information. It seems they are still busy pursuing different things, and hopefully the results will give them the leads and clues and evidence needed to further this case. Can't believe it is coming up to THREE years???? Is that right????
I think the killers would have likely locked the door once BS and HS were inside. Just as a security measure. Then the killers either left through the open window, or the downstairs side door (which wasn't locked IIRC), or they walked out of the house through the garage and up the driveway, (we don't know if the door from the garage to the house was locked), or they took BS or HS keys and locked the door as they left. Or they already had keys to the house- from previous access to the lockbox, or by some other means (it seems cleaners had keys, also probably family members,, etc had keys also).There are many possibilities.
Interesting that they apparently believe the bodies were found approx 36 hours after their murders. From the article entitled:
‘Someone has killed my clients’: Newly released documents detail the day Barry and Honey Sherman were found dead, and what police did after
Toronto Fire Department arrived first after the 11:44 a.m. call. A firefighter noted “they were blue in colour with obvious signs of rigour mortis.” Police arrived a little later, at 11:54 a.m
‘Someone has killed my clients’: Newly released documents detail the day Barry and Honey Sherman were found dead, and what police did after
But according to this report, rigor mortis is usually completely gone by 36 hours. And warmer temps would speed the whole process up. Not sure what the pool room would've been kept at or if it was in regular use, etc.
In locations where temperatures and environments are moderate, rigor mortis begins to set in one to two hours after death. The stiffening affects the small, involuntary (i.e., autonomic) muscles of the body first, including those in the eyelids, around the internal organs, and heart. Next, rigor mortis is evidenced in small voluntary muscles, such as the jaw and neck. It eventually spreads throughout the entire body, from the neck down. It usually reaches its peak at approximately 12 hours after death. A body generally remains in full rigor for 12 or so more hours before the stiffening subsides and completely dissipates by the 36-hour mark.
How Rigor Mortis Can Help Indicate Time of Death - In Public Safety
‘Someone has killed my clients’: Newly released documents detail the day Barry and Honey Sherman were found dead, and what police did after
Toronto Fire Department arrived first after the 11:44 a.m. call. A firefighter noted “they were blue in colour with obvious signs of rigour mortis.” Police arrived a little later, at 11:54 a.m
‘Someone has killed my clients’: Newly released documents detail the day Barry and Honey Sherman were found dead, and what police did after
But according to this report, rigor mortis is usually completely gone by 36 hours. And warmer temps would speed the whole process up. Not sure what the pool room would've been kept at or if it was in regular use, etc.
In locations where temperatures and environments are moderate, rigor mortis begins to set in one to two hours after death. The stiffening affects the small, involuntary (i.e., autonomic) muscles of the body first, including those in the eyelids, around the internal organs, and heart. Next, rigor mortis is evidenced in small voluntary muscles, such as the jaw and neck. It eventually spreads throughout the entire body, from the neck down. It usually reaches its peak at approximately 12 hours after death. A body generally remains in full rigor for 12 or so more hours before the stiffening subsides and completely dissipates by the 36-hour mark.
How Rigor Mortis Can Help Indicate Time of Death - In Public Safety
Kerry Winter
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I forgot to mention the 1st thing the retired homicide detective said, “if these bodies were found in Regent Park...it would be a slam dunk murder/suicide”.
That was their initial reaction IIRC. Took TPS quite a while to change to double homicide.
Kerry Winter
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So some still believe it was a M-S and only because of the pressure from the Family lawyer (Greenspan) did the TPS rule it a M-M.
What is the advantage or benefit to the family to have it ruled a M-M if that is not what happened?
The parents are dead, the will and estate will go through the same processes regardless of causes of death. The Sherman leagacy has not changed because of the cause of death as far I can tell.
Is there any evidence or indication that it was a M-S. No suicide note, no signs of Clinical Depression. Both Shermans were leading a active full lives, building a new home, planning holidays, involved with friends and extended family, exercising with trainers. Nothing even points to morose, sad or suicidal behavior on Barry's part.
Finally the death scene staging is not typical of a M-S. It is my understanding typical M-Ss occurr in areas that have great significance to the deceased parties. (bedroom, garden, library, etc.) Was the pool area a 'special' area for the Shermans?
What is the advantage or benefit to the family to have it ruled a M-M if that is not what happened?
The parents are dead, the will and estate will go through the same processes regardless of causes of death. The Sherman leagacy has not changed because of the cause of death as far I can tell.
Is there any evidence or indication that it was a M-S. No suicide note, no signs of Clinical Depression. Both Shermans were leading a active full lives, building a new home, planning holidays, involved with friends and extended family, exercising with trainers. Nothing even points to morose, sad or suicidal behavior on Barry's part.
Finally the death scene staging is not typical of a M-S. It is my understanding typical M-Ss occurr in areas that have great significance to the deceased parties. (bedroom, garden, library, etc.) Was the pool area a 'special' area for the Shermans?
MistyWaters
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Kerry I’m surprised that you appear to be familiar with a different set of reported facts about this case.
Greenspan’s team couldn’t have discovered marks on the wrists as the skin had already been removed by the time Chiasson completed an independent autopsy. Or is this (nonpaylocked) Star report not true?
BBM
“Veteran forensic pathologist Dr. David Chiasson stood beside Barry Sherman’s body on the stainless steel table, preparing to do a second, private autopsy. Natural light filtered through the frosted glass windows of the modern Ontario coroner’s building. Three private detectives, former homicide cops, stood nearby.
The skin was missing from around Sherman’s wrists, surgically removed by another pathologist several days before in the first examination, the official autopsy requested by the police. The same had been done to Honey Sherman’s wrists.”
How the investigation into the deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman turned from murder-suicide to double homicide
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Yes, I was going to point out the same, thank you.
But why the first pathologist couldn’t come to the logical conclusion of MM based on that is beyond me.
MistyWaters
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Unlike the US, in Canada Provincial Coroners do not interface with the general public regarding progress or outcomes of their autopsy work so we don’t know he changed his mind. But it reportedly requires about 6 weeks for topology tests to be completed and the Final Autopsy Report isn’t signed off until all testing is complete.
Was it only a coincidence the official announcement of Manner of Death of double homicide also occurred about 6 weeks after the murder? Early on the homicide team had taken lead and by then over a hundred people had been interviewed, a huge amount of CCTV collected, boxes and boxes of evidence removed from the home plus it was held as a crime scene for the entire time. TPS officially and consistently stated the deaths were “suspicious” so aside from the anonymous “leak” to the media that TPS was investigating a m/s, every other indication was a double homicide investigation was already taking place.
So maybe the part omitted by the “police source” was TPS was actively investigating the possibility of either M/S or double homicide in partnership with the Coroner’s Office? Was it ever reported M/S was the ONE and ONLY manner of death ever considered early on.....no I don’t think so. Another possibility, did TPS have two teams working independently from one another, one assigned to a M/S theory, another double homicide? We really don’t know much at all.
If M/S vs double homicide had both been on the table - just as Gomes stated - and given the posing of the bodies, looking into both actually a matter of good due diligence. The worst case scenario for the Prosecution is a defendant who declares he’s not guilty because a murder didn’t occur and m/s had never been investigated due to bowing to pressure by the family or political influence, yadda, etc, all that has already been discussed here.
JMO
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MistyWaters
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Typo - toxology
It was reported in the press (or in KD's book I'm not sure) that Dr Pickup did not make a determination as to the MOD after the first autopsies. It was stated that he could not, at that time, make a determination between S/S, M/S, and M/M.
I think one could also say that perhaps the main coincidence regarding the final MOD determination and timing was that it may have been decided as a result of the second autopsies. It is possible the original pathologist Dr Pickup was influenced (or perhaps more strongly, persuaded) as to the MOD by the more senior and more experienced Dr Chiasson. After all, Dr Pickup saw the binding marks on the wrists when he did the first set of autopsies.
To go even further, I suspect there some M/S believers who would argue that someone actually told Dr Pickup what to decide. Who that someone could be is of course wild speculation. But I'm sure there are some people who still believe that's what happened.
Let's hope one day there is a trial and all these unknowns will not represent possible defenses for the accused.
MistyWaters
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Did KDs book mention a source regarding Dr Pickup’s inability to determine whether m/s, s/s or m/m occurred? I’d guess probably not. Everything about his findings has been total speculation. But that we know he’d already removed skin from the wrists of both victims is revealing. The question could be asked - what bodily evidence was left by the time Dr Chiasson conducted his autopsy?
I would certainly hope the Ontario Coroner’s Office - the entity responsible for death investigations including determining cause and manner of death - is certain a double homicide occurred otherwise TPS would look like utter fools in investigating something they can’t be certain happened. Earlier it was reported this investigation was the greatest in terms of resourcing TPS had ever undertaken. But as in virtually every trial I’ve followed, it always amazes me how little information the public is aware of during an investigation, even if we think the media ought to have known it all, they never do.
I believe I recall that Dr Pickup attended the second autopsy, and IIRC he brought pictures of the bodies with him to Dr Chiasson. I believe this was discussed in KD's book (no, no sources are identified). These pictures would undoubtedly show the wrist markings. I suspect these pictures were important and valuable to Dr Chaisson as he conducted the second autopsies and evaluated the results.
How the investigation into the deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman turned from murder-suicide to double homicide
PressReader.com - Your favorite newspapers and magazines.
''May 9, 2018 — Apotex founder Barry Sherman and his wife, Honey. ... Veteran forensic pathologist Dr. David Chiasson stood beside Barry Sherman's body on the ... With him, he brought a series of photographs taken at the death scene''
MistyWaters
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I’m sorry, I’m missing your point. Clearly the skin from the wrists of the victims was removed and photographed by the Coroner’s Office for a specific reason. It was already a suspicious death investigation, the Coroner’s Office tasked with determining the manner of death, so what other reason would there be for them to remove the skin other than it demonstrated evidence of wrist bindings?
Dr Chiasson was only provided photos after the skin was removed so it wasn’t as if he noticed evidence of wrist bindings on the bodies which had been entirely overlooked by the Coroner’s Office in a way such as “Ha, see what you missed!”
It seems to me both Pickup and Chiasson agreed with the same conclusion - double homicide. As the full autopsy report isn’t released, we cannot know for sure but I’ve got to say the story in the media seems farfetched to me. We already know all sources are not totally reliable given the home security conflicting info. Reporters report about what they’ve been told by their sources, that’s it.
But I’ve never believed at the 11th hour the Coroner’s Office had to be convinced a double homicide occurred, for several reason - one of which we know TPS’s homicide division was lead early on. And it’s the autopsy that reveals medical evidence to indicate how victims died, supported by TPS homicide division’s investigation. But we can agree to disagree.
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Thanks I was just providing context to your statement that said “...the question could be asked - what bodily evidence was left by the time Dr Chiasson conducted his autopsy?...”. I was just reminding everyone that pictures were also available to Dr Chiasson.
Another reason to remove wrist skin with a wide margin is to check for finger prints, after the autopsy and when you can take your time for a thorough examination.
If both/either were held by the wrists using any force, the perps may have inadvertently left finger prints (although I think they'd be gloved), todays science can do marvellous, almost unimaginable things.
They certainly would not have been buried with the wrist skin attached as its such an important area to examine.
Finger prints are amazing things, even after skin falls off, you can get imprints from the 'far side'.
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