Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #136

[Yemelyan]

In addition to Holeman’s comments, Leazenby referred to “a witness” as well. At the time I recall wondering how accurate would a witness’s memory be in creating a sketch months after the fact.

July 17, 2017
Witness aided in sketch of suspect in Indiana teens' deaths | National Post
“Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby said the witness saw the man walking near Delphi, about 60 miles (100 kilometres) northwest of Indianapolis, but only recently met with an FBI sketch artist to provide facial details for the rendering released by State Police…”

Considering that facial memory is not that accurate even a day or two afterwards, and considering that research shows that composites become less accurate after witnesses view photo lineups (we don't know that that occurred here but based on how Holeman said they had to figure out if the witnesses were describing known people who were out there searching vs. the killer, I'm thinking it possibly did)....I'm guessing this contributed to why the first composite was eventually ruled to be not that accurate.

 

[MistyWaters]

Considering that facial memory is not that accurate even a day or two afterwards, and considering that research shows that composites become less accurate after witnesses view photo lineups (we don't know that that occurred here but based on how Holeman said they had to figure out if the witnesses were describing known people who were out there searching vs. the killer, I'm thinking it possibly did)....I'm guessing this contributed to why the first composite was eventually ruled to be not that accurate.

I agree, and the influence of the image in the photo on the witnesses’s memory had to have been a strong factor assuming this person looked at it more than a few times during those five months and became convinced her impression of the man in the photo was exactly who she saw. JMO

ETA - or “he”

 

[Charlot123]

No one saw BG killing the girls. So the sketches might be based on the people seen on the vicinity of the bridge on that fateful day, within a certain timeframe. To add to it, the sketches probably serve as proofs that someone’s suspicions could be true, and are by no mean portraits.

…Just thought about what I have recently read in an interesting book on criminology. The author discussed catching one of serial killers. The detectives were looking at the times of his murders - the earlier the time of the killings, they thought, the farther from his home the killer would travel, as he had to return home on time…

The Delphi girls were killed during the day. I wonder what it could tell us about the radius of the murderer’s traveling back. One of his alibis could have been having a very ordinary evening (that day). (Unless he, indeed, has the reason to travel, and travels frequently).

 

[GA_Peach]

I don't know if the first sketch used any input from the video, but it definitely was not based 100% from it. There were human witnesses who contributed to the first-shared composite sketch.

We know this because when lead investigator Sgt. Holeman appeared with the victims' families at CrimeCon in 2018 (this was prior to the "new" or young BG sketch being released), he did a panel with reporter Ashleigh Banfield where he described how that original "old" BG composite sketch was developed:

Banfield: But there were witnesses if I’m not mistaken who were able to lend information that got you to the sketch [Sergeant Holeman nods affirmatively]. Can you tell me a little bit about the witnesses? Where did they come from, what did they see?

Holeman: I don’t want to go into great detail, but they were near or on the trail....Again, it takes a lot of time. I’m not a sketch artist. The FBI actually–an agent from the FBI–did the sketch. And you know, I think when somebody sketches it takes like, 10 minutes [shakes head ‘no’]. It takes several weeks. But to get the information, to find the people that we believe saw that person that day near the time of the murders, that takes months. So we had to locate these people, interview them, find out who they really saw. Did they really see the guy on the bridge from the video, or did they see Mike out there helping search, or did they see somebody else out there helping with the search? So we had to identify those people, and once we felt like we identified the people that actually saw the guy on the bridge, then the sketch itself took, again, several weeks. They sketched it, looked at it, “No…that’s not correct”. I will say that she still–[Clarification note: he quickly corrects his use of ‘she’ to ‘they’]—they, there’s a couple people— still aren’t convinced that’s the proper hat, but that’s the hat that the sketch artist could come up with as close to what the witnesses were describing.

The source for this transcript of the CrimeCon interview is: Delphi Murders CrimeCon Interview Transcript - CrimeLights

Can you refresh my memory about when the OBG composite was released? I thought that sketch was released within days of their murder, not weeks after the fact. That was the sketch that was used for all of the billboards early on in the investigation... or maybe the actual video still was on the billboard. Everything is getting jumbled! In any event, I think that the OBG sketch was based on/influenced by the video.

 

[Yemelyan]

Can you refresh my memory about when the OBG composite was released? I thought that sketch was released within days of their murder, not weeks after the fact. That was the sketch that was used for all of the billboards early on in the investigation... or maybe the actual video still was on the billboard. Everything is getting jumbled! In any event, I think that the OBG sketch was based on/influenced by the video.

The still images from the video were released within days and were on the billboards, that might be what you are recalling.

The original "old BG" sketch was released a few months later, in the summer of 2017. This article from mid July 2017 is about the newly released composite and was written within a day or so of its release.

Composite sketch released in Delphi killings

 

[MistyWaters]

Can you refresh my memory about when the OBG composite was released? I thought that sketch was released within days of their murder, not weeks after the fact. That was the sketch that was used for all of the billboards early on in the investigation... or maybe the actual video still was on the billboard. Everything is getting jumbled! In any event, I think that the OBG sketch was based on/influenced by the video.

The case featured on FBI billboards appeared soon after the fact but it didn’t contain a sketch, only the grainy photo. The first sketch was released by LE five months later, on July 17, 2017.

FBI launches digital billboard campaign in search for killer of Delphi teens | Fox 59

 

[Justice101]

following

 

[urbancoyote]

This refusal of releasing any more video of BG....it's doing my head in. What on earth could have happened in the following seconds that makes them think they cant/won't release it? If it was something said, they could simply edit the audio out. What could he visually have done to make them think they cant release it?! Its almost like they dont want to give us more clues.

 

[Jealoushe]

cant believe this is still just going in circles.

Thinking of the girls every day.

 

[Yemelyan]

This refusal of releasing any more video of BG....it's doing my head in. What on earth could have happened in the following seconds that makes them think they cant/won't release it? If it was something said, they could simply edit the audio out. What could he visually have done to make them think they cant release it?! Its almost like they dont want to give us more clues.

Bolded by me...

No, you're right. They don't want to give "us" more clues. They feel that any person who can tell them who is in that video, has enough information from what they've released to be able to do that.

I would also suggest that there isn't as much additional footage as people think. What little there may be, has probably already been heard/watched by the people who could have input on it (such as the families of the victims). In Episode 10 ("Four Years") of the podcast Down the Hill, the reporter who interviewed Leazenby had this conversation with him regarding what else is on the video:

Reporter: Could you release more of the video?

TL: I suppose, and that’s been obviously brought up a number of times throughout the last four years, almost four. I’m not real sure what, from what I know, what advantage it would have at this point. It just - I think people anticipate that there is something, if you will, “earth-shattering” that’s going to jump out at them and “Hey - it’s So and So!”

Reporter: That all of you guys watching it every couple of weeks haven’t noticed yet?

TL: Right. So honestly I don’t think at this point it would make a big huge difference in providing any additional…

Reporter: Is there more audio from him on the tape other than what’s been released?

TL: Not that I am aware of.

Reporter: So, he says “guys, down the hill” and those are the only words spoken by him?

TL: Right.

Reporter: How helpful has that video been?

TL: I know that there are still items within that video that are still being studied and considered. And so, I still think it is a positive, key piece of evidence that will be used in the courtroom. I am confident that we will receive that justice. It’s just that this one, we’ve just had to be real, real detailed with, digging into it, to find out what is the connection here.

This starts at around minute 6:00 of the episode, you can listen to it here: Chapter 10: Four Years - Down The Hill: The Delphi Murders - Omny.fm

 

[ShamelessObserver]

TL makes no sense by saying there’s no more additional audio of BG. Another officer on the case has publicly stated that a conversation takes place between BG and the girls but it isn’t really clear as to what he is saying to them.

he should state there’s no more usable audio....

There’s no way it was........

BG: guys.... down the hill

Girls: silent

BG: Silent

that’s just unbelievable. to me it’s more like....

BG: Guys.... down the hill

Girls: *Respond, probably query why*

BG: *Responds with a powerful gesture or statement, eg shows gun or verbally threatens them whilst showing gun*

Girls: *Respond questioning why he’s doing this*

etc etc. There’s no way that there’s no no further audio of BG or the girls after the ‘down the hill’ line

 

[Yemelyan]

TL makes no sense by saying there’s no more additional audio of BG. Another officer on the case has publicly stated that a conversation takes place between BG and the girls but it isn’t really clear as to what he is saying to them.

he should state there’s no more usable audio....

There’s no way it was........

BG: guys.... down the hill

Girls: silent

BG: Silent

that’s just unbelievable. to me it’s more like....

BG: Guys.... down the hill

Girls: *Respond, probably query why*

BG: *Responds with a powerful gesture or statement, eg shows gun or verbally threatens them whilst showing gun*

Girls: *Respond questioning why he’s doing this*

etc etc. There’s no way that there’s no no further audio of BG or the girls after the ‘down the hill’ line

My reading of his response to the reporter was that there may be additional audio of the girls but there is no more usable audio of the man. I don't think we need to hear more audio of the girls to mine for "clues." I'm sure the families listened to whatever else there was and provided any feedback they could.

 

[gorewhore90]

This refusal of releasing any more video of BG....it's doing my head in. What on earth could have happened in the following seconds that makes them think they cant/won't release it? If it was something said, they could simply edit the audio out. What could he visually have done to make them think they cant release it?! Its almost like they dont want to give us more clues.

Thats what I thought.. Surely they can edit anything of the girls in distress out and put every word he says out there for the public.. If someone thinks they may know who the person is, 4 words might not be enough for them to be sure enough to ring the police and potentially ruin someones life if there wrong..

 

[Boxer]

Thats what I thought.. Surely they can edit anything of the girls in distress out and put every word he says out there for the public.. If someone thinks they may know who the person is, 4 words might not be enough for them to be sure enough to ring the police and potentially ruin someones life if there wrong..

The BG clip is reassembled from a waving camera footage, MOO there isnt any more.

 

[Yemelyan]

Thats what I thought.. Surely they can edit anything of the girls in distress out and put every word he says out there for the public.. If someone thinks they may know who the person is, 4 words might not be enough for them to be sure enough to ring the police and potentially ruin someones life if there wrong..

"Guys....down the hill" are apparently the only words spoken by him, or the only recognizable words anyway.

Here's how we know: from minute 6:00 of episode 10 of Down the Hill. You can listen to it here: Chapter 10: Four Years - Down The Hill: The Delphi Murders - Omny.fm

Reporter: Is there more audio from him on the tape other than what’s been released?

TL: Not that I am aware of.

Reporter: So, he says “guys, down the hill” and those are the only words spoken by him?

TL: Right.

 

[Charlot123]

For the first time, having watched the interview with a (recently released maniacal abductor), I am asking myself if:

1) history might repeat itself
2) that the Delphi case could have been an abduction gone wrong, and
3) in analogy with the case I am following, there was a co-conspirator in Delphi, a woman who could pass for a young man?

Just throwing it in there because everything seems to have been discussed.

 

[sunshineray]

Bolded by me...

No, you're right. They don't want to give "us" more clues. They feel that any person who can tell them who is in that video, has enough information from what they've released to be able to do that.

I would also suggest that there isn't as much additional footage as people think. What little there may be, has probably already been heard/watched by the people who could have input on it (such as the families of the victims). In Episode 10 ("Four Years") of the podcast Down the Hill, the reporter who interviewed Leazenby had this conversation with him regarding what else is on the video:

Reporter: Could you release more of the video?

TL: I suppose, and that’s been obviously brought up a number of times throughout the last four years, almost four. I’m not real sure what, from what I know, what advantage it would have at this point. It just - I think people anticipate that there is something, if you will, “earth-shattering” that’s going to jump out at them and “Hey - it’s So and So!”

Reporter: That all of you guys watching it every couple of weeks haven’t noticed yet?

TL: Right. So honestly I don’t think at this point it would make a big huge difference in providing any additional…

Reporter: Is there more audio from him on the tape other than what’s been released?

TL: Not that I am aware of.

Reporter: So, he says “guys, down the hill” and those are the only words spoken by him?

TL: Right.

Reporter: How helpful has that video been?

TL: I know that there are still items within that video that are still being studied and considered. And so, I still think it is a positive, key piece of evidence that will be used in the courtroom. I am confident that we will receive that justice. It’s just that this one, we’ve just had to be real, real detailed with, digging into it, to find out what is the connection here.

This starts at around minute 6:00 of the episode, you can listen to it here: Chapter 10: Four Years - Down The Hill: The Delphi Murders - Omny.fm

Snipped and BBM...

Reporter: How helpful has that video been?

TL: I know that there are still items within that video that are still being studied and considered. And so, I still think it is a positive, key piece of evidence that will be used in the courtroom. I am confident that we will receive that justice. It’s just that this one, we’ve just had to be real, real detailed with, digging into it, to find out what is the connection here.

When asked how helpful the video has been Sheriff Leazenby says they've had to be real, real detailed digging into it to find the connnection.

What the heck is he saying? What "connection" is going to be revealed by detailed digging into Libby's video?

Anyone? I'm confused by his language in response to a very direct question.

 

[Yemelyan]

Snipped and BBM...

Reporter: How helpful has that video been?

TL: I know that there are still items within that video that are still being studied and considered. And so, I still think it is a positive, key piece of evidence that will be used in the courtroom. I am confident that we will receive that justice. It’s just that this one, we’ve just had to be real, real detailed with, digging into it, to find out what is the connection here.

When asked how helpful the video has been Sheriff Leazenby says they've had to be real, real detailed digging into it to find the connnection.

What the heck is he saying? What "connection" is going to be revealed by detailed digging into Libby's video?

Anyone? I'm confused by his language in response to a very direct question.

JMO but I think the "it" in his last sentence is not the video but "the circumstances of the case."

He switched between answering her direct question ("how helpful is it?" "It's still being studied") to his opinion on the state of the case overall ("I am confident that we will receive that justice.") The context is, the video will help them receive that justice, but the reason this hasn't yet come to pass in "this one" as opposed to other crimes is that they have had to be "real, real detailed" digging into the exact circumstances of the crime.

He said elsewhere around this same time (in the Carroll County Comet Q+A) that the girls were "victims of opportunity," so if that's also true it stands to reason that the connections that would solve the case would be very difficult to discern.

Just my interpretation based on hearing the interchange aloud on the podcast.

 

[gorewhore90]

So ive been thinking about something regarding BG'S voice and why he hasn't been recognised yet..

You know how when you hear your voice on a recording and you think omg do I really sound like that? Maybe that's exactly what's happening here.. Maybe BG'S normal/everyday voice docent sound like it does on the recording? Maybe BG'S family/friends have heard the recording and they don't think it sounds like him at all or maybe they have there suspicions but they aren't 100% sure and they're not willing to wreck there loved one/friends life based on a hunch?

 

[sunshineray]

<modsnip - quoted post removed>
I know exactly what you mean. My voice to my ear sounds nothing like my voice on the answering machine. It could very well be the reason nobody has been identified by the audio Libby recorded.

I stillxwonder if Sheriff Leazenby has ever figured out where he's heard that voice before. He seemed very sure he had.