IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #16

[CoeTrawk]

forgive me if this was already discussed..but has it been discussed on here that there is a nature trail called "evansdale nature trail"that runs from layfayette straight down to the bike trail at meyers lake? if the girls biked this trail, then that would explain why more people did not see them that day. is this trail "ridable"? I am seeing it on google maps. I have never seen it before on a map.

It is. Actually the lake trail is part of Evansdale Nature Trail. The whole Waterloo/Cedar Falls/Evansdale area is full of these types of bike trails. They are variously just the sidewalks by roads or paved sections away from the roads. Its possible that they were seen on film up at those businesses, then turned around on another street (and so not seen on camera again), got on the trail where you said, and rode most of the way down, but cut over onto a road and went down Lake (where they were seen by C____ as he watered his yard) to take a short cut across the Arbutus field and hook up with the trail again right by the woods.

 

[Jax49]

Yes it could, but I assume that LE has checked them, the paddleboat and their property out. They did willingly come forward and by doing so subjected themselves to a possible search. I just can't picture someone grabbing two girls using a paddleboat. Yes it could be used as a lure, but no matter where on the shorline their destination was, can you picture someone paddling like a bat of hell trying to get there? In my opinion anyone who would choose a paddle boat as the escape vehicle of choice wouldn't be smart enough to elude all of us for this long.[/quote]

Thanks MNDad, I needed a laugh.

Just to clarify my post--I meant that someone could have 'borrowed' the boat while the homeowners were away, not that they were suspect.

So far we have a paddleboat, an unseen vehicle, an ATV, other bicycles, or the girls never were at the lake---as suggested possibilities. Plus of course the impossible timeline.

I don't know about the rest of you but I'm starting to dream about the number eight. And, I think my IQ must have dropped at least that many points since I became obsessed (yes, I said it) with this case.

 

[MNDad]

Thanks MNDad, I needed a laugh.

Just to clarify my post--I meant that someone could have 'borrowed' the boat while the homeowners were away, not that they were suspect.

So far we have a paddleboat, an unseen vehicle, an ATV, other bicycles, or the girls never were at the lake---as suggested possibilities. Plus of course the impossible timeline.

I don't know about the rest of your but I'm starting to dream about the number eight. And, I think my IQ must have dropped at least that many points since I became obsessed (yes, I said it) with this case.

Right, it might not have been the boat owners because they have been forthright, but even if someone borrowed it for the purposes of abducting two girls, they would have to be the dumbest criminals like the two in Home Alone.

I think I know what I believe, but I have to be open to alternatives because my beliefs are are based on hunches. However, I don't know if I have to be so open to believe that a paddle boat was used in this crime. Then again......who the heck knows.

 

[Bootsctr]

OT- But I wonder if the yellow nail polish topic is related to this. . .

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148578&highlight=dungeon

Thank you. Very interesting.

 

[Jax49]

Right, it might not have been the boat owners because they have been forthright, but even if someone borrowed it for the purposes of abducting two girls, they would have to be the dumbest criminals like the two in Home Alone.

I think I know what I believe, but I have to be open to alternatives because my beliefs are are based on hunches. However, I don't know if I have to be so open to believe that a paddle boat was used in this crime. Then again......who the heck knows.

I don't have a paddleboat in my "best guess" scenario either. Of course, my best guess changes about every eight hours.

 

[Bootsctr]

It is. Actually the lake trail is part of Evansdale Nature Trail. The whole Waterloo/Cedar Falls/Evansdale area is full of these types of bike trails. They are variously just the sidewalks by roads or paved sections away from the roads. Its possible that they were seen on film up at those businesses, then turned around on another street (and so not seen on camera again), got on the trail where you said, and rode most of the way down, but cut over onto a road and went down Lake (where they were seen by C____ as he watered his yard) to take a short cut across the Arbutus field and hook up with the trail again right by the woods.

Thank you. So this would be more "as the crow flies"?

 

[Bootsctr]

The request for the paddle boater could have not been as a suspect but as an additional witness to corroborate other times that had already been reported. Flee via paddle boat doesn't make sense to me (again unless it is to a local dock as the final destination).

(Bringing forward from thread #15)

Yes I agree. If the paddle boater was someone who had borrowed the boat without the owner's advice they would likely not come forward to say they had seen anything to avoid risk of being punished.

 

[Jax49]

Off Topic

LE found more body parts in Canada.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/08/17/hands-mississauga/

Police searchers found two hands, a left and a right hand, in the Credit River in Mississauga Friday, near where they found a head on Thursday.
“Within the last couple of hours, our search team has discovered and seized and found two hands. Both a left hand and a right hand,” Sgt. Pete Brandwood told reporters at 3 p.m.

 

[Bootsctr]

Have been playing catch-up for a couple of days now <am I the only one who hears the groans?!?> lol

I was finally ready to ask a couple of questions when you guys switched threads. So please forgive my snipped/c/p style of quoting GrainneDhu's most interesting/informative post: " ...If the newest scent was on the bicycles, the dogs should have cast around and just kept going back to the bicycles, saying with their behaviour "newest scent is right here on these bikes, boss."

That answered what was going to be my first Question! I hadn't suspected that the bikes had been "dragged" but had wondered if dogs could follow a scent "old to new" which doubled back on itself in a matter of minutes. Wow...

Now re: Cindersoot's post on the difference in size of helmets and heads of women and children. Q#1: Can anybody tell me if the girls were wearing bike helmets?

Q#2: regarding LC's size: Are there any recent photos online of LC which show more of her than the headshots? (In recent headshots, she appears to me to look more like a 13-yr. old. It seems that I read she weights 145 lbs. What are the chances that people could have seen them that day and not recognized that they were seeing an 8 and 10 year old?)

Sorry, I don't know the question regarding if the girls were wearing helmets. I suspect not.

I have a young cousin. She just turned 13 a month ago. She looks like she could be 18 years old. Worry about her a lot. I did think Lyric looked large for her age in her recent pictures and an early bloomer. Elizabeth looked small. From a distance, I imagined side by side from a distance someone could have mistaken Elizabeth for an adult.

 

[Bootsctr]

Off Topic

LE found more body parts in Canada.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/08/17/hands-mississauga/

Police searchers found two hands, a left and a right hand, in the Credit River in Mississauga Friday, near where they found a head on Thursday.
“Within the last couple of hours, our search team has discovered and seized and found two hands. Both a left hand and a right hand,” Sgt. Pete Brandwood told reporters at 3 p.m.

Thanks for the update Jax! :notgood: raying: :grouphug:

 

[cindersoot]

forgive me if this was already discussed..but has it been discussed on here that there is a nature trail called "evansdale nature trail"that runs from layfayette straight down to the bike trail at meyers lake? if the girls biked this trail, then that would explain why more people did not see them that day. is this trail "ridable"? I am seeing it on google maps. I have never seen it before on a map.

Thankyou for bringing this up. I have been saying that all along.:rocker:

 

[Bootsctr]

SBM

It depends on the dog.

I have seen a few dogs that would track down a double laid track where the person walks in one direction, then makes a 180 degree turn and tries to walk over the track they just laid. Those few dogs would go right down to the place the person made the 180 degree turn, turn with the turn and follow the tracklayer back along the trail.

Many dogs don't. It's highly unlikely that someone will double back for very long distances. Eventually that person will step away from their pre-laid track and go somewhere else. Dogs will often skip the double laid portion of the track and just make the turn where the tracklayer turned off the track. If the particular individual that the dog is tracking lays down fresher scent, that's what the dog is most likely to follow.

I suspect that dogs are capable of more than humans realise. The problem isn't the capabilities of dogs, it's the human ability to communicate to the dog what is wanted that is probably lacking.

Dogs do make mistakes. So do handlers. Put the two living beings together and the occasional mistake is going to happen.

I am really enjoying your posts regarding the dogs. I am interested in all animal behavior (Jane Goodall is my hero). My own dog, a black lab, I have noticed she seems to track my scent from oldest to newest. Sometimes I am able to slip out of the house to fill my bird feeders, make sure the bird baths are full and the hummingbird feeders are full. My route can be somewhat crazy..... think the little boy in the Family Circle cartoons. When Annie finally realizes that I have slipped away from her my husband will let her out and she immediately starts smelling my trail that I left the house from and then because I guess I am close by she will eventually lift her head and smell the air and run straight to me.... and I do occasionally try to hide from her. She can also pick up the scent of an egg. I have to be very careful when I gather my eggs not to set them down anywhere within her reaching capability because she will track that scent in the air and snatch and suck it in a second.

Off topic: Did anyone see the pics of the two brother Gorillas who were reunited after 3 years? One of them had been sent to another zoo for their breeding program. The keepers expected there to be aggression when the one was brought back. Surprisingly, they recognized each other immediately and hugged each other and in one shot the largest brother looked like he had a smile a mile wide. Sorry for the rambling off topic. Animals are amazing.

 

[cindersoot]

OT- But I wonder if the yellow nail polish topic is related to this. . .

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148578&highlight=dungeon

Wow, thats unbelievable how many. I bet it is related to just that.:what:

 

[Jax49]

Off topic: Did anyone see the pics of the two brother Gorillas who were reunited after 3 years? One of them had been sent to another zoo for their breeding program. The keepers expected there to be aggression when the one was brought back. Surprisingly, they recognized each other immediately and hugged each other and in one shot the largest brother looked like he had a smile a mile wide. Sorry for the rambling off topic. Animals are amazing.

OFF TOPIC

Thank you. I had not seen that. Wow. Just wow.

 

[Bootsctr]

Thankyou for bringing this up. I have been saying that all along.:rocker:

Cindersoot or anyone, what are your theories on who might have taken the girls? I know I have seen talk of possibly local teenagers taking the girls. Have followed a few stories where the perps turned out to be other teens....

1. Alyssa Bustamante was 15 when she killed Elizabeth Olten in 2009. 'she wanted to know what it felt like' to kill someone.

2. Jessica Funk-Haslam - For some reason I suspected she could have been killed by fellow teens. People she thought were her friends turned on her.

ETA: Just read detectives actually took DNA swabs from Jessica's former classmates

I know there are more. Hard to think about.

 

[cindersoot]

Cindersoot, what are your theories on who might have taken the girls? I know I have seen talk of possibly local teenagers taking the girls. Have followed a few stories where the perps turned out to be other teens....

1. Alyssa Bustamante was 15 when she killed Elizabeth Olten in 2009. 'she wanted to know what it felt like' to kill someone.

2. Jessica Funk-Haslam - For some reason I suspected she could have been killed by fellow teens. People she thought were her friends turned on her.

ETA: Just read detectives actually took DNA swabs from Jessica's former classmates

I know there are more. Hard to think about.

My theory hasn't really changed much from the beginning. I think the girls took the bike trail off LaFayette st, straight to the lake. I think they were lured there with a promise of a boat ride. I don't think they actually got into a boat but I think they headed to the water ( the reason the purse was there) and were taken to the woods to a vehicle. I think more than one person is involved and I think it is due to sex trafficking. It might also be that the girls had been watched by perps for along time. I think they met the perp for the first time on a different day and was told that next time they are biking to come to the lake for a boat ride. It was probally a date the girls were looking forward to, hence the reason they rode so fast past the camera. JMO

 

[cindersoot]

Last night I was thinking about Elizabeths purse, I wonder if it was like a backpack? I say that because it might mean a struggle took place and the purse or backpack came off. Or if she wore it crossbody also. I would think she would wear the purse either way especially while riding a bike.

 

[nikb]

Apologies if this is a repeat but I just ran across this article about the girls and don't recall seeing it before: http://wcfcourier.com/news/evansdal...cle_9693c394-e546-11e1-bac3-0019bb2963f4.html

 

[GrainneDhu]

I am really enjoying your posts regarding the dogs. I am interested in all animal behavior (Jane Goodall is my hero). My own dog, a black lab, I have noticed she seems to track my scent from oldest to newest. Sometimes I am able to slip out of the house to fill my bird feeders, make sure the bird baths are full and the hummingbird feeders are full. My route can be somewhat crazy..... think the little boy in the Family Circle cartoons. When Annie finally realizes that I have slipped away from her my husband will let her out and she immediately starts smelling my trail that I left the house from and then because I guess I am close by she will eventually lift her head and smell the air and run straight to me.... and I do occasionally try to hide from her. She can also pick up the scent of an egg. I have to be very careful when I gather my eggs not to set them down anywhere within her reaching capability because she will track that scent in the air and snatch and suck it in a second.

SBM

Thank you!

Air scenting is actually encouraged by SAR handlers who are looking for live victims. As you've observed, air scenting is a way for a dog to shortcut to the goal and it's quite effective. In SAR, what counts is finding the victim as quickly as possible.

Foxhounds will also air scent sometimes (they only work hot scent). And sometimes, when conditions are just right, the scent rises up over the heads of the hounds and the riders can smell it but the dogs can't. It is a very weird thing when a human can smell something that a dog cannot.

 

[Bootsctr]

Apologies if this is a repeat but I just ran across this article about the girls and don't recall seeing it before: http://wcfcourier.com/news/evansdal...cle_9693c394-e546-11e1-bac3-0019bb2963f4.html

Thank you. I had not seen it either. The hand drawn portraits of the girls are gorgeous.

snipped from article:

A silent auction featured donated clothing, jewelry, home decor with messages of love, hope and faith, food, hotel stays, two trips for two to Cancun, Mexico, photographs autographed by celebrities, drawings of both girls, quilts, movies, toys and beauty products.

Donations can be made at any Veridian Credit Union branch to the Lyric Cook-Morrissey and Elizabeth Collins Fund. A portion of the proceeds also will go toward a $50,000 reward.