Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #130

[Nancy1954]

If there was nothing between those words.. "Guys and down the hill".. why did LE find it necessary to put that sound like breaking glass in between the "Guys.. and down the hill?"

 

[Pyschsandi]

If victims are covered or attempts are made to hide their bodies, wouldn’t the typical reason be to delay discovery of the crime? The longer that time passes, the more difficult it becomes for forensic teams to gather “fresh” evidence and witnesses to recall precise details.

Hiding a body isn’t really “staging” in the true sense, as it’s not done to misdirect an investigation into mistaking the manner of death (ie an accident occurred instead of murder). Typically hiding a body simply conceals a homicide from being discovered quickly.

If there were attempts were made to implicate an innocent person, LE has never said but if that were so, it was unsuccessful as nobody has been charged. But that’s a great example why I doubt any suspect would be charged solely on DNA or identifiable items found near a crime scene in an outdoor publicly accessible area that was also unfenced. Because it doesn’t prove beyond reasonable doubt that same person was responsible for committing the murders. The path from the cemetery along RL’s land looked fairly well worn iirc suggesting the crime scene location was near a short cut to the bridge used by others from time to time. JMO

If victims are covered or attempts are made to hide their bodies, wouldn’t the typical reason be to delay discovery of the crime? The longer that time passes, the more difficult it becomes for forensic teams to gather “fresh” evidence and witnesses to recall precise details.

Hiding a body isn’t really “staging” in the true sense, as it’s not done to misdirect an investigation into mistaking the manner of death (ie an accident occurred instead of murder). Typically hiding a body simply conceals a homicide from being discovered quickly.

If there were attempts were made to implicate an innocent person, LE has never said but if that were so, it was unsuccessful as nobody has been charged. But that’s a great example why I doubt any suspect would be charged solely on DNA or identifiable items found near a crime scene in an outdoor publicly accessible area that was also unfenced. Because it doesn’t prove beyond reasonable doubt that same person was responsible for committing the murders. The path from the cemetery along RL’s land looked fairly well worn iirc suggesting the crime scene location was near a short cut to the bridge used by others from time to time. JMO

“According to Douglas and Munn, staging materializes when someone purposefully alters the crime scene prior to the arrival of the police in order to either redirect the investigation away from the most logical suspect or to protect the victim or the victim’s family (Douglas and Munn 1992). Staging is attained by altering physical evidence at the scene after and at times before the homicide in order to present a misleading appearance of the crime scene. It imitates a ‘legitimate death’ scenario or a disappearance of the victim (Chisum and Turvey 2011; Pettler 2016). Staging is thus a primary means of purposefully obstructing the criminal justice process by concealing the true nature of a crime (Hazelwood and Napier 2004: 745; Cobin 2009: 1).”
Yifat Bitton, Hava Dayan, ‘The Perfect Murder’: An Exploratory Study of Staged Murder Scenes and Concealed Femicide, The British Journal of Criminology, Volume 59, Issue 5, September 2019, Pages 1054–1075, ‘The Perfect Murder’: An Exploratory Study of Staged Murder Scenes and Concealed Femicide

 

[Pyschsandi]

“According to Douglas and Munn, staging materializes when someone purposefully alters the crime scene prior to the arrival of the police in order to either redirect the investigation away from the most logical suspect or to protect the victim or the victim’s family (Douglas and Munn 1992). Staging is attained by altering physical evidence at the scene after and at times before the homicide in order to present a misleading appearance of the crime scene. It imitates a ‘legitimate death’ scenario or a disappearance of the victim (Chisum and Turvey 2011; Pettler 2016). Staging is thus a primary means of purposefully obstructing the criminal justice process by concealing the true nature of a crime (Hazelwood and Napier 2004: 745; Cobin 2009: 1).”
Yifat Bitton, Hava Dayan, ‘The Perfect Murder’: An Exploratory Study of Staged Murder Scenes and Concealed Femicide, The British Journal of Criminology, Volume 59, Issue 5, September 2019, Pages 1054–1075, ‘The Perfect Murder’: An Exploratory Study of Staged Murder Scenes and Concealed Femicide

I found in this same article something that former FBI agent O’toole said that staging is usually done by someone that knows the victims.

 

[stattlich1]

I'm going to speculate this screenshot shows 4x8 sheets of fiberboard on the bridge. My estimate is that the bridge is about 10 feet wide, with around 7 feet between the wooden rails running lengthwise on either side.

Estimation MOO

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

I can definitely make out a scream. One of the girls screamed “oh my God” between “Guys” and “down the hill”. It is garbled but I can still hear it.

What astute & sharp hearing you have! ::clapping::

 

[photographer4]

If victims are covered or attempts are made to hide their bodies, wouldn’t the typical reason be to delay discovery of the crime? The longer that time passes, the more difficult it becomes for forensic teams to gather “fresh” evidence and witnesses to recall precise details.

Hiding a body isn’t really “staging” in the true sense, as it’s not done to misdirect an investigation into mistaking the manner of death (ie an accident occurred instead of murder). Typically hiding a body simply conceals a homicide from being discovered quickly.

If there were attempts were made to implicate an innocent person, LE has never said but if that were so, it was unsuccessful as nobody has been charged. But that’s a great example why I doubt any suspect would be charged solely on DNA or identifiable items found near a crime scene in an outdoor publicly accessible area that was also unfenced. Because it doesn’t prove beyond reasonable doubt that same person was responsible for committing the murders. The path from the cemetery along RL’s land looked fairly well worn iirc suggesting the crime scene location was near a short cut to the bridge used by others from time to time. JMO

The way I understood it, hiding bodies was different than covering them. Covering seemed to mean with a blanket or other clothing. Hiding seems to mean more like... dumping them somewhere else, or concealing them in a cave, or in a lake etc.... Covering the victim's bodies, changing their clothes, washing bodies... these were listed specifically as examples of "undoing" which they related to signs of remorse.

I also understand from reading the transcripts of DTH podcast that Sgt Riley noted she stood about 300 feet away from the bodies and on a ridge of sorts. She noted she could look down and see the bodies just laying there. Loosely paraphrased. If indeed one could see the bodies just laying there from 300 feet away, then I'd surmise they weren't really "hidden". If they were covered, that might be an indicator of remorse in this case, but not an attempt to "hide" them. Hope I've made sense.

 

[flashy09]

If there was nothing between those words.. "Guys and down the hill".. why did LE find it necessary to put that sound like breaking glass in between the "Guys.. and down the hill?"

I think the phone is in a pocket. If there was anything clear to be heard that LE didn't want heard, they could splice it and just give two separate clips to the public.

 

[Charlot123]

I'm new here, so this has probably been discussed thoroughly already, but I also have an opinion about the audio file. Imagine BG is someone that is tangentially connected to the two girls, as in they might recognize him to some extent, and he they, although they probably don't know each others names. His face is just somewhat recognizable as an adult they have seen before, perhaps in some position of authority (relative authority, at least in the eyes of a young girl).

BG approaches the girls on the bridge and plays into that role. He tells them "Guys" almost as if he is disappointed in them that he found them on the bridge, somewhere they are not supposed to be. He then points towards where he wants them to go and tells them "down the hill," and they comply because they think they are just being directed off the bridge.

I do think that BG had a gun, but I think that this is a more likely scenario for how he got them off of the bridge than him coercing them at gunpoint, just because of how visible they would be out on the bridge.

If I were a kid, and an adult approached me, I don't know what I would have said. Kids are naturally shy in the presence of adults, sometimes they avoid looking into adults' faces, too. Also, facial memory is an odd thing. There is one that allows you to "over-recognize" (in fact, what your brain registers is "this person resembles me of someone", the 'someone' might have met seen yesterday, or very distant past).

 

[Yemelyan]

The way I understood it, hiding bodies was different than covering them. Covering seemed to mean with a blanket or other clothing. Hiding seems to mean more like... dumping them somewhere else, or concealing them in a cave, or in a lake etc.... Covering the victim's bodies, changing their clothes, washing bodies... these were listed specifically as examples of "undoing" which they related to signs of remorse.

I also understand from reading the transcripts of DTH podcast that Sgt Riley noted she stood about 300 feet away from the bodies and on a ridge of sorts. She noted she could look down and see the bodies just laying there. Loosely paraphrased. If indeed one could see the bodies just laying there from 300 feet away, then I'd surmise they weren't really "hidden". If they were covered, that might be an indicator of remorse in this case, but not an attempt to "hide" them. Hope I've made sense.

Not that it matters a ton but just FYI...Sgt. Kim Riley is actually a he, not a she.

 

[photographer4]

Not that it matters a ton but just FYI...Sgt. Kim Riley is actually a he, not a she.

Makes sense. I've not heard the podcasts, I've only read the transcripts. I much prefer to read than watch videos / listen to podcasts.

 

[Yemelyan]

I found in this same article something that former FBI agent O’toole said that staging is usually done by someone that knows the victims.

You'll find posters in this thread use the word "staging" very arbitrarily. Some are using staging as it is commonly defined by LE - the deliberate alteration of the scene to mis-direct the investigation. Other posters are calling the offender behavior criminologists would refer to as "posing" or "undoing" staging instead. Still others are referring to the crime scene being "staged" and apparently they mean something like, the offender brought a kill kit to the location where he ultimately led the girls. Only the first definition is considered primary staging.

Signature behaviors such as posing the victim, especially if meant to degrade the victim or shock the public/LE, are rarely done by offenders who know their victims. They are using their victims as objects and may undergo other behaviors aimed at depersonalizing - beating or mutilating the face of the victim or eliminating secondary sexual characteristics. This type of "undoing" is not associated with a victim/offender relationship outside of the crime IMO.

Primary staging, on the other hand, is highly associated with a victim/offender relationship that pre-dates the crime. It's commonly done to direct LE away from likely motive and the discernable association between victim and offender. An example of primary staging (that Mary Ellen O'Toole was talking about) would be, a husband kills his wife in a domestic violence incident but after the fact stages the scene to make it look like she walked in on a robbery in progress.

I posted a week or so ago about the different types of primary staging. The most common one is staging a homicide to look like an accident, followed by staging a homicide to look like a missing person, followed by staging a burglary/robbery. Less common is staging a homicide to appear as if it was a suicide. Staging a scene to look like a sexual homicide is the rarest of all according to FBI studies of homicide.

 

[Yemelyan]

Makes sense. I've not heard the podcasts, I've only read the transcripts. I much prefer to read than watch videos / listen to podcasts.

If you've seen any of the press conferences, Riley is the affable older male trooper who often introduces the speakers and announces where the bathrooms are. He retired a few months ago, though.

Like I said, it doesn't matter much in the grand scheme of things but just didn't want you to be confused when you saw other posters calling Kim Riley "he."

 

[MegPTdoc]

Go back to the first page of this discussion, then check out the map page. There are pictures and videos that show the bridge.

Great idea at @sunshineray I am looking for a map or good picture of the bridges structure. If I go back to the very first page of this discussion there is a map? Under what title, do you know? I’m having a hard time finding it

 

[MegPTdoc]

THANK YOU!!

Email is the preferred way to send tips to help solve this crime.

Anyone with information about this case is encouraged to send tips to this email address: abbyandlibbytip@cacoshrf.com

Information sent by email is kept confidential and is only shared with investigators. The telephone Tip Line is (844) 459-5786. Tips are also accepted by the Indiana State Police at (800) 382-7537, or by the Carroll County Sheriff’s Department at (765) 564-2413.

Tip Information Contacts
e-Mail: abbyandlibbytip@cacoshrf.com
Tip Line: (844) 459-5786
Indiana State Police: (800) 382-7537
Carroll County Sheriff: (765) 564-2413

ISP: Delphi Homicide Investigation

Prosecutors are looking for specific information in tips, including the name of the suspect or person of interest; a detailed description and personal identifiers, such as tattoos or birthmarks; age or birth date; last known address or place where the person is often seen; and lastly, their possible motivation and connection to the case.

 

[MegPTdoc]

Great idea at @sunshineray I am looking for a map or good picture of the bridges structure. If I go back to the very first page of this discussion there is a map? Under what title, do you know? I’m having a hard time finding it

I was just thinking that what would be the most helpful for me to help further differentiate BG gait pattern from others walking on uneven surfaces would be if any one has a video of themselves or someone they know walking on the Monon High Bridge?

 

[MistyWaters]

From the many books I’ve read by profilers, covering the body can mean as you said hiding it so it’s not easily seen. The perpetrator will also cover a body so they can’t see what they had just done. In covering the body, the perpetrator may feel remorse or they feel some type of shame, possibly an afterthought after they come out of the frenzied like haze they had been in while committing the crime. All of this is JMO.

I agree that covering a body in a situation of domestic violence by a raging idiot unable to control his or her aggression might indicate remorse. But I think in this case associating words such as shame or remorse to somebody who murdered not one but two teens, who’s now thumbing his nose at LE by not coming forward to admit to it as well as leaving the family members in a state of perpetual limbo is far too generous.

It’s far more likely the culprit had no feelings whatsoever toward his victims, otherwise the girls would still be alive. Whatever his motive was these murders were certainly not justified. JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

I was just thinking that what would be the most helpful for me to help further differentiate BG gait pattern from others walking on uneven surfaces would be if any one has a video of themselves or someone they know walking on the Monon High Bridge?

This video will give you an idea of the state of the bridge and why it’d be impossible for anyone to stride smoothly across it.

“Carter also said because they know where the man was walking on the bridge his walk is not natural because of the spacing between the ties and the deterioration in that area of the bridge.”
https://www.wrtv.com/news/delphi/the-delphi-murders-four-years-later-and-still-no-arrests

 

[Angels27]

I just noticed in PC 2019 Sheriff TL is obviously there for DC’s safety. Notice how on high alert/ on guard TL looks and how close he is standing to him. I think they really thought the perp might be there. Also NOTICED TL starring intently at one place in the crowd. We cannot see the crowd in version I just watched, but he is clearly fixed on one person there and he continues to look away back at DC as to not make it look so obvious, imo. Then his eyes go right back to that same spot, about eye level of where an adult would be sitting. I think he is looking for a reaction from someone in that room. Do any locals know if everyone was searched and/or went thru a metal detector before entering that PC? TLs eye are definitely fixed on ONE particular point in that room. If they were smart they wired that room to the hilt to monitor every possible reaction.

2. I feel so sorry for TL, who early on took heat online. In my own mind I ruled him out immediately based on a unique linguist trait he has, that BG does not. Also imo he seems like a stand-up guy. I couldn’t have taken the accusations with such grace.

 

[Angels27]

Do you guys think the BG video of him walking looks like he’s got rips in the knees of his jeans? It looks more that way to me in video than it does in still photo. I still wonder what that big flat rectangular metal like thing is down his left leg. I bet that’s why he’s walking that way. I wonder what kind of tool or whatever it could be. Any guesses?

 

[Charlot123]

I just noticed in PC 2019 Sheriff TL is obviously there for DC’s safety. Notice how on high alert/ on guard TL looks and how close he is standing to him. I think they really thought the perp might be there. Also NOTICED TL starring intently at one place in the crowd. We cannot see the crowd in version I just watched, but he is clearly fixed on one person there and he continues to look away back at DC as to not make it look so obvious, imo. Then his eyes go right back to that same spot, about eye level of where an adult would be sitting. I think he is looking for a reaction from someone in that room. Do any locals know if everyone was searched and/or went thru a metal detector before entering that PC? TLs eye are definitely fixed on ONE particular point in that room. If they were smart they wired that room to the hilt to monitor every possible reaction.

2. I feel so sorry for TL, who early on took heat online. In my own mind I ruled him out immediately based on a unique linguist trait he has, that BG does not. Also imo he seems like a stand-up guy. I couldn’t have taken the accusations with such grace.

I am not sure, I think that they both represented ISP, and as such, were on their own. Perhaps two of them met with the relatives first, and then walked out to the podium?

Agree about TL. I think even DC managed to be accused at one point, there are a lot of conspiracy theories around ))