Israel - Palestinian militants launch massive attack, 7 Oct 2023 #13

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I am trying to imagine being a nine year old child, held captive for 50 days by a terrorist group, after witnessing murder and mayhem. I try to imagine attempting to communicate this with anyone. And, all I picture and hear...are whimpers.

END TERRORISM !!


MOO and Peace
 
Their job was really not to underestimate. This happened under their watch.
True. I'd be very angry.

But I think it is like when we had 9/11 massacre. Who imagined the level of cruelty and vitriol needed for that horror?

We didn't. And I have to admit it colours my attitude towards the 10/7 massacre. Needless, abject hatred and violence.

It fuels my belief that Israel is justified in their air and ground war.JMO
 
coordinated the hijacking of 4 plans to hit 4 buildings and kill 1000s of people just because we know hijackings happened.

People breech the US/Mexico border daily.. multiple times daily, but if a drug cartel decided to do what HAMAS did on Oct 7th.. coordinate and come flying across and send bombs over, etc. we should somehow expect that because they have successfully breeched the fence before?

I've said it before, but it's worth repeating. Those preventing terrorism have to get it right 100% of the time and those committing terrorism have to get it right once.
We do prepare the southern border from this. We have the southern border well surveilled.
Israel had stepped back on their border protection and diverted resources. https://wapo.st/3RledZp

“There weren’t enough soldiers; there weren’t enough capabilities,” said Eyal Hulata, the head of the country’s National Security Council from 2021 to 2023. “The first line of defense became the last line of defense, and this should never happen. Israel knows that.”

Claiming in recent years that Hamas had been successfully contained in Gaza, Netanyahu oversaw the gradual withdrawal of troops from the south. Forces left behind at the military and intelligence bases were trained to rely on sophisticated cameras and sensors to monitor for border infiltrations, and to alert forces on the ground in case of unusual events.
 
Agreed.
It calls into question why they are deserving of the welfare handouts ?
Undeserved -- if they're actively trying to harm/kill the hostages.
Omo.

Gaza has been under a blockade since 2007; they can't even fish safely from their one fishing village.

I don't think there is any real conception of how Palestinians are forced to live.


 
They're terrorists and their numbers at the border have always been huge. Starting in 2018, on Fridays they have held riots at the fence. The border area was not properly secured. They are an angry terrorist group. What do you expect from an angry terrorist mob which is armed with Iranian rockets and wants to destroy Israel?

Hundreds of Palestinians riot on Gaza border; 9 said wounded by IDF fire​

Military says suspects hurled explosives at fence, tried to cross it; violent protest comes after report claiming Hamas may resume regular marches on frontier​

By EMANUEL FABIAN 1 September 2023, 11:49 pm 11
Weekly protests along the frontier began at the end of March 2018 and continued almost every Friday until the end of 2019, with the demand that Israel lift its restrictions on the movement of people and goods into and out of the coastal enclave and calling for the return of Palestinian refugees and their descendants to lands that are now a part of the Jewish state.

Israel says its blockade of Gaza is necessary to prevent Hamas from freely arming itself for war and attacks.

The protests frequently included violence, including the hurling of explosives, rocks and firebombs at IDF soldiers, as well as attempts to storm and sabotage the border fence, and in some cases live fire toward Israeli soldiers. Troops often responded with rubber-coated bullets and tear gas as well as live fire. More than 200 Palestinians were killed at the demonstrations and thousands were injured.

In addition, Palestinians regularly flew helium balloons into Israel carrying explosives and incendiary devices, sparking fires that destroyed large swaths of foliage.

While Hamas is said to now consider resuming the ”Marches of Return,” as they came to be known, no official statement has yet been published by the terror group on its future plans.
Thanks for this. Now I better understand why there are so many Palestinians incarcerated in Israel.

And now I don't feel quite as bad about the many bombs being dropped by IDF. This^^^ kind of helps explain that response. Thank You for the context.
 
I wonder if Israel really thought Hamas 'could' breach the Iron Wall.


"The barrier, which is an innovative and technologically advanced project, deprives Hamas of one of the capabilities it tried to develop," Israeli Defence Minister Benny Gantz said, according to a defence ministry statement.

The ministry said the barrier, which includes hundreds of cameras, radars and other sensors, spans 65 kilometres (40 miles) and that 140,000 tonnes of iron and steel were used in its construction, which took 3.5 years to complete.


imo
That and there were some domestic issues, resulting in decreased number of troops. Although without actual numbers, I have no idea how much the troop issue played into it. Another source had stated more troops were focused on the West Bank in recent months.

At least 250 killed in unprecedented Hamas attack in Israel; prime minister says country is "at war"

The escalation comes after weeks of heightened tensions along Israel's volatile border with Gaza, and heavy fighting in the Israeli-occupied West Bank. It also comes at a delicate time for Netanyahu's far-right government, with hundreds of soldiers in the military reserves have either pulling out of training sessions or promising they won't report for duty over government's deeply divisive plan to weaken the Supreme Court.

The divisions within army ranks have threatened to undermine Netanyahu's reputation as a security expert who would do anything to protect Israel and the cohesion of an institution crucial to the stability of a country locked in low-intensity conflicts on multiple fronts and facing threats from Lebanon's Hezbollah militant group.
 
Gaza has been under a blockade since 2007; they can't even fish safely from their one fishing village.

I don't think there is any real conception of how Palestinians are forced to live.


Isn't there kind of a catch 22 though?

If you had violent neighbours that publicly threatened to kill you and your family if they every get the chance, what would you do?

Would you keep the biggest barriers between your homes as possible and have video cams and stay armed, even sending warning shots?

Maybe if Gaza stopped making those kind of threats and sending lethal helium balloons and rockets and tried to negotiate calmly, things would change.

Israel had 200k work permits for Gazans---who were allowed entry and were entrenched in Israel. There were many Arabs who lived and worked alongside Israeli Jews.

Gaza could have tried to show they were not going to 'kill' the Jews but wanted to live peaceably and wanted to gain their trust. Instead, they made it very clear what their main goal and objective was.
 

Untreated diseases could kill more than bombings in Gaza, WHO warns​

[…]

Diarrhoea and respiratory infections are widespread among children in overcrowded UN facilities where almost 1.1 million people are sheltering.

Patients with chronic illnesses like cancer are also receiving no treatment.

[…]

The UN estimates that more than 1.8 million people in Gaza have fled their homes over the past seven weeks. About 60% of them are sheltering in 156 facilities belonging to the UN agency for Palestinian refugees, Unrwa.

WHO spokeswoman Dr Margaret Harris told a news conference in Geneva that an assessment of those shelters had found outbreaks of infectious diseases, with cases of diarrhoea among children aged five and older more than 100 times normal levels by early November.

No treatment is available for them, she said, without which infants in particular can deteriorate and die very quickly.

[…]

 
Isn't there kind of a catch 22 though?

If you had violent neighbours that publicly threatened to kill you and your family if they every get the chance, what would you do?

Would you keep the biggest barriers between your homes as possible and have video cams and stay armed, even sending warning shots?

Maybe if Gaza stopped making those kind of threats and sending lethal helium balloons and rockets and tried to negotiate calmly, things would change.

Israel had 200k work permits for Gazans---who were allowed entry and were entrenched in Israel. There were many Arabs who lived and worked alongside Israeli Jews.

Gaza could have tried to show they were not going to 'kill' the Jews but wanted to live peaceably and wanted to gain their trust. Instead, they made it very clear what their main goal and objective was.
Well said Katy.

I've seen posts on this thread that criticize Israel actions in regards to Gaza that seem to ignore the reasons behind them.

If attacks from Gaza against Israel never happened I believe we would be seeing a much different approach from Israel towards them. JMO.
 

IMO they learned their lesson with this deal. It was part of this deal that they released Sinwar and he is the head of HAMAS now.. the ringleader of this terror. I don't think they will do that again.
Unless the Israelis are able to capture them alive I don't see any other option when push comes to shove.
Do you?
 
Well said Katy.
s
I've seen posts on this thread that criticize Israel actions in regards to Gaza that seem to ignore the reasons behind them.

If attacks from Gaza against Israel never happened I believe we would be seeing a much different approach from Israel towards them. JMO.
"If attacks from Gaza against Israel never happened I believe we would be seeing a much different approach from Israel towards them. JMO."


Israel and allies have had the Palestinians on the back- back burner for quite a few years now, so what different kind of approach can you think of.
Did you see the map of Israel that Bibi recently held up at the UN during his speech?

Netanyahu under fire for using Greater Land of Israel map ...


Jerusalem Post
https://www.jpost.com › Israel News › Israel Politics



Sep 22, 2023 — Prime Minister Netanyahu is under fire on social media for holding up a map at the United Nations General Assembly plenum on Friday that placed ...

Netanyahu brandishes map of Israel that includes West ...


The Times of Israel
https://www.timesofisrael.com › liveblog_entry › net...



Sep 22, 2023 — @IsraeliPM today used a map at the UN showing Israel as comprising all of Mandatory Palestine. This should also be condemned by the US and all ...
 
Israel and allies have had the Palestinians on the back- back burner for quite a few years now, so what different kind of approach can you think of.
Did you see the map of Israel that Bibi recently held up at the UN during his speech?

Netanyahu under fire for using Greater Land of Israel map ...


Jerusalem Post
https://www.jpost.com › Israel News › Israel Politics



Sep 22, 2023 — Prime Minister Netanyahu is under fire on social media for holding up a map at the United Nations General Assembly plenum on Friday that placed ...

Netanyahu brandishes map of Israel that includes West ...


The Times of Israel
https://www.timesofisrael.com › liveblog_entry › net...



Sep 22, 2023 — @IsraeliPM today used a map at the UN showing Israel as comprising all of Mandatory Palestine. This should also be condemned by the US and all ...
Because the Israelis have been attacked by them for many years now.

<modsnip>

JMO.
 
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12m ago

A 14-year-old Palestinian who was released by Israel today said he witnessed beatings while he was detained in an Israeli prison.

Ahmad Salayme
, in an interview with Al Jazeera, said:


He said he had been told not to celebrate upon his release from prison, and that he was not allowed to leave his house, raise any banners or use a megaphone, “If I break any of these rules I will be taken back,” he said. He added:



Given that Israelis are not permitted to protest the release of Palestinians from prison under the terms of agreement with Hamas, I think it's fair to ask released prisoners to keep quiet. jmo
 
Thanks for this. Now I better understand why there are so many Palestinians incarcerated in Israel.

And now I don't feel quite as bad about the many bombs being dropped by IDF. This^^^ kind of helps explain that response. Thank You for the context.
In America the president is concerned regarding humanitarian issues for civilians waiting for the next promised bout of bombing to be inflicted on them.
Can't be too many buildings left standing undamaged.

The damage to hospitals is unbelievable and cannot all be due to badly aimed or misfiring Hamas rockets. Winter will come and with it will come starvation; exposure to the elements; disease and death.

This is a land and its people bombed back into the dark ages: I try to avoid using Godwin's law in discussion, but Good Lord if there ever was an occasion it is now when the parallels are so in your face it is staggering.

This is not for the benefit of Jews world wide or even in Israel. It is political and for the benefit of what is in real terms a small group of political idealists tramping over anything which is not them.
The hostages were not really an issue when they got in the way of blood lust to kill off Hamas, until the outrage engendered and led by their families - and good on them - became a real political issue.
If the US president can't influence and curtail this ruling party then they are definitely out of control.
There has been a lot more than an eye for an eye in revenge for the 7th, there has been a holocaust.
My opinion
 
I'm not sure Netanyahu can do much about it if a child talks to his family about what happened while in captivity.
Of course talk to their family, friends, therapists and anyone else,I would think It's much better for them to talk than not.
I was referring to them talking to the media about the atrocities they experienced and/or saw and the media spreading it worldwide when negotiations are ongoing.
My concern is for the held hostages.
 
"If attacks from Gaza against Israel never happened I believe we would be seeing a much different approach from Israel towards them. JMO."


Israel and allies have had the Palestinians on the back- back burner for quite a few years now, so what different kind of approach can you think of.
Did you see the map of Israel that Bibi recently held up at the UN during his speech?

Netanyahu under fire for using Greater Land of Israel map ...


Jerusalem Post
https://www.jpost.com › Israel News › Israel Politics



Sep 22, 2023 — Prime Minister Netanyahu is under fire on social media for holding up a map at the United Nations General Assembly plenum on Friday that placed ...

Netanyahu brandishes map of Israel that includes West ...


The Times of Israel
https://www.timesofisrael.com › liveblog_entry › net...



Sep 22, 2023 — @IsraeliPM today used a map at the UN showing Israel as comprising all of Mandatory Palestine. This should also be condemned by the US and all ...
To be honest, I don't think 1) Netanyahu has the backing of his people to do that, and 2) I doubt after this war, and all the global protests, that the world will allow that to occur without serious objection and consequences. jmo
 
We do prepare the southern border from this. We have the southern border well surveilled.
Israel had stepped back on their border protection and diverted resources. https://wapo.st/3RledZp

“There weren’t enough soldiers; there weren’t enough capabilities,” said Eyal Hulata, the head of the country’s National Security Council from 2021 to 2023. “The first line of defense became the last line of defense, and this should never happen. Israel knows that.”

Claiming in recent years that Hamas had been successfully contained in Gaza, Netanyahu oversaw the gradual withdrawal of troops from the south. Forces left behind at the military and intelligence bases were trained to rely on sophisticated cameras and sensors to monitor for border infiltrations, and to alert forces on the ground in case of unusual events.
I live on the southern border and people come through every single day. Not through a checkpoint.. like through the border, unknown to border patrol.. every single day. Yes it's watched, there is a wall, but it is not 100% and if an enemy was planning an attack in a similar way that was well coordinated like Oct 7th was.. we would not be well quipped to stop it immediately.. we have agents and they would react.. sure, but damage would be done before it would be stopped. If the wall made it really secure then nobody would come through.. where I live there is an entire section that has no wall.. people walk right in... helicopters often fly over the area to root them out from the terrain they are hiding in. There are always going to be possible ways those that wish to do harm can get in, break through, attack.. and as much as the US plans, as much as Israel plans for their wall, nothing is going to be 100% for 100% of the time... as I said before Terrorists have to get it right or get lucky maybe is the better way to put it one time and we see what can happen.
 
1 min ago

2 Palestinians died after Jenin hospital was blocked by Israeli forces, charity care agency official says​

From CNN's Hande Atay Alam

Two Palestinians died after Israeli military vehicles blocked the entrance of the hospital in Jenin, denying the patients access to care for their wounds, according to Dr. Christos Christou, international president of Doctors Without Borders, also known as Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF).

"For two hours, we were not able to leave to provide care and people could not reach us, as Israeli military vehicles blocked the entrance of the hospital and the road, preventing ambulances from leaving. Two Palestinians died of wounds while ambulances could not reach them, " Christou wrote on X, formerly known as Twitter.

Christou said he was visiting the MSF team at the Khalil Suleiman Hospital in Jenin in the occupied West Bank when the "Israeli army conducted an incursion on Jenin refugee camp."

"This must stop now. Patients should have access to healthcare at all times," Christou wrote.

"There's nothing worse for a doctor to know that there are people there needing our care and they cannot get it," Christou said in a video posted on X.

Earlier on Tuesday, the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) told CNN that clashes were ongoing in Jenin.

“The IDF is conducting counterterrorism activities in the area,” the IDF said, adding that it would not provide any more details until operations were completed.

 

Untreated diseases could kill more than bombings in Gaza, WHO warns​

[…]

Diarrhoea and respiratory infections are widespread among children in overcrowded UN facilities where almost 1.1 million people are sheltering.

Patients with chronic illnesses like cancer are also receiving no treatment.

[…]

The UN estimates that more than 1.8 million people in Gaza have fled their homes over the past seven weeks. About 60% of them are sheltering in 156 facilities belonging to the UN agency for Palestinian refugees, Unrwa.

WHO spokeswoman Dr Margaret Harris told a news conference in Geneva that an assessment of those shelters had found outbreaks of infectious diseases, with cases of diarrhoea among children aged five and older more than 100 times normal levels by early November.

No treatment is available for them, she said, without which infants in particular can deteriorate and die very quickly.

[…]


The world has barely come out of one pandemic; there is nothing to say that the conditions warned of in Gaza might not precipitate another.

Cause mediaeval conditions expect mediaeval diseases.
My opinion
 
In America the president is concerned regarding humanitarian issues for civilians waiting for the next promised bout of bombing to be inflicted on them.
Can't be too many buildings left standing undamaged.

The damage to hospitals is unbelievable and cannot all be due to badly aimed or misfiring Hamas rockets. Winter will come and with it will come starvation; exposure to the elements; disease and death.

This is a land and its people bombed back into the dark ages: I try to avoid using Godwin's law in discussion, but Good Lord if there ever was an occasion it is now when the parallels are so in your face it is staggering.

This is not for the benefit of Jews world wide or even in Israel. It is political and for the benefit of what is in real terms a small group of political idealists tramping over anything which is not them.
The hostages were not really an issue when they got in the way of blood lust to kill off Hamas, until the outrage engendered and led by their families - and good on them - became a real political issue.
If the US president can't influence and curtail this ruling party then they are definitely out of control.
There has been a lot more than an eye for an eye in revenge for the 7th, there has been a holocaust.
My opinion
I don't think this is the typical tit for tat. I think Israel is done. I think and agree Hamas and all the other little terrorists hiding in the Gaza strip need to be completely destroyed. Gaza needs be a demilitarized for awhile.

I can't believe anybody thought this was a little quick scrimmage. No, this is the end for Hamas. That's why Israel begged the civilians to evacuate. I'm willing to bet it gets a lot worse before it gets any better.
 
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