Australia Australia - Marion Barter - Missing After Trip to UK - June 1997 #19

[brjakj]

I'm sorry I said anything now

Don’t be sorry - we all have our own ideas about this case.

Rb said that mb said she wanted to escape her family. I wish they asked more about the context that this was said. Was it before her trip? Or was it after he had scammed her of everything and like you say Toots she was too embarrassed and ashamed to go back?

These words really mean nothing without context!

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Don’t be sorry - we all have our own ideas about this case.

Rb said that mb said she wanted to escape her family. I wish they asked more about the context that this was said. Was it before her trip? Or was it after he had scammed her of everything and like you say Toots she was too embarrassed and ashamed to go back?

These words really mean nothing without context!

Nothing RB says is real or true so if he said that it could be a) complete fabrication; b) something *he* was telling her she should do - escape her family;

We know he has a pattern of asking his targets to keep secrets from their loved ones. We know Marion was acting out of character and seemed under duress before she even left, during the packing up in Australia phase.

I suspect maybe the reason investigators don't press RB on this type of detail is because it's redundant as his word means nothing.

At best they could have asked him, 'on what occasions did she say this?' and 'where were you at the time?', 'did she tell anyone else this?', in order to try and catch him out on timelines or locations etc.

I'm still laughing that he told GDD he was ending their relationship as she was noisy when she drinks.

 

[Mjjj14]

If she killed herself where are her possessions, money and official paperwork? Not to mention her body...

There are approx 750 unidentified human remains in Australia and about 2500 long term missing people. It’s entirely possible Marion’s body is among these bodies, hopefully with the new DNA testing program for these remains started in 2020 these remains will one day be identified.

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

@TootsieFootsie To your point about suicide. . . . from all the podcasts and true crime reading I've done, one point is made repeatedly about disappeared women reputed to have committed suicide. It is extremely rare for a suicide to go undiscovered. It does happen (that fraud woman in Australia??) but when you think about a person killing themselves you have to remember that they have to get to wherever they've planned to do it from wherever they've been living etc. To leave no trace whatsoever either at the death site or where you've been prior to the act is very difficult. Otherwise I agree with you about Marion's state of mind. (@Mjjj14 above answered the other possible suicide scenario.)

 

[Belleandsebastian]

I think Marian knew too much. Maybe she found out his real address or contact details. She was going to cause too much trouble. She was smart.

 

[Mjjj14]

Also in respect to pensions in Australia I think some people from overseas may have a different idea of what that means. I just wanted to clarify incase anyone is wondering.

A pension is a fortnightly sum of money paid to an individual from the government. It’s a fixed sum per fortnight that is income and asset tested. There are several types of pensions such as the age pension (you currently need to be 65 to access this not sure what it was in 97). Currently aged pensioners receiving the full amount get around $1,000 per fortnight. You can’t withdraw from this sum outside of small loans on an infrequent basis and it’s not a pool you can access to buy assets.

Superannuation is a mandatory payment made by your employer (a portion of your income) into a fund on your behalf. You can also make voluntary contributions yourself. You can receive super as a lump sum at retirement. However it was only made mandatory in 1992. The inquest and podcast has discussed how much Marion had in super but I can’t recall the number off the top of my head.

 

[ruby925]

If IMO Marion came back to Australia to tie up loose ends (ie drain her bank accounts in MB name and give the cash to RB) and if her valuables in tea chests were 'stored' by RB (according to RB, Marion came and picked up the tea chests with the pilot) then IMO, they are both reasons why MB had to disappear when she realised she had been defrauded. Her legal name of FNMR could be traced back to RB in Australia (via the FNR license) and she may have been able to find out RB's home address from the tea chest delivery people. As RB has always been adamant that he did not commit any crimes in Australia, one or both of these things could have brought down his house of cards in his safe bolthole of Australia..and maybe also his marriage/family life there. It seemed clear IMO that RB's wife did not want to live in Europe (apart from English-speaking UK). Did any of the inquest witnesses know RB's home address? As far as is known, none of the other witnesses changed their name..lesson learnt?
All MOO obviously, just frustrated to think Marion may not get justice.

 

[gymtonic]

Stepping outside of any personality judgements for a moment, a lot was made of “patterns” in the inquest. Patterns of behaviour that amounted to more than coincidences. Patterns that were reported by multiple, previously unconnected women.

IMO one of the patterns is the reported separation, geographically of AKA’s alleged romance scamming final end point from his home base/ nest and I liken this to the old adage about “it’s an Ill bird that fouls its own nest”. This constantly brings me back to question whether MB made it home from Europe (or another ”dream” location other than Australia!). The theme running through the other women’s accounts were that they were left stranded, or just left and AKA ran away home [i.e. didn’t “@#$&” in his own nest]. In his own words…why would I tel them I was leaving?

Why then would MB be a different pattern and end up located so close to his nest and withdrawing the money from her account in BB?* It all seems too close to AKA’s home base and safe place IMO. As a pattern it doesn’t fit IMO. Sure JO was from the same area but she was still abandoned a whole world away in the UK. Others from Europe were again left or walked out on again where they were located, the other side of the world, or in a third location (Bali) but still geographically distant from the nest.

I know that people have previously said that AKA was still trying to get the money and because of the name change issue persuaded MB to return and get it. But would he? Isn’t another one of the patterns that if it all gets too difficult he abandons his plans, runs away, takes stock and tries again? He seems to have no difficulty finding another victim. IMO He believed (believes) that he can keep trying with new victims, as long as he doesn’t “foul his own nest”.

All JMO of course but based on “patterns” highlighted at the inquest. And unfortunately doesn’t lead me any further down the track of what happened to MB.

EDIT
* others have put forward that she may have discovered his home base and followed him, but if so why is she continuing to withdraw cash in small amounts On consecutive days? It’s her account she can make other arrangements ? why seemingly continue to keep up the secrecy once she has discovered the ruse? It’s like having 2 bob each way. She’s discovers the ruse AND YET she is still being influenced in how to withdraw cash to not raise red flags? It doesn’t fit the pattern IMO

 

[gymtonic]

Stepping outside of any personality judgements for a moment, a lot was made of “patterns” in the inquest. Patterns of behaviour that amounted to more than coincidences. Patterns that were reported by multiple, previously unconnected women.

IMO one of the patterns is the reported separation, geographically of AKA’s alleged romance scamming final end point from his home base/ nest and I liken this to the old adage about “it’s an Ill bird that fouls its own nest”. This constantly brings me back to question whether MB made it home from Europe (or another ”dream” location other than Australia!). The theme running through the other women’s accounts were that they were left stranded, or just left and AKA ran away home [i.e. didn’t “@#$&” in his own nest]. In his own words…why would I tel them I was leaving?

Why then would MB be a different pattern and end up located so close to his nest and withdrawing the money from her account in BB?* It all seems too close to AKA’s home base and safe place IMO. As a pattern it doesn’t fit IMO. Sure JO was from the same area but she was still abandoned a whole world away in the UK. Others from Europe were again left or walked out on again where they were located, the other side of the world, or in a third location (Bali) but still geographically distant from the nest.

I know that people have previously said that AKA was still trying to get the money and because of the name change issue persuaded MB to return and get it. But would he? Isn’t another one of the patterns that if it all gets too difficult he abandons his plans, runs away, takes stock and tries again? He seems to have no difficulty finding another victim. IMO He believed (believes) that he can keep trying with new victims, as long as he doesn’t “foul his own nest”.

All JMO of course but based on “patterns” highlighted at the inquest. And unfortunately doesn’t lead me any further down the track of what happened to MB.

EDIT
* others have put forward that she may have discovered his home base and followed him, but if so why is she continuing to withdraw cash in small amounts On consecutive days? It’s her account she can make other arrangements ? why seemingly continue to keep up the secrecy once she has discovered the ruse? It’s like having 2 bob each way. She’s discovers the ruse AND YET she is still being influenced in how to withdraw cash to not raise red flags? It doesn’t fit the pattern IMO

To extend this more into speculation that does fit the pattern (and evidence?) though:

AKA abandons MB somewhere in Europe (or another “dream” location). MB is unaware because he has provided a reason for a temporary separation (meeting, business…take your pick!) = PATTERN

MB continues her trip solo, pottering around…unaware. Sends postcards, makes phone call to SL. = EVIDENCE. Something happens to MB in Europe (or other dream location not Oz).

BUT conflicting EVIDENCE shows MB’s passport returning and cash being withdrawn from her account and visiting optometrist in Grafton. All seemingly provides “proof of life” of MB back in Australia. A Smoke and mirrors trick in other words And made possible if the POI is a known document falsifier, fraud and immigration dodger and has the capacity to cover his travel tracks (at the time!). Plus, he is aware (and no one else apart from MB is) of MB’s name change and thus provides another diversionary advantage for him. Should MB be reporting missing at the time and LE go looking for her in the UK, she has been travelling as FNMR. If they look for her in Oz, they can see proof of life as MB. Smoke and Mirrors!

 

[CuriousKat99]

I'm sorry I said anything now

Sorry you took it that way. IMO your post is just what this case needs. You’ve sparked a vigorous debate. It’s really important to explore all possibilities, even the less likely ones. After all, assumptions about Marion by authorities in the beginning with nobody prepared to consider other small possibilities stood in the way of getting this case solved in the early days. So thank you for your post and hopefully you will keep on coming up with these ideas. I enjoy your contributions.

 

[gymtonic]

Nothing RB says is real or true so if he said that it could be a) complete fabrication; b) something *he* was telling her she should do - escape her family;

We know he has a pattern of asking his targets to keep secrets from their loved ones. We know Marion was acting out of character and seemed under duress before she even left, during the packing up in Australia phase.

I suspect maybe the reason investigators don't press RB on this type of detail is because it's redundant as his word means nothing.

At best they could have asked him, 'on what occasions did she say this?' and 'where were you at the time?', 'did she tell anyone else this?', in order to try and catch him out on timelines or locations etc.

I'm still laughing that he told GDD he was ending their relationship as she was noisy when she drinks.

And of course there is the matter of pushing the point that the content of podcasts (that he says he hasn’t followed and yet knows the number of downloads and other details at other times) and past inquest statements ( that he now says he can’t remember except when to remember provides useful defence) appear to have been woven into AKA’s story at a later date. I know what conclusions I am led to by this!

 

[TootsieFootsie]

A friend who knows I'm following this case says that now that the Coroner has gone off to "deliberate her verdict", it should be "known pretty soon"

I had to tell him that it doesn't work the same way as a jury.

It might be months before the Coroner delivers her findings.

 

[CuriousKat99]

@TootsieFootsie To your point about suicide. . . . from all the podcasts and true crime reading I've done, one point is made repeatedly about disappeared women reputed to have committed suicide. It is extremely rare for a suicide to go undiscovered. It does happen (that fraud woman in Australia??) but when you think about a person killing themselves you have to remember that they have to get to wherever they've planned to do it from wherever they've been living etc. To leave no trace whatsoever either at the death site or where you've been prior to the act is very difficult. Otherwise I agree with you about Marion's state of mind. (@Mjjj14 above answered the other possible suicide scenario.)

Agree, the likelihood of suicide without a body was discussed at length on the Teachers Pet podcast. Even Melissa Caddick (that fraud woman in Australia) left her foot behind.

 

[insanity]

To extend this more into speculation that does fit the pattern (and evidence?) though:

AKA abandons MB somewhere in Europe (or another “dream” location). MB is unaware because he has provided a reason for a temporary separation (meeting, business…take your pick!) = PATTERN

MB continues her trip solo, pottering around…unaware. Sends postcards, makes phone call to SL. = EVIDENCE. Something happens to MB in Europe (or other dream location not Oz).

BUT conflicting EVIDENCE shows MB’s passport returning and cash being withdrawn from her account and visiting optometrist in Grafton. All seemingly provides “proof of life” of MB back in Australia. A Smoke and mirrors trick in other words And made possible if the POI is a known document falsifier, fraud and immigration dodger and has the capacity to cover his travel tracks (at the time!). Plus, he is aware (and no one else apart from MB is) of MB’s name change and thus provides another diversionary advantage for him. Should MB be reporting missing at the time and LE go looking for her in the UK, she has been travelling as FNMR. If they look for her in Oz, they can see proof of life as MB. Smoke and Mirrors!

This makes so much sense!

 

[Liselle]

It was curious how Smith started asking questions about poison and Casselden said it wasn't the right time to discuss it. I get the feeling the inquest is solely focused on the scam part of it all, and to see what RB would divulge about Marion, and aren't dwelling on the potential for murder. I guess that is being left for the homicide squad and an ongoing separate investigation. IDK. I hope homicide are still investigating.

Just listening again to Day 15 of the inquest, AC said the question of poisons by Mr S. was not in the right "time frame" so I thought this would then be discussed on Day 16. As this topic didn’t come up again, I am suggesting a possibility that it will be investigated in greater detail and earmarked for a future proceeding. (Let’s hope so.) Why else object to something that has been proffered by various parties?

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Marion Barter disappearance: former lover challenged over assertion missing woman is still alive

Final day of inquest concludes as key witness Ric Blum tells counsel he ‘can’t remember’ details of important conversation with Barter

www.theguardian.com

Dated Sat June 3 2023

 

[hoodunnit]

Just listening again to Day 15 of the inquest, AC said the question of poisons by Mr S. was not in the right "time frame" so I thought this would then be discussed on Day 16. As this topic didn’t come up again, I am suggesting a possibility that it will be investigated in greater detail and earmarked for a future proceeding. (Let’s hope so.) Why else object to something that has been proffered by various parties?

Smith @ 3:56:56 asked AKA "do you have an interest in poisons?"
AC objected and said "perhaps a time frame could be put on the question"
Smith rephrased his question then to " at any point upto 2006 did you have an interest in poisons?"

 

[KiwiNZ]

Missing Person Marion Barter

Missing Person Marion Barter. 21,167 likes · 760 talking about this. Searching for my missing mum, Marion Barter Missing since 22 June 1997 © Sally Leydon 2013

www.facebook.com

Earlier this year I spoke to a couple who owned a Used Car Dealership near Ric Blum's home in 1997. They had not heard anything about the case and had never been contacted.
"Mr L" confirmed that he sold the Mitsubishi Magna registration "PVC 096" to Rick de Hedervary on 11th August, 1997. We have documentary evidence of this transaction to confirm this.
"Mr. L" recalls Mr. Blum clearly because he perceived him as so unusual in presentation and personality in this interaction. "Mr. L" told me that he recalled him talking about his leg injuries from his accident as a policeman in Belgium, his Jewish heritage and the fact he only “dealt in cash” as a successful "ancient coin dealer", this was his said trade.
He mentioned that he actually felt chuffed at the time that a man who was so educated with his perfect French accent was being so friendly with him, taking the time to talk to him about his extraordinary life story.
"Mr. L" recalled that he did see a “European looking woman” sitting in the car Mr. Blum drove to the yard. He thinks this woman was Mrs Diane de Hedervary, when looking at images of both Diane and Marion online, however it was a long time ago and the car was parked a distance away.
He stated that Mr. Blum told him that he was leaving Australia shortly, as he was in the process of purchasing an apartment in France in which to live. "Mr. L" had the impression this move was intended within days of him purchasing the car, he then wondered why he needed this “absolute rust bucket” at all.
"Mr. L"s wife also recalls her husband coming home that same night and talking to her about this customer and how unusual he was to the usual customer at this small used car lot. She supports his memories of his interactions and observations of Mr. Blum in 1997.
An observation within the timeline that is of note is that Marion, after arriving at Brisbane Airport on 2nd August, 1997 would have completed her stated eight day stay at the Novotel on the 10th of August, the day before this car was purchased by Mr. Blum.
Just another interesting account.
Joni

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

There is more than a suggestion that he uses fear, intimidation and blackmail to threaten his victims and the total lack of empathy and victim blaming could also suggest psychopathic tendencies.

The fact Marion seems to disappear off the face of the earth after the final cash payment was withdrawn in Oct 97 suggests to me he no longer had any use for her.

With his other Australian victims that we know of he failed to rob them of everything but in Marion’s case he did and there was every likelihood she would have gone to the Police. He couldn’t take that risk.

 

[marv hucker]

I'm not convinced that RB killed Marion!!!!

I have listened to his words and read everything, the same as anyone else!!!

It’s possible

She was clearly vulnerable, and had been targeted & defrauded by this piece of rubbish. Even if she got away from him, there may have been too much shame to go back to her old life - or she may not have had much interest in returning to it.

I don’t think it’s _likely_, but it’s possible.