Shannan Gilbert Found, death declared an accident. #2

[PreciousDust]

According to the police, which is in that point consistent with Pak's and Brewer's statements, there were three person IN the house: SG, JB and the drifter. OUTSIDE the house and only for some minutes inside in between was Michael Pak.
So, I wasn't there. But the police was. And they counted.

Really? The police were there that night/early morning, and counted JB and the drifter and occasionally Michael Pak, and no one else? And the police were sure no one had been there earlier on, when SG was there and they weren't there to count? I wasn't aware of that, I had thought that some or all of their information was based on interviews (though, alas, not an interview of SG, which would have been the most important one), and what they could hear in the background on the 911 call.

 

[nugzter]

According to the police, which is in that point consistent with Pak's and Brewer's statements, there were three person IN the house: SG, JB and the drifter. OUTSIDE the house and only for some minutes inside in between was Michael Pak.
So, I wasn't there. But the police was. And they counted.

Something to think about.
Could it be possible that SG was there to put on a strip show for JB and the Drifter? This could explain why JB was so adamant about no sex that night.
For example. Lets say the Drifter is a good buddy of JB and that night was his Birthday or what ever reason to party down. There is nothing worse than two old dudes sitting around the house with drugs and booze, bored stiff. So hey, lets look up an escort. Have a little female company, see some skin, do some coke.
It has always been my belief that not all escorts are prostitutes (meaning sexual favors). Some just get taken out on the town, to be shown off.
Dudes are stupid. And coked out dudes are even more ignorant. So lets say shes dancing around half naked, and one of them gets too touchy feely, and there are word exchanged like, hey how about a freebie or something not bargained for at the start.
It has been stated that SG would take no crap. And people on coke use it because it boosts your feeling of self 20 times. If you are a jerk normayl, you are a jerk times 20 on coke. For me it is easy to see how and argument would start with that combination of drugs and characters in the house that night.
You want to see a coke head calm down real fast. Jump on the phone with 911. And start telling the operator, "hey, I'm in danger". Worst nightmare. Busted with drugs and a prostitute, oops. First thing on their minds is get her out of my house and as far away as possible. I want nothing to do with this situation.
This is all just a made up scenario. But I have seen similar things happen in real life at partys, with the exception of the prostitutes.

 

[BKS]

Really? The police were there that night/early morning, and counted JB and the drifter and occasionally Michael Pak, and no one else? And the police were sure no one had been there earlier on, when SG was there and they weren't there to count? I wasn't aware of that, I had thought that some or all of their information was based on interviews (though, alas, not an interview of SG, which would have been the most important one), and what they could hear in the background on the 911 call.

Thats right PD, The police did not talk to MP that night. MP was not there when the police arrived. Actually we have no way of knowing who else was there as we have never seen the original police report. I wonder if they even talked to Brewer that night! Also, in interviews with Pak he never mentions anyone else was there. Neither does Brewer. The police did not actually count the people that were there that night because we know Pak and Shannan were not there when police arrived! So if there were people there to be counted, who were they?

 

[PreciousDust]

The police did not actually count the people that were there that night ...

And that's the reason there's no point stating there were a certain number of people there that night as "fact"; it's not one, or at least it's not (and probably never can be) proven. Which, for me, means only one thing:

Shannan Gilbert could very well have run off in the brush because of justified or unjustified fears, and died of exposure. Based on what we know of Shannan's history, it's not an entirely unlikely scenario, despite some curious circumstances that would almost stretch the bounds of reasonable coincidence. On the other hand, we don't know what happened, and sometimes unusual things do happen (and, perhaps, those curious circumstances enhance the possibilities that unusual things may have occurred). As Mr. Brendt has pointed out, directly accusing specific individuals based on theory is libelous, and it's wrong; however, there's nothing wrong with examining what we do know and trying to make sense of what happened, while not pointing fingers at anyone in particular. And that's why there's a Shannan Gilbert thread on a serial killer board - so that people can discuss it.

 

[Adler]

And don't forget, that the fact, she could make that call is already a hint in itself




The second problem is, that SG couldn't have known about the GB2. She had no time machine to go seven months in the future when the bodies were discovered. So any arguing about she panicked because she knew is nonsense. She couldn't.



.

Why not? Two were wrapped in burlap and placed on the beach at that point, right? Perhaps she somehow learned that she might be #3 to the burlap. Just because we learned about the first burlap G-2 seven months later does not preclude her from having learned something that night that would lead to a conclusion that she was in very real danger and somehow relating to murders at the beach. The latter GB-2 (of the many other remains they found out there) were included with the first two after Shannan died. Right?

 

[Adler]

Something to think about.
Could it be possible that SG was there to put on a strip show for JB and the Drifter? This could explain why JB was so adamant about no sex that night.
For example. Lets say the Drifter is a good buddy of JB and that night was his Birthday or what ever reason to party down. There is nothing worse than two old dudes sitting around the house with drugs and booze, bored stiff. So hey, lets look up an escort. Have a little female company, see some skin, do some coke.
It has always been my belief that not all escorts are prostitutes (meaning sexual favors). Some just get taken out on the town, to be shown off.
Dudes are stupid. And coked out dudes are even more ignorant. So lets say shes dancing around half naked, and one of them gets too touchy feely, and there are word exchanged like, hey how about a freebie or something not bargained for at the start.
It has been stated that SG would take no crap. And people on coke use it because it boosts your feeling of self 20 times. If you are a jerk normayl, you are a jerk times 20 on coke. For me it is easy to see how and argument would start with that combination of drugs and characters in the house that night.
You want to see a coke head calm down real fast. Jump on the phone with 911. And start telling the operator, "hey, I'm in danger". Worst nightmare. Busted with drugs and a prostitute, oops. First thing on their minds is get her out of my house and as far away as possible. I want nothing to do with this situation.
This is all just a made up scenario. But I have seen similar things happen in real life at partys, with the exception of the prostitutes.

Good thinking!

 

[svpernin]

This probably isn't the ideal thread for this but it's the most active and I wanted to share this new article with everyone (don't get too excited, it's just an overview, but it's well-written and worth reading):

http://issuu.com/milieu/docs/v01i03?mode=window&viewMode=doublePage

It starts on page 24/25

ETA: I don't know what's up with the yellow'ed out sections, they're visible in the actual publication and don't contain any confidential info or anything.

 

[Justiceforever]

Good thinking!

Nugzter you are right on the money! ESCORT DOES NOT ALWAYS EQUAL Prostitute! I speak from experience. I am tired of people making that assumptions esp. the media who dubbs these girls as hookers! Clients get REAL upset when they dont get what they want! I know! There are also men/drivers/pimps who can get very scary if they dont get there cut! I nelieve SG was afraid of Pak...Notoce I didnt say I think he killed her...but I think she was terrified that he would seriously hurt if not kill her! That would expain why she ran from him and possibly got lost and succumbed to the elements

 

[Emre E]

In this discussion it is all interpreted as if the course of events that took place on May 1st 2010 can be explained by our "arbitrary" choice of whether Shannan was hysterical or not.

Think again, think deeper; our preferences as to her mental stability bears no significance.

Shannan being hysterical does not necessarily mean she's not murdered, or Shannan being in panic yet control of her actions doesn’t mean she's immune to accidents.

It all boils down to one thing, what set her off? Without the 911 call, we can only speculate.

A lot of people in this forum asking the correct questions, like the missing bone, whether her jeans is inside out or not. These are issues that need to explained, at least to the family.

Michael Pak says he slept in the SUV, or additionally Peter Brendt recites he played an online game and LE knows this. Whether he slept or played an online game, these are fundamentally the same thing, i.e. he's in the car, having no idea about what is going on inside the house.

FACT IS; he talked with Shannan on the phone six times. When did telling lies got so easy?

Did it take Dormer a year and a half to build the "crazy girl tangled to death" theory?

This could normally be a theory on the first time, when somebody lays hands on the missing SG case and LE could do what it takes.

In the simplest form you take ten men, order them to make a shoulder-to-shoulder sweep of the land, in the right direction not the opposite direction she's been seen. But this hasn't been done for three times. Aug 2010 (Four months after she's gone missin), Dec 2010 and Mar 2011. But never done. Then where is the backbone of your theory?

Limited funds of LE is a fat boloney. Do you know the hourly operational cost of a Blackhawk, or the other choppers in the air. Now, it is cheaper?

I'm never saying that SCPD is covering up an evil serial killer. They are covering a series of botches.

Sometimes, I imagine my wife sitting in the same car of a subway with a sick person who could take lives with no remorse. The idea alone repulses me.

I am with Windsor.

I believe US citizens must start a campaign of letters, e-mails to whomever has the power and the courage to take action.

As an outsider, here is my word once again, if the Gilbert family decides to hire a feisty attorney who is willing to go praying mantis on the system, I will extend my support.

 

[BelieveinUFO]

Originally Posted by nugzter
Something to think about.
Could it be possible that SG was there to put on a strip show for JB and the Drifter? This could explain why JB was so adamant about no sex that night.
For example. Lets say the Drifter is a good buddy of JB and that night was his Birthday or what ever reason to party down. There is nothing worse than two old dudes sitting around the house with drugs and booze, bored stiff. So hey, lets look up an escort. Have a little female company, see some skin, do some coke.
It has always been my belief that not all escorts are prostitutes (meaning sexual favors). Some just get taken out on the town, to be shown off.
Dudes are stupid. And coked out dudes are even more ignorant. So lets say shes dancing around half naked, and one of them gets too touchy feely, and there are word exchanged like, hey how about a freebie or something not bargained for at the start.
It has been stated that SG would take no crap. And people on coke use it because it boosts your feeling of self 20 times. If you are a jerk normayl, you are a jerk times 20 on coke. For me it is easy to see how and argument would start with that combination of drugs and characters in the house that night.
You want to see a coke head calm down real fast. Jump on the phone with 911. And start telling the operator, "hey, I'm in danger". Worst nightmare. Busted with drugs and a prostitute, oops. First thing on their minds is get her out of my house and as far away as possible. I want nothing to do with this situation.
This is all just a made up scenario. But I have seen similar things happen in real life at partys, with the exception of the prostitutes

If this was the case, MP would NOT have said that he believed that they (SG and JB) had sex. So that means SG was not this type.

MP did say that he saw JB shove SG through her neck from back to get her out of the house.

 

[Maddalenasgirl]

Well put.
Let's try to keep on sleuthing with an open mind:

If Shannan Gilbert tragically ran 1/4+ miles through a marsh with no shoes or leg coverings, and died, then LE would have no problem forking over lots of other evidence, such as the 911 recording, other people's phone records, findings regarding the location of the body, the remains (beyond a missing hyoid), information regarding her clothes and other belongings found on the other side of the marsh, computer records, text messages, information about the drifter (probably a euphemism for "national drug dealer") and relocating Shannan's jacket that they purportedly lost (I do not think they lost it). At this point we may all perceive more about this case with what we know by looking at what is being hidden from the public than by over-analyzing what we all agree is on the surface. Long hard road, yes. Unfortunately, for now, for you, for me--we are not allowed beyond this point due to LE decisions regarding this case.

911 call from Shannon that people are trying to kill her + missing hyoid speaks loudly doesn't it?

 

[Maddalenasgirl]

Sorry not personally attacking you Seaslug, but isn't the fact that Shannan said they were going to killer her still proof she was murdered?

It would be where I am from. I can tell you that all sorts of LE would be all over it.

 

[Maddalenasgirl]

There are many misleading news articles and inaccurate statements made by the press in every case that comes down the pike. You have to take what is reported in the media with a grain of salt. I too have been delving into this case for well over a year. The truth has come out on several issues. Just off the top of my head.....

1. Joseph Brewer answered an online ad and hired Shannan for the night.
2. Michael Pak was Shannan's driver and transported Shannan to Oak Beach on that night.
3. Shannan called 911, tried to give directions to dispatch as to where she was. She notified them that she was in danger of being killed.
4. Shannan banged on the door of Mr. Colletti's home, hysterical and pleading for help.
5. Mr. Coletti called 911 and reported the incident.
6. Shannan ran from Coletti's home before the police arrived and was never seen again.
7. Pak was driving around searching for Shannan and then left Oak Beach and went somewhere else before the police arrived.
8. Shannan's skeletal remains were found 1 1/2 years later. The hyoid bone was missing, some of her cloths were found in the adjacent swamp along with her cell phone, purse and lipgloss.
9. Dr. Hackett did call Mari (Shannan's mother) on at least 2 occasions.
10. Oak Beach is a gated community. The video from the gate that night was never recovered.
11. Shannan Gilbert disappeared just a few few miles from Gilgo Beach where the remains of several prostitutes were found.

These are just a few of the facts in this case that lead me to believe that Shannan indeed fall victim to an event that caused her death. Accidental death? Maybe. SK? Could be. Is there a conspiracy to cover up what happened to Shannan on that fateful night? In my mind,definitely.

Believing that Shannan was murdered is one thing and proving it is another is really what it all comes down to.

 

[SoSueMe]

I'm a little late to this party, but please, let's nix the psychic discussion and any reference to it.

Websleuths does not allow the discussion of psychics.

If you have any questions about this rule, please PM a moderator and do not address it on this thread.

Thank you!

 

[Seaslug44]

If this was the case, MP would NOT have said that he believed that they (SG and JB) had sex. So that means SG was not this type.

MP did say that he saw JB shove SG through her neck from back to get her out of the house.

Odd. I've watched every interview with MP multiple times and never once did he say JB SHOVED SG.

Where on Earth are you getting this information from???

 

[BelieveinUFO]

Odd. I've watched every interview with MP multiple times and never once did he say JB SHOVED SG.

Where on Earth are you getting this information from???

well, you can read the references relating to this case earlier. I elaborated it as "shove" - when a person touches your neck and pushes you to make you go out.
MP did say about this in some articles but I took it as "shove".

Ofcourse MP's account of JB's action can be taken in different perspective but that's my perspective.


Edit: The point is it is an "assualt" when a person touches you when you don't want that person's advances (/ threats)

 

[mcme]

It looks like it was the reason for the 911 call.

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/12/shannan_gilbert_remains_found.html



The last day of Gilbert’s life began when 47-year-old Joseph Brewer, who used to live at 8 The Fairway, in Oak Beach, answered an ad she had posted on a social networking website in April of last year. The sexual encounter, however, never happened, Brewer told The Star-Ledger in an exclusive story in June. What he did say was, she asked him an odd question about transvestites, leading him to believe she was a man, and when Brewer asked her to leave, she began to act erratically, he said.
Brewer then called for help from her driver, Michael Pak, who was waiting in an SUV outside the home. When Brewer tried to grab Gilbert from behind, according to Pak, she slipped his grip and cowered behind a couch. From there she dialed 911 and during a 23-minute-long phone call pleaded with authorities to help her because someone was trying to kill her.

 

[MrsPC]

Odd. I've watched every interview with MP multiple times and never once did he say JB SHOVED SG.

Where on Earth are you getting this information from???

In the A&E special in Dec (IIRC) Pak was interviewed and talked about Brewer grabbing Gilbert around the neck from behind...and he even stated he didn't know why Brewer had done that.

the video is no longer avail unless you purchase it online

 

[genericwhitemale]

In the A&E special in Dec (IIRC) Pak was interviewed and talked about Brewer grabbing Gilbert around the neck from behind...and he even stated he didn't know why Brewer had done that.

the video is no longer avail unless you purchase it online

I think this is the one you're referring to. There's five parts in total. Check out Part 1 @3:48 where Pak talks about Brewer grabbing Shannan.

[video=youtube;RIhi055VroE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIhi055VroE[/video]

 

[MrsPC]

thank you ...didn't realize the video was still available

Pak clearly states that Brewer grabbed Gilbert from behind and he thought Brewer was trying to push her out