GUILTY UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, found deceased, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #25

[Sally4x]

I really am feeling for Libby’s parents. To not know how your child died is so difficult to live with. My brother died in 2014 and his body wasn’t found until many months later. He wasn’t murdered, but the length of time after death led to an inconclusive post mortem. His death certificate says that as the cause of death. It has led to a lot of unanswered questions and theories for my mum and dad that they will have to live with for the rest of their lives.

 

[ChiCubs2016]

I think it's quite a British thing to say 'I fell flat on my face' but, it isn't to be taken as literally as it sounds. Same goes for 'I went arse over tit' ... it just means 'fell' in some way.

Love this!!

 

[tedtink]

My guess would be to explain the fact it was vertical? So it would have to be caused by something pressing vertically like falling onto something like a table edge or being hit.

It's interesting that it's vertical. Would that happen in water?

It may be how the tissues of the lip area are constructed, for the cut to be vertical.
I have no medical training but if you see the classic 'split lip' after a punch it's usually vertical.

 

[bos]

I think it's quite a British thing to say 'I fell flat on my face' but, it isn't to be taken as literally as it sounds. Same goes for 'I went arse over tit' ... it just means 'fell' in some way.

Agreed. If I literally meant someone’s face hit the ground first I’d probably say face-planted & describe state of face immediately after like “not a mark on her”/“her mouth was bleeding”,”lip swelled like a balloon” etc to underline that I literally meant face was the thing to hit the ground first

 

[MsMiniSleuth]

Nothing there in Dr Lyall's evidence to suggest murder. Will be interested to see what the final verdict is and what percentage of the jury went which way. If I were there I would not be budging from not guilty on the sole basis of the evidence and her cause of death being officially unexplained.

 

[C.greek]

My guess is it was used as an illustration of blunt force trauma; you can be still and hit by a moving object e.g a fist or moving and hit by a still object e.g a table.

I took it as a synonym of a hard surface, we do use plane or table to mean surface

 

[MsMiniSleuth]

Nobody said her mouth was bleeding prior to PR picking her up.
It could have been pressure (fist or hand) on the outside of the face causing the teeth to cut into the lip on the inside.

Doesn't mean it didn't happen. Or that it didn't happen in the Oak fields as she was stumbling around on the icy ground after being raped and before falling in river.

 

[C.greek]

The mouth is quite vascular so if she'd fallen earlier we wouldn't witnesses have mentioned blood on her mouth. Or indeed other facial injuries.

Indeed, gums, tongue and lips have a lot of blood supply so any cut(ie laceration= a cut through the skin not just a superficial cut) there would bleed a lot.

 

[C.greek]

Doesn't mean it didn't happen. Or that it didn't happen in the Oak fields as she was stumbling around on the icy ground after being raped and before falling in river.

Where would she find the surface to cause her this blunt trauma?

 

[Ruthbullock]

He did didn't he? Fist or table edge

That’s an either/or choice- not a statement that it was one or the other but rather it could have been human, but equally likely it could have been something static that she hit by falling.

 

[Ruthbullock]

Where would she find the surface to cause her this blunt trauma?

Benches, kerbs, a rock or even a tiny pebble, as was first reported when he was questioned it also could have occurred post mortem in the river

 

[C.greek]

Personally I doubt that as it would have to be a sharp quick force in a specific place to pierce the skin like that. I don’t think a human could apply that much specific force voluntarily and only cause a laceration- it would cause significant damage. CPR is the perfect example - you would break the bones before you pierced the skin with the force. If he felt he could declare it was caused by a human hitting LS I believe he would have done.

He did though didn't he? Thus the mention of the fist?

 

[C.greek]

He did didn't he? Fist or table edge

No table edge. Table must mean something like a hard surface.

 

[Ruthbullock]

Indeed, gums, tongue and lips have a lot of blood supply so any cut(ie laceration= a cut through the skin not just a superficial cut) there would bleed a lot.

In my previous line of work I have seen multitudes, I would go so far as to say hundreds of small people who have fallen over and cut the inside of their mouths- it causes surprisingly little bleeding (unlike an external cut on the head), literally they can swill their mouth with water and it has stopped

 

[MsMiniSleuth]

Where would she find the surface to cause her this blunt trauma?

Something she went into, even something thrown in river, as old rubbish often is. Or surely hitting a hard, heavily iced ground or object would have same effect? I don't know. No one does or will ever do. I am just saying that it cannot be taken as a fact her having been hit by a human hand or fist.

 

[Dotta]

We really didn’t get the whole report, the first time, did we?

How very sad to to hear it, though.

Defence said sth about water in left lung - but it wasn't mentioned in the recap.

 

[Newthoughts]

Nothing there in Dr Lyall's evidence to suggest murder. Will be interested to see what the final verdict is and what percentage of the jury went which way. If I were there I would not be budging from not guilty on the sole basis of the evidence and her cause of death being officially unexplained.

No there is nothing in Dr Lyall's evidence to prove murder.

His inclusion of asphyxiation as a possible cause suggests murder as an option.

 

[tedtink]

Defence said sth about water in left lung - but it wasn't mentioned in the recap.

I think the original mention by Lyall was 'fluid' not water.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

No there is nothing in Dr Lyall's evidence to prove murder.

His inclusion of asphyxiation as a possible cause suggests murder as an option.

And I think this is the most likely option, he silenced her until she couldn’t breathe.

There have been plenty of murder convictions with NO body and therefore NO defined cause of death.

 

[C.greek]

In my previous line of work I have seen multitudes, I would go so far as to say hundreds of small people who have fallen over and cut the inside of their mouths- it causes surprisingly little bleeding (unlike an external cut on the head), literally they can swill their mouth with water and it has stopped

I appreciate this but i respectfully admit that for a laceration to be found on a body being 7 weeks in water and to be presented to the court in the pathologist's report it would have been significant. I cannot cite now the articles but forensic pathologists use lacerations on the head (mouth as well) to determine homicide or accident.