Weekend Discussion thread 04/21-24/2012

[otto]

totally agree with you there about "what parent would permit TLM to babysit their child" and we now know that TM didn't but MR would not have known that about TLM...she had done some babysitting (or so she had listed on her resume QUOTE]


So he had access to her resume?

Are you thinking that because he knew TLM's name, he researched her resume and would not think twice about taking a 9 year old child to a remote area with a hammer because TLM listed babysitting on her resume?

 

[Ardy]

I would also be interested in seeing a link to prove your assertions about the physical effects of Oxycontin addiction. By your logic, TLM's not an addict either, as her teeth haven't rotted out and no one has mentioned her scratching all the time. Also, she's physically attractive. So there goes that theory.

Also, how do you explain the numerous women who testified about his Oxycontin addiction?

Drug addicts don't use the medicine within safe dosage limits or by safe delivery methods, so they are subject to experiencing the most severe side affects of the drugs.

http://www.migraines.org/treatment/prooxyco.htm

http://www.narconon.ca/oxycontin.htm

JMO...............

 

[Tahorn]

You said all the adults in her life where drug addicts which is quite incorrect. I know some adults who worked with her who are definaltly not drug addicts. You may want to make your statement more concise.

TLM listed babysitting of a 8 year old and a 5 year old on her resume, so I don't think the jury will consider that to be impossible. Besides all the people in TLM life were addicts so I doubt they would think twice about TLM babysiting.

I am pretty sure that the people that worked with her would not be on a personal level to which they would have her babysit their child.

 

[Kittymama]

Drug addicts don't use the medicine within safe dosage limits or by safe delivery methods, so they are subject to experiencing the most severe side affects of the drugs.

http://www.migraines.org/treatment/prooxyco.htm

http://www.narconon.ca/oxycontin.htm

JMO...............

Side effects are possibilities, not guarantees. You asserted that MTR doesn't fit the profile of an Oxy addict. Those links you posted list side effects and withdrawal symptoms, but not the effects of long-term Oxy addiction.

Again, where is your proof that MTR probably wasn't an Oxy addict because he didn't show signs of itching, having rotten teeth, or of having poor hygiene (his car certainly indicated poor hygiene, though--yuck!)? And what about the fact that TLM didn't show these signs, either?

 

[Ardy]

A 28 year old man that doesn't understand normal formalities regarding caring for young children? Unless he is intellectually defective (60 IQ range), I don't believe that. He attended a wedding not too long before the murder and there were pictures of him holding two young girls (4-6 years of age). He knew people that had young children and knew perfectly well what was normal and acceptable and what wasn't. Didn't he say something to TLM about Tori not being young enough?

I think you are missing the fact that TLM and TM knew each other.

Quite likely MR knew they knew each other.

It wouldn't be that unusual for people to babysit for someone they know.

JMO..........

 

[snoofer]

Side effects are possibilities, not guarantees. You asserted that MTR doesn't fit the profile of an Oxy addict. Those links you posted list side effects and withdrawal symptoms, but not the effects of long-term Oxy addiction.

Again, where is your proof that MTR probably wasn't an Oxy addict because he didn't show signs of itching, having rotten teeth, or of having poor hygiene (his car certainly indicated poor hygiene, though--yuck!)? And what about the fact that TLM didn't show these signs, either?

yes, and maybe it is because I (we) am a law abiding citizen, but if crown and LE state that two undercover officers were told by MTR he takes that enormous amount of those drugs, then I believe those officers. JMO

 

[Tahorn]

It actually has nothing to do with TLM. If a 28 year old man, photographed at a wedding with two preschooler girls, didn't know how to care for children that photo would not exist. It's common sense to know that a 28 year old man either does or doesn't know that it's not okay to take a 9 year old girl to a remote area with a coffe, hammer and garbage bags.

It doesn't really matter what TLM has to say other than whether he has been placed at the scene of the crime ... and he has. She can say what she wants after that, but there is nothing he can say to explain himself.

I agree that it isn't reasonable for anyone to take another persons child for a ride to Guelph. What I am saying is that it is possible that MR may have believed TLM was babysitting and a quick trip to Guelph wouldn't be an issue.

 

[otto]

To me, this seems so odd ... how close her name is to TM and that MR called her while TS was in the car ... such a weird coincidence. Too bad she couldn't recount the call.

QUOTE: Tara McLellan, 30, also testified Friday that she went on a date with Rafferty around that time after chatting with him on Plenty of Fish. They went on a coffee date to Tim Hortons on April 1 but didn't go out again after that, she testified. He did, however, call her at 4:28 p.m. on April 8, phone records show, though McLellan doesn't remember receiving the call. END QUOTE

From this article:
http://www.fm96.com/Channels/newsinfo/localnews/Story.aspx?ID=1690558

A date at Tim Horton's? What sort of future was he offering? Mickie Dees? It takes a desperate woman to accept that coffee at Tim Hortons or sex with a movie menu is a date.

What sort of coincidence are you seeing ... all their names appear to be Scottish, with the "Mc" and "Mac", but is there another coincidence?

 

[Ardy]

Armstrong considered Rafferty, 31, a "confidante" and sold him pills a few times a month for more than a year.

Armstrong testified she sold Rafferty more painkillers a few days later and met with him on a dozen more occasions until his arrest on May 19, 2009.

"He was looking haggard. He had a cold sore. He gets cold sores when he's super stressed," she said of their first meeting following Stafford's abduction. "He said that he hadn't been eating. He hadn't been sleeping. He was so stressed out, so many things going on in his life."

http://www.canada.com/Stafford+Tria...dealer+planned+search+Tori/6367050/story.html

It looks like he was fairly new to his addiction, he did have a proscription bottle in his bedroom. However after it looks like he changed his consumption level increased dramatically.

Rafferty asked the officers posing as inmates if they were carrying any drugs. They said no, but when he was asked what he was looking for, Rafferty said he wanted "Oxy," or OxyContin. He said he would take five 80 mg OxyContin pills a day, or 11 or 12 if they were 40 mg size. Rafferty said he would take 20 to 30 Percocets a day.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/04/05/rafferty-stafford-trial-thursday.html

I had never read that information before.

It would indicate to me that he hasn't been in jail before though.

That isn't the kind of question a person would want to ask his fellow inmates.

First..........they wouldn't know if he was a cop.

Second......they have all been strip searched, and there is only one place left to hide drugs..........and nobody is about to reach up and recover them just yet because there are cameras in there.

Third........Drugs are currency in jail and MR had nothing to offer them.

I would put it down to probably a little "male bravado" for the boys........

JMO............

 

[otto]

TLM listed babysitting of a 8 year old and a 5 year old on her resume, so I don't think the jury will consider that to be impossible. Besides all the people in TLM life were addicts so I doubt they would think twice about TLM babysiting.

I am pretty sure that the people that worked with her would not be on a personal level to which they would have her babysit their child.

A murderer listed babysitting on her resume and ... and what are we supposed to think ... that people viewed her as a childcare provider? I doubt MR was that stupid.

 

[otto]

I think you are missing the fact that TLM and TM knew each other.

Quite likely MR knew they knew each other.

It wouldn't be that unusual for people to babysit for someone they know.

JMO..........

TLM met the victim's mother once through her mother ... how do you get to the point of thinking that MR knew the victim or her mother? There has been no testimony about that.

Who did TLM babysit for?

 

[otto]

I agree that it isn't reasonable for anyone to take another persons child for a ride to Guelph. What I am saying is that it is possible that MR may have believed TLM was babysitting and a quick trip to Guelph wouldn't be an issue.

Given the circumstances, I don't believe it is possible that a 28 year old man thought that babysitting included a trip to a secluded area, a hammer, garbage bags and failure to return the child to the parents.

 

[otto]

I had never read that information before.

It would indicate to me that he hasn't been in jail before though.

That isn't the kind of question a person would want to ask his fellow inmates.

First..........they wouldn't know if he was a cop.

Second......they have all been strip searched, and there is only one place left to hide drugs..........and nobody is about to reach up and recover them just yet because there are cameras in there.

Third........Drugs are currency in jail and MR had nothing to offer them.

I would put it down to probably a little "male bravado" for the boys........

JMO............

Are you suggesting that when MR was looking to feed his drug habit he wasn't really looking for drugs, he was trying to look like a tough guy? ... if only he could find a drug dealer to testify to that, but instead apparently he was a regular customer of his drug dealer for over a year prior to the murder.

 

[Alice Ramnit]

Another victim?

I guess the theory of MR's incredible ability to victimize a numerous and wide ranging number of women supports the Crown's accusation, based on TLM's testimony, that the kidnapping was a master plan by a skillful manipulator......who apparently simultaneously was dumb as a brick.

My biggest problem with the Crown's case is the beginning.

Based on TLM's testimony, we have to believe.............

Despite having a long list of female encounters, none of whom made any reference to a devious sexual side of MR, one day he woke up and decided to take a child and sexually assault her.

He decided it was a good idea to take a witness along with him.

A witness who was recently released from custody, was a drug addict, and was continually in and out of trouble with the law. Surely he could depend on her to keep a secret like this for the rest of his life.

He decided that rather than drive to Guelph and kidnap a child there, it would be a better idea to kidnap one in Woodstock and drive around with her in the backseat of the car for a couple of hours.

He pulled the battery out of his phone so he wouldn't be tracked leaving Woodstock.........frantically listens to the radio for kidnapping alerts and then decides to insert the battery back into the phone when he arrives at Guelph.......just down the highway.

He decided it would be a good idea to stop at Tim Horton for tea, pick up some drugs at a friends home with his car parked out front of her home and a kidnapped young girl inside, and stick around and "chat" for about 10 minutes.

Then he decided to continue on with the crime.

But let's go back to the actual abduction...............

TLM testified it was totally random.

Out of all the elementary schools in Woodstock, they end up at this one.

Out of all the kids in the school, she picks up VS.

Out of all the dog breeds in the world, she talks about the same breed as VS owns.

She walks VS down the street, passing a woman waiting for her own child and who knows whoever else waiting for their kids or just arriving for their kids, and is unconcerned that she is going to be stopped or approached about why she is with that child.

After all she claims she didn't know VS was TM's daughter. She claimed the abduction was random, so she didn't know who VS parents were or what they looked like.

But she did know TM. Her mother had sold drugs to TM and boyfriend JG on numerous occasions. TM knew her from 2 trips to TLM's house.

All of these "coincidences" and there is more..............

TLM testified...she didn't know why she took a little girl that day, she doesn't know why she didn't escape with VS, and she doesn't know why she murdered VS...........but she has an incredibly clear memory of everything else, apparently good enough to sketch out maps for LE.

At this point, I don't know what the defense theory will eventually be, but I don't know how it could be any more unbelievable than the story TLM spun.

I don't believe TLM..........I have never believed TLM.........and I never will.

MR's involvement in the crime is still to be determined, but I don't believe for a second that TLM was an innocent dupe or victim in this case.

****Not that you said she was..but that appears to be the Crown case.

JMO............

Drugs addle the brain. I don't believe that TLM was an innocent dupe either...I DO believe that sometimes, rarely, two psychopaths converge.

http://www.change.org/petitions/tori-s-law

 

[BorgQueen]

A date at Tim Horton's? What sort of future was he offering? Mickie Dees? It takes a desperate woman to accept that coffee at Tim Hortons or sex with a movie menu is a date.

What sort of coincidence are you seeing ... all their names appear to be Scottish, with the "Mc" and "Mac", but is there another coincidence?

'Coincidences' I am seeing are:
-The women are quite lonely/desperate. To the point of looking for a date using a website such as POF. (and that is NOT a judgement. Been there, done that, had my life threatened as a result of not responding to one guy's multiple messages, will never do it again).
-Many of these women are single parents.

Vulnerability is often a side-effect of severe loneliness and being a single parent.



MOO.

 

[girlfriday]

A date at Tim Horton's? What sort of future was he offering? Mickie Dees? It takes a desperate woman to accept that coffee at Tim Hortons or sex with a movie menu is a date.

What sort of coincidence are you seeing ... all their names appear to be Scottish, with the "Mc" and "Mac", but is there another coincidence?

Tori's mother is also named Tara and same initials (TM or Tara M). I think it was the last call from the phone before it was turned off. Just seems odd to me.

As always, this is just my opinion.

 

[snoofer]

Drugs addle the brain. I don't believe that TLM was an innocent dupe either...I DO believe that sometimes, rarely, two psychopaths converge.

http://www.change.org/petitions/tori-s-law

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hare_Psychopathy_Checklist"]Hare Psychopathy Checklist - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

here is an interesting checklist! JMO

 

[~n/t~]

I wish there were more reporters like her!!

Certainly, as Mr. Rafferty was before Victoria (Tori) Stafford’s kidnapping and death — carousing like a rabbit, living off the avails of one young woman and using her money to buy presents for others, juggling more than a dozen women like balls in the air, constantly working his BlackBerry to make the next connection that might satisfy what was clearly an omnivorous appetite — so was he after it.

But through his lawyer, Dirk Derstine, Mr. Rafferty has admitted being in his car when Terri-Lynne McClintic arrived with the little girl (Mr. Derstine said Mr. Rafferty “thought nothing of it”) and to helping McClintic, then one of his girlfriends, “clean up.”

In his cross-examination of McClintic here last month, Mr. Derstine maintained that Mr. Rafferty turned down McClintic’s crass offer to have the child sexually, was sent away from the car for a time, and was “horrified” when he returned to find Tori dead on the ground.

Horrified, Mr. Derstine proclaimed his client was to see that child dead. Really? All the evidence suggests that April 8, 2009 was just another ordinary Michael Rafferty day.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...n-michael-raffertys-frenetic-sexual-calendar/


Full article at the link.

 

[BorgQueen]

Hare Psychopathy Checklist - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

here is an interesting checklist! JMO

Interesting, but a very important quote in the article: "Hare argues that the test should only be considered valid if administered by a suitably qualified and experienced clinician under controlled and licensed conditions."

The same can be said about all psychiatric evaluation. When one is not qualified to make the assessment, it is not valid. One may form an opinion, make assumptions, but without being a qualified psychiatrist/psychologist, it is not fact.
Many psychological problems share traits/symptoms. Without the necessary qualifications, and a proper evaluation (which one would need to spend time with the 'patient'), it is dangerous and slanderous to label somebody as a psychopath, sociopath, or anything.
I'm not saying that the convicted and the accused are not psychopaths or sociopaths. They may very well be such. But we do not know for sure. And we never will know due to patient/doctor confidentiality. There are plenty of other conditions that either of the two may suffer.



Just my opinion, of course. It is interesting. I am not a professional, but I am interested in psychology, myself. And I would be lying if I said that I did not come to my own conclusions. But, it is just opinion, not fact.


(also, I would like to point out that wikipedia is not the most reliable resource. Anybody can edit these articles, and I have noticed many differences between what is said in wikipedia articles and what I have read in various textbooks.)



MOO. (Wish I could still :moo: ... I liked that cow!)

 

[snoofer]

Interesting, but a very important quote in the article: "Hare argues that the test should only be considered valid if administered by a suitably qualified and experienced clinician under controlled and licensed conditions."

The same can be said about all psychiatric evaluation. When one is not qualified to make the assessment, it is not valid. One may form an opinion, make assumptions, but without being a qualified psychiatrist/psychologist, it is not fact.
Many psychological problems share traits/symptoms. Without the necessary qualifications, and a proper evaluation (which one would need to spend time with the 'patient'), it is dangerous and slanderous to label somebody as a psychopath, sociopath, or anything.
I'm not saying that the convicted and the accused are not psychopaths or sociopaths. They may very well be such. But we do not know for sure. And we never will know due to patient/doctor confidentiality. There are plenty of other conditions that either of the two may suffer.



Just my opinion, of course. It is interesting. I am not a professional, but I am interested in psychology, myself. And I would be lying if I said that I did not come to my own conclusions. But, it is just opinion, not fact.


(also, I would like to point out that wikipedia is not the most reliable resource. Anybody can edit these articles, and I have noticed many differences between what is said in wikipedia articles and what I have read in various textbooks.)



MOO. (Wish I could still :moo: ... I liked that cow!)

fully agree (said interesting read) and miss that cow too. JMO