4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #81

[Swansee]

Like many of you I was also paying close attention to BK's reactions to the names read. But my interpretation is different from what has been suggested above. I think, when Kaylee's name was mispronounced, he was clenching his jaw in annoyance (like many of us were!). When the judge then ALSO mispronounced Xana's name I think he may have been holding back even more aggravation (again, like most of us!).
Unlike us, I don't think he cared about the mispronounced names out of any empathy for the victims. I just think BK is an OCD perfectionist who was getting very annoyed and impatient at the judge's verbal fumbles.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Also, the fact BK wore gloves in his parents home tells me he was def not going back to Washington. Those traffic stops spooked him.

I totally agree. His model Elantra, 2 stops within 10 minutes of one another, and the sheath left behind, he had to know they were closing in.

He was a Criminal Justice Doctorate student after all. Hah

MOO

 

[schooling]

I went back and listened to the part on Dateline about the knife and Amazon and Dateline said the knife was purchased a month before BK's trip to WA. They do not say when LE was aware of the purchase so it may have been known before the PCA but more than likely LE was not aware of the purchase at the time of the PCA. JMO

I take one look at the warrants and dates of return and I see Amazon returning sales info. And what looks like LE tracing that purchase all the way back to the manufacturer (KaBar) -> to a shipment to a distributor (Blue Ridge) and to specific batches sent to a retailer (likely back to Amazon).

So even if we were to assume Amazon came back empty the first time around (maybe he used a different name)…I think after the very specific Blue Ridge warrant (likely informed by Kabar) they knew where BK bought the sheath and/or knife. According to Dateline that was Amazon.

I’m using the warrants and the timeline they support to come to that conclusion. MOO

I’ve reread what you said and watched the clip on Dateline a few times now. I’m still not clear why it led you to “more than likely not”. Or was it another piece of evidence or part the timeline. Could you explain?

 

[girlhasnoname]

Now I understand the 'potential lawsuit' a little better:

<snipped>
The families of two of the victims in the University of Idaho killings last fall have filed notice reserving their right to sue the city of Moscow, according to documents filed with the city.

The families of slain students Kaylee Goncalves, 21, and Madison Mogen, 21, may seek damages against the city for the murders of their daughters, according to the notices, which were dated May 3 and May 11, respectively, and were obtained by ABC News.

The notices do not specify what kind of claim the families may make. They say that potential dollar figures for damages are "undetermined at this time."

No lawsuit has yet been filed, but the claims protect the families' rights to sue within two years, Shanon Gray, an attorney representing the Goncalves and Mogen families, told ABC News.

Idaho college murders: 2 slain students' families reserve right to sue Moscow, documents say

 

[Justice101]

Just a thought on a poster's previous comment.

If they find the victim's blood splattered on the underside of the sheath, then that means the sheath was there only after the first of the victim stabbing wounds had started to bleed.

 

[Nila Aella]

Yes, I know that they are on the motions - but are they Prosecution or Defense? The only defense lawyer whose name I can remember is AT. I assume the other two are those lawyers? I want to start memorizing, at this point.

I can't even remember the prosecutor's name at this point in time, there's been so little coverage.

IMO.

Attorney list:

Prosecution team:
William Wofford Thompson,Jr Prosecutor
Ashley Jennings Senior Deputy Prosecutor
Jeffery D. Nye Deputy Attorney General
Ingrid C. Batey Deputy Attorney General

Defense Team:
Anne C. Taylor Chief Public Defender
Jay W. Logsdon Chief Deputy of Litigation
Elisa G. Massoth Criminal Defense Attorney

Goncalves Family Attorney
Shanon L. Gray

Three Unknowns from Zoom hearing (gag order):
Counsel and Co counsel for ?
Counsel for ?

Press Attorneys:
Wendy J. Olson
Cory M. Carone

Please add to the list if I missed someone.
MOO

 

[Tealgrove]

Now I understand the 'potential lawsuit' a little better:

<snipped>
The families of two of the victims in the University of Idaho killings last fall have filed notice reserving their right to sue the city of Moscow, according to documents filed with the city.

The families of slain students Kaylee Goncalves, 21, and Madison Mogen, 21, may seek damages against the city for the murders of their daughters, according to the notices, which were dated May 3 and May 11, respectively, and were obtained by ABC News.

The notices do not specify what kind of claim the families may make. They say that potential dollar figures for damages are "undetermined at this time."

No lawsuit has yet been filed, but the claims protect the families' rights to sue within two years, Shanon Gray, an attorney representing the Goncalves and Mogen families, told ABC News.

Idaho college murders: 2 slain students' families reserve right to sue Moscow, documents say

Why would the families want to sue the City?
I’m not understanding this at all.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

Attorney list:

Prosecution team:
William Wofford Thompson,Jr Prosecutor
Ashley Jennings Senior Deputy Prosecutor
Jeffery D. Nye Deputy Attorney General
Ingrid C. Batey Deputy Attorney General

Defense Team:
Anne C. Taylor Chief Public Defender
Jay W. Logsdon Chief Deputy of Litigation
Elisa G. Massoth Criminal Defense Attorney

Goncalves Family Attorney
Shanon L. Gray

Three Unknowns from Zoom hearing (gag order):
Counsel and Co counsel for ?
Counsel for ?

Press Attorneys:
Wendy J. Olson
Cory M. Carone

Please add to the list if I missed someone.
MOO

And as an added bonus, both press attys are Stoel Rives, which is how I'd refer to them - "Stoel said..." so that could also be seen and add to the confusion.

 

[Montecore1]

Watched the charges being read to BK closely, <modsnip> BK seems to have more of a reaction to XK’s name being read than any other of the victims. Just an observation but I know it’s been thrown around a lot that the targets were either MM or KG. What if it was XK? Or does he have this reaction bc XK and EC ruined his original plan? Thoughts?

^^^I think it maybe have just been BCK's reaction the the judge just completely destroying her last name several times, have you heard the judge stumble and never did get her name correct? It was pathetic MOO
He also got KG's name wrong, I believe he called her Kayla.Its like he had never seen these names before or read them.
I would assume everyone in the court room had some uncontrollable and natural negative reaction to that.
IMO there was no excuse for that and it was very unprofessional and disrespectful to the victims and the families. IMO Judge Judge should be ashamed of himself

I agree. If he is executed, I think his brain should go to research—too many serials and mass murderers in the US. What is different with them? Is there something that can be done to predict/prevent this? Just killing people at random is so far from the norm that I just don’t understand. JMO

I'd like to know more too! But in the US I don't think executed prisoners can be forced to "donate" their bodies to science. (And I personally doubt we'd find answers in brain structure anyway.) Prisoners-- even those on death row for whom execution is likely imminent can't be forced to participate in experiments to gain knowledge. They can't even "volunteer" for otherwise unethical experiments (assuming a prisoner can ever really volunteer.)

^^^ I have often wondered if this could be done as well. Maybe there is some defect or scientific explanation like CTE in football players

Like many of you I was also paying close attention to BK's reactions to the names read. But my interpretation is different from what has been suggested above. I think, when Kaylee's name was mispronounced, he was clenching his jaw in annoyance (like many of us were!). When the judge then ALSO mispronounced Xana's name I think he may have been holding back even more aggravation (again, like most of us!).

^^^ Bingo, see above

 

[Justice101]

^^^I think it maybe have just been BCK's reaction the the judge just completely destroying her last name several times, have you heard the judge stumble and never did get her name correct? It was pathetic MOO
He also got KG's name wrong, I believe he called her Kayla.Its like he had never seen these names before or read them.
I would assume everyone in the court room had some uncontrollable and natural negative reaction to that.
IMO there was no excuse for that and it was very unprofessional and disrespectful to the victims and the families. IMO Judge Judge should be ashamed of himself


^^^ I have often wondered if this could be done as well. Maybe there is some defect or scientific explanation like CTE in football players

^^^ Bingo, see above

In defense of the judge with misprouncing names, you do realize that the judge has hundreds of cases before her.. she has seen misspelled and hard to pronounce names constantly...We are the oddballs living and reading this stuff day in and day out. There are 10 versions of Kaylee, Kayla, Kaylee, Kayleigh, Karyla, Khaley, Khalee.... You and I know how to say and spell everyone of the 4 because we have seen it 20 times a day for 3 months.

Maybe cut her a little slack. And she probably won't make that mistake again.

 

[PrairieWind]

I respectfully disagree that DNA evidence would be mentioned in the PCA or therefore it doesn’t exist.

A probable cause affidavit is written with just enough evidence to convince a Judge that there is probable cause to issue an arrest warrant.

The Prosecution doesn’t provide every bit of evidence they have at that time.

jmo

If there was DNA under a girl's fingernails, that would be the DNA used in the PCA. A small sample found on the snap of a sheath could have been left by a previous owner of the sheath, no way to know. If there was also DNA under a victim's fingernails, that would almost certainly be related to the attack and THAT would be the DNA they used. I would be interested to know if the judge that signed the arrest warrant questioned the officers on the items in the affidavit.

 

[jepop]

Why did BK stand "mute"/"silent" in his arraignment. Courtesy of @wary's post on previous thread I'm really wondering if the answer is this?

4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, 2022 #80

An Alford plea is a guilty plea, but without admitting guilty (no confession, no signed statement of guilt, etc). At least, that's what my research tells me. The Judge has to say that there was enough evidence to convict, but the defendant still maintains their innocence. So it's a "I'm going to...

www.websleuths.com

Texas:
“Mute” plea: In Texas, you may “stand mute” instead of making a plea. The court will then enter a plea of not guilty. By standing mute, you avoid silently admitting to the correctness of the proceedings against you until that point. You are then free to attack all previous proceedings that may have been irregular."

Arraignment - Barfield Law Firm

Once criminal charges are filed, you’ll make a court appearance known as an “arraignment.” If you are incarcerated, this will […]

www.barfieldlawfirm.net

After I read @wary's post I googled "standing mute" and came up with these links to law firms from three other US States:

Pennsylvania:
“Mute” plea: In Pennsylvania, you may “stand mute” instead of making a plea. The court will then enter a plea of not guilty. By standing mute, you avoid silently admitting to the correctness of the proceedings against you until that point. You are then free to attack all previous proceedings that may have been irregular."

Criminal Process Article - Fisher & Fisher Law Offices

The criminal process can be complex and confusing. But it's important to know your legal rights. The best way to be informed is to contact an attorney in

www.pocono-lawyers.com

Michigan:
Stand Mute” plea: In Michigan, you may “stand mute” instead of making a plea. The court will then enter a plea of not guilty on your behalf. By standing mute, you avoid silently admitting to the correctness of the proceedings against you until that point. You are then free to attack all previous proceedings that may have been irregular. Standing mute is treated procedurally the same as entering a plea of not guilty.

Defense Lawyers Michigan - Criminal Defense Attorney Michigan

Criminal Defense Attorney Michigan. The attorneys at are all experienced criminal defense attorneys that are in court defending clients against criminal prosecution on misdemeanor and felony offenses every day. Quite simply, criminal defense is the backbone of our law firm, and we have built our...

www.alllegalmatters.com

New York
“Mute” plea: In New York, you may “stand mute” instead of making a plea. The court will then enter a plea of not guilty. By standing mute, you avoid silently admitting to the correctness of the proceedings against you until that point. You are then free to attack all previous proceedings that may have been irregular."

Unionville Criminal Defense Lawyer • Unionville Criminal Defense Attorney, Unionville Criminal Defense Litigation New York

Unionville Criminal Defense Lawyer. Unionville Criminal Defense Attorney. Giordano Law Unionville Criminal Defense Litigation Firm. Speak With An Experienced Criminal Defense Lawyer in Unionville New York.<br />

www.westchestercountynylaw.com

I haven't found similar for Idaho yet, but am looking. Any legal eagles know if I am on the right track? Is there a reason why similar to above would not apply in Idaho?

MOO

 

[jepop]

In defense of the judge with misprouncing names, you do realize that the judge has hundreds of cases before her.. she has seen misspelled and hard to pronounce names constantly...We are the oddballs living and reading this stuff day in and day out. There are 10 versions of Kaylee, Kayla, Kaylee, Kayleigh, Karyla, Khaley, Khalee.... You and I know how to say and spell everyone of the 4 because we have seen it 20 times a day for 3 months.

Maybe cut her a little slack. And she probably won't make that mistake again.

Just one thing incase you didn't realise. The Judge is male. Judge John Judge.

ETA: I agree pretty much with you. It was an unfortunate mistake, but I'm sure it won't be repeated. I'm sure Judge John Judge is a good Judge, at least this mistake doesn't make him a bad judge or mean he is an insensitive Judge. MOO

 

[jepop]

If I recall correctly, Dateline said that their source said that BK purchased the knife from Amazon in April, before he traveled to Washington state.

Here is the search warrant issued to Amazon.

Of course we don’t know the return on it or if LE had the results at the time they wrote the PCA. JMO

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/022823%20Order%20to%20Seal%20and%20Redact%20-%20Amazon.pdf

View attachment 424247View attachment 424248View attachment 424249View attachment 424250

RBBM: In most of the warrants that were not totally sealed but redacted, the return dates are there, including this one I believe. I haven't checked but from a post down thread I think it was returned some time in the first week of December. MOO

ETA: Bolding in OP post

 

[10ofRods]

In defense of the judge with misprouncing names, you do realize that the judge has hundreds of cases before her.. she has seen misspelled and hard to pronounce names constantly...We are the oddballs living and reading this stuff day in and day out. There are 10 versions of Kaylee, Kayla, Kaylee, Kayleigh, Karyla, Khaley, Khalee.... You and I know how to say and spell everyone of the 4 because we have seen it 20 times a day for 3 months.

Maybe cut her a little slack. And she probably won't make that mistake again.

Judge John Judge is a man, just for the record. To me, there's only one way to pronounced Kaylee. One would think that the Judge had heard at least one news report about these murders. The press manages to pronounced them correctly. There's only one version of Kaylee in this case and it's not an unusual spelling like Khaley or Khalee (which I've never seen before and would have pronounced Kah-lee, most likely).

Xana: I get the mispronunciation. I would have supposed that Judge Judge had conversations off the record with both sets of attorneys and had opportunities to view some of the MSM coverage he's about to rule upon in the media motion. Did he pronounce it Zay-nuh?

We shall see if he corrects himself. One of the attorneys in the Letecia Stauch case had consistently trouble in the first week of trial with both parts of her name, and he was her own attorney.

IMO.

 

[Orange Tabby]

In defense of the judge with misprouncing names, you do realize that the judge has hundreds of cases before her.. she has seen misspelled and hard to pronounce names constantly..

1. Magistrate Megan Marshall (3M) no longer has the case. Judge John Judge (3J) is now presiding.

2. I urge you to watch the arraignment. 3J was so utterly unprepared to say the names that at one point he expressed pity for himself, saying “this is hard” while mangling Xana’s name. I actually wondered if the family felt he butchered it. A really horrible look, even though everyone realizes it was not intentional.

3. During live commentary on the arraignment, legal YouTuber Emily D. Baker said it was common practice while she was an assistant DA in Los Angeles, for the judge to ask the clerk or the prosecutor in advance for correct pronunciation if the names were unusual.

 

[jepop]

If there was DNA under a girl's fingernails, that would be the DNA used in the PCA. A small sample found on the snap of a sheath could have been left by a previous owner of the sheath, no way to know. If there was also DNA under a victim's fingernails, that would almost certainly be related to the attack and THAT would be the DNA they used. I would be interested to know if the judge that signed the arrest warrant questioned the officers on the items in the affidavit.

RBBM
"A small sample found on the snap of a sheath could have been left by a previous owner of the sheath, no way to know."

I may be misinterpreting in some way, but I truly do not understand what you mean here. How do you conclude that the sample found on the snap could have been left by a previous owner and that there is no way to know? Are you talking about the snap button of the sheath found at the crime scene?

All we know at this point is that the dna profile found on the snap button was single source male. That sample was compared with defendant's father's dna, which showed that the DNA on snap button was likely left by male whose father was 99.99998% likely to be BK's father. We have no reason to not believe that BK's actual DNA (swabs taken at arrest) have since been compared to the single source male dna sample on the snap button of the sheath. We have no reason at this point to assume that there are problems with the DNA evidence.MOO

I guess we can speculate about potential problems if so and so was to happen -IDK like some chain of custody problem, some problem with testing techniques that we currently know no details of?, but I see no current basis for assuming that so and so has happenned or is likely to happen. MOO

 

[NuttMegg]

MOO: Courts are going to have to establish guidelines for summaries of evidence records. The sheer volume of data consequence of tracking processes and data dumps from the web and the cloud as well as cell phones, GPS locators, smart watches, laptops and similar by LE yields huge volumes of data that cannot possibly be presented cogently and succinctly to a jury. Trials have seen summaries presented, hashed and rehashed but the inclusions in the summaries were the selection and collation by peripheral legal types as well as paid consultants and virtually all on behalf of the prosecution and subject to considerable challenge in terms of their validity.

More importantly to the legal process, the impartiality of those preparers is readily challenged.....particularly in terms of what else was in those data dumps that could be considered exculpatory. A well heeled defendant could finance the parse and presentation of that same data for his defense, but that delivers judicial leniency to the rich. Flip the columns around and no one would ever know they were sourced from the same data strings unless they were told...

Also the organization of those summaries varied from trial to trial: Some were time driven, some were person driven, some were account driven; depending on the critical elements of the case.

There's going to be a lot of that in this trial. So far, IIRC: over 10000 photographs and 54 terabytes of data? Are those in fact overlapping? And what proportion of it is in fact simply another data dump?

A little off topic; it will be interesting to see how this plays out. All IMHO.

Thanks for your even-keeled explanations of the law.

 

[schooling]

Judge John Judge is a man, just for the record. To me, there's only one way to pronounced Kaylee. One would think that the Judge had heard at least one news report about these murders. The press manages to pronounced them correctly. There's only one version of Kaylee in this case and it's not an unusual spelling like Khaley or Khalee (which I've never seen before and would have pronounced Kah-lee, most likely).

Xana: I get the mispronunciation. I would have supposed that Judge Judge had conversations off the record with both sets of attorneys and had opportunities to view some of the MSM coverage he's about to rule upon in the media motion. Did he pronounce it Zay-nuh?

We shall see if he corrects himself. One of the attorneys in the Letecia Stauch case had consistently trouble in the first week of trial with both parts of her name, and he was her own attorney.

IMO.

I have a hard to pronounce name which provided for a pretty brutal (by elementary and middle school standards) first 14 or so years of my life. I'll always fondly remember and be thankful to the teachers who actually took the time to get it right before riffing off 2 to 3 ridiculous embarrassing pronunciations in a row before I, now in a cold sweat, interrupted the laughs to correct them.

Because of that, anytime I know I'm going to be in a meeting with someone, presenting something to someone, or simply reading someone's name off of a piece of paper I'll carefully review each and every one. First and Last.

If there are any names I don't immediately get I'll quickly search for it on Youtube. Since Kaylee is probably one of those names I wouldn't have looked up (the pronunciation looks pretty clear to me) it seems like Judge Judge resorted to recall (of the word) instead of actual pronunciation. Which is pretty low effort IMO. Regardless of how large his workload is. PARTICULARLY in murder/gross negligence and other life loss/bodily harm cases.

 

[MassGuy]

I have a hard to pronounce name which provided for a pretty brutal (by elementary and middle school standards) first 14 or so years of my life. I'll always fondly remember and be thankful to the teachers who actually took the time to get it right before riffing off 2 to 3 ridiculous embarrassing pronunciations in a row before I, now in a cold sweat, interrupted the laughs to correct them.

Because of that anytime I know I'm going to be in a meeting with someone, presenting something to someone, or simply reading someone's name off of a piece of paper I'll carefully review each and every one. First and Last.

If there are any names I don't immediately get I'll quickly search for it on Youtube. Since Kaylee is probably one of those names I wouldn't have looked up (the pronunciation looks pretty clear to me) it seems like Judge Judge resorted to recall (of the word) instead of actual pronunciation. Which is pretty low effort IMO. Regardless of how large his workload is. PARTICULARLY in murder/gross negligence and other life loss/bodily harm cases.

I do agree with you. This becomes more important later, as at this point, it’s all about protocol. At trial it’s all about the families.

But it’s a big trial, and get it right. Even if it wasn’t a big trial, get it right.