4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #81

[Nila Aella]

I provided a summary of dates and cited the related Blue Knives warrant in the last thread. Blue Knives dates were the issue.

Let's see if I can maybe do this right this time: I don't think that worked so here's the long version.


I think the knife was allegedly purchased from Amazon in April 2022, is that right? Because then I'm curious about these warrants (always with me and the warrants lol).
One does have to wonder why, if the Amazon warrant produced the knife, (receipt dated 12.14 says Amazon returned information on 12.8)
https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/022823%20Order%20to%20Seal%20and%20Redact%20-%20Amazon.pdf
why then did LE do the warrant to Blue Ridge Knives dated 12.12?
Did LE just not bother to check the Amazon one? They knew about BK at that time? What was PC or were they just 'checking to be sure'?
I thought about the fact that LE may have been following the trail from Amazon to Blue Ridge Knives to see which Amazon seller bought what knives for resale...
https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/022823%20Order%20to%20Seal%20and%20Redact%20-%20Blue%20Ridge%20Knives.pdf
But if that's the case, then why narrow those purchases to these dates:
o On or about 03/08/2022 the purchase of 360 units
o 0n or about 06/24/2022 the purchase of 480 units
(from Blue Ridge warrant above)
March purchase is a pretty tight window to get the order and turn it around and get it to BK - was there no older inventory? Usually inventory is sold FIFOd not LIFOd (first in, first out, last in, last out*), and June comes after April - well after. Supposedly, BK was already in possession by then, so if they're sure about Amazon, why June? And why no warrant to the reseller on Amazon? One would think that's a loose end to be tied up - certainly the end piece of an audit or investigatory trail.
I'm sure there are lots of theories, but there are lots of questions, too.
IMO, targeting that date raises real questions about the veracity of the claim since neither Amazon nor BK can time travel to my knowledge and based on what we know now. One possibility: Maybe the knife purchase isn't as rock solid as the leak said?
*editing to add a footnote for any of the accountants here - I'm speaking actual practice, not inventory accounting method here. No GAAP required

There is also two ebay warrants mixed in. One searching for the knife and sheath, the other listing 13 purchasers. And the Kabar warrant. I also noticed in the Kabar amended search warrant the title was Ebay? Thinking typo? on Page 17 The search warrant wording is mentioning Kabar but the top left says Ebay.

knife warrants:

Amazon Nov 26th (Jan 1-present) Return December 8th

Ebay Nov 26 (Jan 1-present) Return Nov 28th

Ebay Nov 28 for 13 purchasers (Jan 1-present) Return Nov 29

Kabar Nov 29th multiple models of knives and distribution (jan 1 to present) return Dec 2

Blue Ridge Dec 13th known purchase units plus the sheath (Jan 1-present) return December 16

The return dates above are when LE received the information (states in the return): not signing of the return.
MOO

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030723 Order to Seal Redact - KA-BAR Knives Inc.pdf

Idaho Judicial Cases of Interest



MOO

 

[Orange Tabby]

IMO just for the sake of the families and the victims (not to mention his own professionalism) he should have taken 5 mins to read the names and charges before the hearing and if he felt that he had any doubt in pronouncing the name "Kernodle" he should of asked someone closer to the case. He didn't make one mistake with the names he made two...

I think the situation is even worse than you describe. There are four victims, each with a first and last name for a total of eight names. He got three of those wrong!

For those who didn’t watch, every error was made more than once.

Kaylee was twice called Kayla. (And never once correctly named.)

Xana was three times pronounced with a first syllable long A.

Kernodle tripped him up multiple times, literally every time he attempted it.

See this vid: approx 6:34 for Kaylee and 7:12 for Xana.

 

[NuttMegg]

Did you see the OP that owns a similar knife and sheath, some type of batch from Amazon?
They said the closing snap or post is very difficult and they can easily see how DNA got ground far into the leather breaking it in.

At about time stamp 7:00, Scott shows his k-bar, mentioning that all marines receive one due to classic use in WW 2. Also shows the snap.

 

[U.N. Known]

It was on Dateline. Someone in the investigation told them a sister said he had some new behaviors that made her, his sister, suspicious that he was the murderer in Moscow. He had a white Elantra, he was obsessively cleaning it with bleach, and had a new habit of wearing what Dateline reported as "latex" gloves around the house.

Keep in mind that PA investigators are not bound by the gag order, and that there may be a special informant (identity protected) somewhere about. I don't have the link for this last bit of information, so IMO. But we've discussed it here.

Confirmation, from my pov, happens only in a court of law and even then, we each get to regard the witnesses and evidence from our own perches. From WS's point of view, Dateline is MSM.

IMO.

I was just curious. I heard it was from Datelline, but the At this point, I don't consider anything with this case confirmed unless it's double-verified. And that isn't due to the gag order since the source could have been anyone from LE to a friend's neighbor's cousin who goes to the same hair salon with one of BK's sisters.

I'd totally want to be an anonymous source if I had to share information, but in a turnabout of hypocrisy, I don't trust them.

 

[JusMeJim]

FIRST ON CNN: Parents of Idaho student murder suspect have been subpoenaed to testify before Pennsylvania grand jury | CNN

The parents of Bryan Kohberger have been subpoenaed to testify before a Monroe County, Pennsylvania, investigative grand jury, according to a source familiar with the situation.

www.cnn.com

 

[10ofRods]

RBBM
"A small sample found on the snap of a sheath could have been left by a previous owner of the sheath, no way to know."

I may be misinterpreting in some way, but I truly do not understand what you mean here. How do you conclude that the sample found on the snap could have been left by a previous owner and that there is no way to know? Are you talking about the snap button of the sheath found at the crime scene?

All we know at this point is that the dna profile found on the snap button was single source male. That sample was compared with defendant's father's dna, which showed that the DNA on snap button was likely left by male whose father was 99.99998% likely to be BK's father. We have no reason to not believe that BK's actual DNA (swabs taken at arrest) have since been compared to the single source male dna sample on the snap button of the sheath. We have no reason at this point to assume that there are problems with the DNA evidence.MOO

I guess we can speculate about potential problems if so and so was to happen -IDK like some chain of custody problem, some problem with testing techniques that we currently know no details of?, but I see no current basis for assuming that so and so has happenned or is likely to happen. MOO

And I want to add that it's entirely possibly, forensically, to trace that particular sheath to the Ka-Bar facility where it was made and packaged. Indeed, I assume that's how they got from Ka-Bar to Blue Ridge to Amazon, in terms of the search warrants. Heck, the actual cow from whom the leather was made has its DNA on the same sheath (and should it be necessary, could be matched to the gene pool of a particular group of cattle - in Mexico, where the sheaths are made, IMO).

I feel a little discomfort about forcing trials to go this far in trying to ascertain what any reasonable person (IMO) should conclude from there being one and only one person's DNA on the snap of the sheath. If BK's defense could show that he had ANOTHER sheath (from his Amazon purchase), that would go a long way to challenging that evidence. But I suppose it may become necessary to analyze populations of cattle in Mexico, Ka-Bar manufacturing and supply chain processes, etc. It's all worth it, if it results in the conviction of the right person.

IMO. OTOH, if there are receipts for Kohberger buying a Ka-Bar knife of the same stock as the sheath, I think it's game over and that a qualified jury will have no trouble with believing that Kohberger owned a Ka-Bar knife, esp. as his is the only DNA discernible on that use point. I expect the defense to ask for consumptive testing of the leather and to try and use the DNA found in it (which likely won't be single source) to confound the jury on this piece of evidence. I think a good prosecutor will find the right expert to explain this capably.

IMO.

I think the situation is even worse than you describe. There are four victims, each with a first and last name for a total of eight names. He got three of those wrong!

For those who didn’t watch, every error was made more than once.

Kaylee was twice called Kayla. (And never once correctly named.)

Xana was three times pronounced with a first syllable long A.

Kernodle tripped him up multiple times, literally every time he attempted it.

See this vid: approx 6:34 for Kaylee and 7:12 for Xana.

Thank you so much for this summary!

I am going to say that 3J (Judge) cannot read well, ha. Lee and la are plain in terms of how to pronounce! That's really too bad that the Gonçalves's were there and had that happen. My own last name was mispronounced (and misspelled) all through my childhood, it didn't bother me much at the time, but it sure did bother my parents.

Thanks for the time stamps. Of course, Judge might have been rushed, tired, sleepy, lacking coffee, nervous...who knows.

IMO.

 

[Balthazar]

Interesting comments by Mr. Goncalves: Father of slain Idaho student felt 'rage' in courtroom during arraignment of murder suspect Bryan Kohberger | CNN

Body language expert weighs in: Accused Idaho killer Bryan Kohberger’s body language compared to Lee Harvey Oswald

What was most important: Opinion | Bryan Kohberger's lawyers just made a very significant decision

 

[al66pine]

3% of ?

...
I see this as related to his VSS.... also want to say that among this group (lots of people have something going on - maybe 3% of people), there aren't a lot of killers. /QUOTE]
snipped for focus @10ofRods
I know you are a very precise writer.

Is post saying that 3% of people have' VSS?
Or
People in US? World?
People w VSS?

"this group" = who?

 

[Curiousobserver]

IMO. OTOH, if there are receipts for Kohberger buying a Ka-Bar knife of the same stock as the sheath, I think it's game over and that a qualified jury will have no trouble with believing that Kohberger owned a Ka-Bar knife, esp. as his is the only DNA discernible on that use point. I expect the defense to ask for consumptive testing of the leather and to try and use the DNA found in it (which likely won't be single source) to confound the jury on this piece of evidence. I think a good prosecutor will find the right expert to explain this capably.

IMO.

I agree that it is unlikely that you would get a single-sourced CODIS profile from a knife where he was the previous owner.

Consumptive testing would likely find partial DNA profiles that do not match BK. I doubt if you would get a full profile from anyone incidentally handling the knife. A partial profile could go to reasonable doubt but as you said an expert could explain that easily.

MOO- If this were the only thing linking him to the crime then it would be problematic for the case. However, there is a lot more DNA evidence than we have seen so far IMHO. Most people are not sophisticated enough to avoid depositing DNA and this guy seems to have lacked a basic understanding of the forensics of human identification (PhD program aside he seems like a dope).

 

[maskedwoman]

From memory, the return on Amazon warrant was around 7th December or so. But it can be checked for sure at
Idaho Judicial Cases of Interest
and scroll down to Amazon. Return date will be in affdavit by Laurence Mowery (sp?) MOO

Thank you. You guys make me feel like I have a brain like a sieve, LOL. I can't remember these dates at all. I have to check every one of them!

 

[Curiousobserver]

I do not know. However, IMO a suspect's DNA under the fingernails of a murder victim is more telling/convincing/shows more probable cause than DNA on an object that could have been left or placed on the bed by someone else or at a different time. If I planned to use only one of the two pieces of evidence I would go with the evidence under the fingernails.

As for the gloves, I believe that came from the Dateline episode. Even if she said that I do not see its relevance to the murders. Even if he committed the murders why would his wearing gloves inside his home in PA six weeks afterward have any bearing on the case?

Consciousness of guilt, especially if it was a new habit, combined with a fundamental misunderstanding that they didn't need his actual DNA; anyone in that household could identify him.

 

[Swansee]

FIRST ON CNN: Parents of Idaho student murder suspect have been subpoenaed to testify before Pennsylvania grand jury | CNN

The parents of Bryan Kohberger have been subpoenaed to testify before a Monroe County, Pennsylvania, investigative grand jury, according to a source familiar with the situation.

www.cnn.com

I didn't see that one coming!
First thing that comes to mind is could there be an ongoing action against BK in Pennsylvania for destruction of evidence (his garbage disposal antics, cleaning his car)? And his parents would be summoned as witnesses to that?

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

So, you're saying that Kohberger's DNA (on the sheath) was left on it by...him, right? It has to be him. Dabbing tiny amounts of single source DNA onto the use point of an artifact is not something that happens. The dabber would be breathing. THEIR DNA would be mixed in with the other person's DNA (unless they were wearing SCUBA gear or something).

It was just one person's DNA. Partial DNA from the real culprit would be there too, IMO (via their breath).

But the lab says plainly it was single source (one person).

I don't see how Kohberger's DNA could get on the sheath without Kohberger touching it. I assume there's more of his DNA in the leather (but there, we would expect to find bovine DNA as well and perhaps the DNA of a manufacturing worker - although it should be minute at this point and should match the genetic markers from the region of manufacture).

The sample on the sheath clearly belongs to Kohberger, so are you saying that he could be the previous owner of the sheath?

If true, then it's crucial that they have the Amazon records. I find it entirely too large a coincidence that Kohberger was at 1122 King Road both at the time of the murders AND a few hours later, after driving through Lewiston/Clarkston and back to Pullman. I find it too coincidental that his phone goes off just outside of Moscow and then, on the route he took home, it goes back on. Same timeframe.

I doubt there's any DNA under anyone's fingernails. BK was apparently wearing a dark outfit with sleeves, shoes, gloves and a partial face mask. Victims get DNA under their fingers by clutching into the wrists and arms (and sometimes hands) of the knife attacker.

I feel that if someone can argue that the sheath DNA is innocuous, that it is a small step to arguing that fingernail DNA is similarly objectionable (the argument would then become that perhaps BK and a victim were very well known to each other and had a lover's quarrel). But I don't think BK had any scratches, I'll be surprised if he did.

At any rate, single source DNA doesn't get on a sheath belonging to a separate person who breathes, IMO.

I appreciate these discussions & the opportunity to learn!

For me, the single source male DNA on the sheath button is powerful. Is it possible BCK’s DNA got there as a previous owner? Anything is possible.

Is it possible a theoretical “new” owner/murderer managed to handle & use that sheath without leaving any of their DNA? Again, anything is possible, but for me, that feels highly unlikely, MOO.

And when considering all the other known points you reviewed, the theory that BCK’s DNA was left on the sheath as a previous owner doesn’t feel reasonable to me. MOO

Of course, everything has to be presented in court with the defense having a chance to address.

I know this has been addressed in previous threads many times, & I apologize for asking again, but I’d appreciate it if one of our forensic WSers could again explain in general terms what’s involved in separating mixed DNA samples? How difficult/easy it is, how time-consuming or not it is, etc. Please feel free to link to a previous post rather than reinventing the wheel — I’m happy to read what’s already been shared but still haven’t mastered the Search function. TIA!

 

[10ofRods]

Is post saying that 3% of people have' VSS?
Or
People in US? World?
People w VSS?

"this group" = who?

The total population. 3% of the population has a diagnosis that causes symptoms of derealization and depersonalization.

It's probably higher. That's just the major diagnoses (VSS, schizophrenia, DID, DPDR). Estimates for schizophrenics, alone are between 1% and 3% of the human population. Most epidemiologists put it at around 1-2% for the Western cultures, some say 3% just for schizophrenia. Some studies say 1-2% for DID (i think it's closer to 1%). VSS is less than 1% (according to the research over time). DPDR is just under 2%. And that's not an exhaustive list. Nor are all these disorders chronic; some are intermittent, but I'm speaking of the percentage of the world's population who has the symptoms of depersonalization and derealization, because I believe many murderers and other violent offenders are in this state when they commit their crimes.

Roughly 200,000 Americans experience an episode of this on any given day. Stress and anxiety can trigger it. Some people find it so common in their lives, that it becomes ego syntonic (they view it as the normal state of affairs). Many, however, upon coming out of this state are alarmed and surprised (ego dystonic) at their own behavior.

Some researchers think that about half of Americans have had at least 1-2 episodes of this (often after a shocking or extremely startling event).

It is also associated with depression. But I mention it here because it is generally considered to be part of VSS.

Derealization has been described as viewing oneself and events around oneself as if in a movie, sometimes as if outside one's own body, but not necessarily. It can lead to a person speaking about themselves in the third person, or "narrating" events to themselves as they occur. Some sufferers believe they are in a dream.

IME and from my research.

 

[SpiderFalcon]

I didn't see that one coming!
First thing that comes to mind is could there be an ongoing action against BK in Pennsylvania for destruction of evidence (his garbage disposal antics, cleaning his car)? And his parents would be summoned as witnesses to that?

The first thing I thought of was those ID cards in a glove in a box. Dateline said they weren't connected to the Idaho victims, so maybe it's someone in PA that they belonged to.

Edited to add: What if they were public school children's id cards? He did work in the Public School System as a security guard. IMO, MOO

 

[BUF]

I didn't see that one coming!
First thing that comes to mind is could there be an ongoing action against BK in Pennsylvania for destruction of evidence (his garbage disposal antics, cleaning his car)? And his parents would be summoned as witnesses to that?

IDK…that or something else that occurred in PA?…

By law, a Monroe County grand jury can only review potential crimes that occurred within Monroe County, Pennsylvania. It is unclear what potential crime they are investigating.

FIRST ON CNN: Parents of Idaho student murder suspect have been subpoenaed to testify before Pennsylvania grand jury | CNN

The parents of Bryan Kohberger have been subpoenaed to testify before a Monroe County, Pennsylvania, investigative grand jury, according to a source familiar with the situation.

www.cnn.com

 

[arielilane]

Kaylee Goncalves' father said that he is focused on ensuring justice is served for his daughter and the other three victims.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1661447124100304904

Victim's Father Describes Emotions During Bryan Kohberger's Arraignment

Kaylee Goncalves' father said that he is focused on ensuring justice is served for his daughter and the other three victims.

www.courttv.com

 

[Idaho transplant]

FIRST ON CNN: Parents of Idaho student murder suspect have been subpoenaed to testify before Pennsylvania grand jury | CNN

The parents of Bryan Kohberger have been subpoenaed to testify before a Monroe County, Pennsylvania, investigative grand jury, according to a source familiar with the situation.

www.cnn.com

WOW! Thanks for reporting this!! I was struck by the part about....'they can only be subpoenaed about crimes that happened in Pennsylvania'.......

Destruction of evidence makes sense.......

If the daughter/sister did make the comment about Kohberger wearing latex gloves after he returned home, maybe that opened a Pandora's box.

 

[Swansee]

IDK…that or something else that occurred in PA?…

By law, a Monroe County grand jury can only review potential crimes that occurred within Monroe County, Pennsylvania. It is unclear what potential crime they are investigating.

The first thing I thought of was those ID cards in a glove in a box. Dateline said they weren't connected to the Idaho victims, so maybe it's someone in PA that they belonged to.

Yes, I agree it could be something else, but would his parents be considered witnesses? Whereas they could be considered as direct witnesses to him cleaning his car in December and throwing things out in the neighbors' garbage bin etc...
I shudder at the thought of this being related to the ID cards and what that might imply.

 

[SpiderFalcon]

The first thing I thought of was those ID cards in a glove in a box. Dateline said they weren't connected to the Idaho victims, so maybe it's someone in PA that they belonged to.

Edited to add: What if they were public school children's id cards? He did work in the Public School System as a security guard. IMO, MOO

@Swansee said: Yes, I agree it could be something else, but would his parents be considered witnesses? Whereas they could be considered as direct witnesses to him cleaning his car in December and throwing things out in the neighbors' garbage bin etc...
I shudder at the thought of this being related to the ID cards and what that might imply.

UGHHHHH. I wish I hadn't had that thought. He lived with his parents in PA, so they would be considered witnesses, I think.