Dotta
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I don't understand it either. Besides I would be furiously scribbling my own notes to be absolutely certain I didn't miss anything.
GUILTY UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, found deceased, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #25
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WOW!
"There was a vertical laceration, a split or a tear caused by blunt force which could have been made by a fist or table on the inner surface of the upper lip."
and the signs of asphyxiation only remaining little after death
Crikey no. Pathology definitely wouldn't be on my list of alternative careers.
tedtink
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jamjim
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14:27
No obvious injuries related to non-consensual sex
Justice Lambert read out more of Dr Lyall's evidence relating to a series of bruises in the lower part of the body but could not say if any of these were signs of non-consensual sex.
Libby Squire murder trial updates as jury starts fifth day of talks
No obvious injuries related to non-consensual sex
Justice Lambert read out more of Dr Lyall's evidence relating to a series of bruises in the lower part of the body but could not say if any of these were signs of non-consensual sex.
Libby Squire murder trial updates as jury starts fifth day of talks
klapaucius
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Hello everyone! I hope I’m not replying to anyone but if I do, may I be forgiven. My intention was to add a new post. I’m writing here for the first time as you can tell. I hope I understood the rules of this site correctly but if I put something that’s not right, please let me know !
I have been interested in so many cases throughout the years but this one is special for me, I live locally and remember when LS went missing I was looking out for any signs on the way to and from work. It shook me very much what happened. Poor girl.
I know we all had doubts about the timings and I have made an observation.
Witness SA said as quoted below. From my conclusions he woke up at 12:14, heard the screams at 12:15, 12:16 and while he was in the toilet etc he said after another 4-7mins the screams stopped (12:20,12:23) three to five minutes later (12:26,12:28) he saw a guy walking as he described it. We know that PR wasn’t there at that time and other students said they heard the screams about 12:30.
I know the timings have already been discussed but it’s something that’s stuck in my mind. What do you think about it? The above is my thinking and conclusions I made from what I read. Is it possible that the guy who was seen walking was someone else?
I hope we hear more evidence when this trial ends and that the jury will come to the right verdict giving Libby’s family closure they need.
Quote from HDM: Libby Squire murder trial updates as jury starts fifth day of talks
‘He woke up looked at his phone and said it was about a minute after he looked at his phone he heard a scream. He looked at his phone and it was 12.14am.
"His partner had texted him so he checked the text on his phone and he didn’t know what caused him to wake up. He said when he was awake a minute or two when he heard the screams.
"He said the screams were far away but loud enough to reach his window, around 150 metres away.
"He said ‘in the direction north from my bedroom.’ He said there was a track and a bit of woodland and the river running around the back.
"He was asked some questions about the screams and said the first two were intermittent with 30 seconds or ones minute between and wondered what it was.
"It was the second that got him thinking they had a pattern. He talked about the pattern of life living there teenagers drinking in the park and girls screaming behaviour he intended to ignore.
"He heard the screams again and couldn’t see anything. He said they were human from a woman and said they were enough to think ‘what could they be'.
He said 'they portrayed to me desperation and continued for three to five minutes, three to seven, I can only give you an estimation probably four to seven minutes. I went to the toilet and came back and looked out the window and they had stopped'.
He knelt on his bed and looked out the window. He said it was more he couldn’t see and after around three to five minutes he saw a man walking along the path. It was a man walking along in a manner he described as assertive, not looking behind and knowing where he wanted to go.
"He said he was heading straight forward before he left his vision. He was asked about a police statement he gave in February 4 and said he told the truth at the time.
"He said he had never seen the man running off. He described him as moving as if he wanted to get out of there.
"He had said he wanted to get out of the park and was walking with urgency and moving with a purpose to get off the park. As for the clothing being worn by the man he described joggers or jeans and some sort of hooded jacket.”
I have been interested in so many cases throughout the years but this one is special for me, I live locally and remember when LS went missing I was looking out for any signs on the way to and from work. It shook me very much what happened. Poor girl.
I know we all had doubts about the timings and I have made an observation.
Witness SA said as quoted below. From my conclusions he woke up at 12:14, heard the screams at 12:15, 12:16 and while he was in the toilet etc he said after another 4-7mins the screams stopped (12:20,12:23) three to five minutes later (12:26,12:28) he saw a guy walking as he described it. We know that PR wasn’t there at that time and other students said they heard the screams about 12:30.
I know the timings have already been discussed but it’s something that’s stuck in my mind. What do you think about it? The above is my thinking and conclusions I made from what I read. Is it possible that the guy who was seen walking was someone else?
I hope we hear more evidence when this trial ends and that the jury will come to the right verdict giving Libby’s family closure they need.
Quote from HDM: Libby Squire murder trial updates as jury starts fifth day of talks
‘He woke up looked at his phone and said it was about a minute after he looked at his phone he heard a scream. He looked at his phone and it was 12.14am.
"His partner had texted him so he checked the text on his phone and he didn’t know what caused him to wake up. He said when he was awake a minute or two when he heard the screams.
"He said the screams were far away but loud enough to reach his window, around 150 metres away.
"He said ‘in the direction north from my bedroom.’ He said there was a track and a bit of woodland and the river running around the back.
"He was asked some questions about the screams and said the first two were intermittent with 30 seconds or ones minute between and wondered what it was.
"It was the second that got him thinking they had a pattern. He talked about the pattern of life living there teenagers drinking in the park and girls screaming behaviour he intended to ignore.
"He heard the screams again and couldn’t see anything. He said they were human from a woman and said they were enough to think ‘what could they be'.
He said 'they portrayed to me desperation and continued for three to five minutes, three to seven, I can only give you an estimation probably four to seven minutes. I went to the toilet and came back and looked out the window and they had stopped'.
He knelt on his bed and looked out the window. He said it was more he couldn’t see and after around three to five minutes he saw a man walking along the path. It was a man walking along in a manner he described as assertive, not looking behind and knowing where he wanted to go.
"He said he was heading straight forward before he left his vision. He was asked about a police statement he gave in February 4 and said he told the truth at the time.
"He said he had never seen the man running off. He described him as moving as if he wanted to get out of there.
"He had said he wanted to get out of the park and was walking with urgency and moving with a purpose to get off the park. As for the clothing being worn by the man he described joggers or jeans and some sort of hooded jacket.”
Surface
Officer Dibble
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eek
jamjim
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14:29
No signs of natural death
Justice Lambert said Dr lyall looked at parts of the body and did an internal examination on the body.
She said: “There was no bleeding in the brain or skull the facial bones was intact. He looked at the horse shoe shaped bone at the back behind the tongue and couldn’t see any damage to that.
"He looked at the voice box and said as a forensic pathologist he was obsessed by this because if there is damaged it can be caused by blunt trauma to the back of the neck. He couldn’t see no damage and preserved them and they were sent off for examination.
"He looked at the lungs and they were slightly crackly as if there was some air trapped in them.
"He could not find any evidence of naturally occurring cause of death or contributing factor to death.”
A further examination of voice box found no injury but that is not conclusive as Dr Lyall said young people have more felixible voice boxes so it is not necessarily the case there was no trauma.
Libby Squire murder trial updates as jury starts fifth day of talks
No signs of natural death
Justice Lambert said Dr lyall looked at parts of the body and did an internal examination on the body.
She said: “There was no bleeding in the brain or skull the facial bones was intact. He looked at the horse shoe shaped bone at the back behind the tongue and couldn’t see any damage to that.
"He looked at the voice box and said as a forensic pathologist he was obsessed by this because if there is damaged it can be caused by blunt trauma to the back of the neck. He couldn’t see no damage and preserved them and they were sent off for examination.
"He looked at the lungs and they were slightly crackly as if there was some air trapped in them.
"He could not find any evidence of naturally occurring cause of death or contributing factor to death.”
A further examination of voice box found no injury but that is not conclusive as Dr Lyall said young people have more felixible voice boxes so it is not necessarily the case there was no trauma.
Libby Squire murder trial updates as jury starts fifth day of talks
Ruthbullock
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Knowing how many times she fell over that evening- I don’t think we can count that cut in her mouth as a wow statement. She has basically bit through the inside of her mouth with her teeth - could be caused by falling against a table or the floor. In order to be caused by PR he would have had to hit or punch in the mouth area and I think that would have caused more damage than just a laceration. JMO and I could be wrong, but it’s a common injury amongst young children who don’t have the quick response to put their hands out when they fall.
VicBlazey
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Legally Bland
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Am I being daft here, is "table" a typo?
tedtink
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Nobody said her mouth was bleeding prior to PR picking her up.
It could have been pressure (fist or hand) on the outside of the face causing the teeth to cut into the lip on the inside.
jamjim
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14:36
Pathologist could not say how Libby died
Justice Lamber continued: "He [Dr Lyall] wasn’t able to say how Libby Squire died and the cause of death had to be unascertained.
"What you have to do as a forensic pathologist is look at other evidence in the case. Number 1: drowning.
"He says this has to be one of the first considerations and said this can be a difficult cause of death to pronounce. He says there are easy cases like when witnesses see somebody drown.
"He said in what he described as a classic drowning case you might see froth or foam emerging from the mouth and can follow that right down into the lungs.
"He said in that example the lungs would be well expanded so that they obscure the heart and the lungs have a crackly quality.
"He said in relation to his findings the lungs did feel a bit crackly but they weren’t wet or very expanded and there was no froth emerging from the mouth. He wasn’t prepared to say that this was the likely explanation for her death."
Libby Squire murder trial updates as jury starts fifth day of talks
Pathologist could not say how Libby died
Justice Lamber continued: "He [Dr Lyall] wasn’t able to say how Libby Squire died and the cause of death had to be unascertained.
"What you have to do as a forensic pathologist is look at other evidence in the case. Number 1: drowning.
"He says this has to be one of the first considerations and said this can be a difficult cause of death to pronounce. He says there are easy cases like when witnesses see somebody drown.
"He said in what he described as a classic drowning case you might see froth or foam emerging from the mouth and can follow that right down into the lungs.
"He said in that example the lungs would be well expanded so that they obscure the heart and the lungs have a crackly quality.
"He said in relation to his findings the lungs did feel a bit crackly but they weren’t wet or very expanded and there was no froth emerging from the mouth. He wasn’t prepared to say that this was the likely explanation for her death."
Libby Squire murder trial updates as jury starts fifth day of talks
Officer Dibble
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I agree my first thought was that was from her falling over on the pavements
NottReds50
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Yes, and wouldn't an adult falling over on their face cause a lot more injuries than a small laceration?
jamjim
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14:38
Hypothermia as cause of death considered
Justice Lambert went on to explain Dr Lyall's views on hypothermia as a cause of death.
She said: "Dr Lyall was asked whether or not this may be a stand-alone cause of death or as a contributing factor caused her death.
"He said in a community environment death by hypothermia can take place if someone isn’t adequately clothed or if that clothing gets wet or if someone had been drinking alcohol.
"The problem again is that as a cause of death the findings are not always either there and if they are they are not always specific of just that for a cause of death.
"Again, he wasn’t prepared to exclude hypothermia but there wasn’t any findings that would mean he would advance it as a cause of death."
Libby Squire murder trial updates as jury starts fifth day of talks
Hypothermia as cause of death considered
Justice Lambert went on to explain Dr Lyall's views on hypothermia as a cause of death.
She said: "Dr Lyall was asked whether or not this may be a stand-alone cause of death or as a contributing factor caused her death.
"He said in a community environment death by hypothermia can take place if someone isn’t adequately clothed or if that clothing gets wet or if someone had been drinking alcohol.
"The problem again is that as a cause of death the findings are not always either there and if they are they are not always specific of just that for a cause of death.
"Again, he wasn’t prepared to exclude hypothermia but there wasn’t any findings that would mean he would advance it as a cause of death."
Libby Squire murder trial updates as jury starts fifth day of talks
jamjim
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14:41
Violent assault explored
Dr Lyall also looked to see if violence was a cause or a factor in Libby's death
Justice Lamber told the jury: “Violent assault at the time of death: Dr Lyall went into the difficulties with seeing the changes in the body after death and the fact the body had been in the water for such a period of time.
"He said there was areas on the body that could represent bruising but the majority couldn’t be said as being caused in life or after death.
"He said there could have been some kind of smothering or neck pressure or a combination or there could have been injuries but because of decomposition he simply couldn’t see them so he said cause of death was in ascertained.”
Libby Squire murder trial updates as jury starts fifth day of talks
Violent assault explored
Dr Lyall also looked to see if violence was a cause or a factor in Libby's death
Justice Lamber told the jury: “Violent assault at the time of death: Dr Lyall went into the difficulties with seeing the changes in the body after death and the fact the body had been in the water for such a period of time.
"He said there was areas on the body that could represent bruising but the majority couldn’t be said as being caused in life or after death.
"He said there could have been some kind of smothering or neck pressure or a combination or there could have been injuries but because of decomposition he simply couldn’t see them so he said cause of death was in ascertained.”
Libby Squire murder trial updates as jury starts fifth day of talks
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