GUILTY OR - Whitney Heichel, 21, Gresham, 16 Oct 2012 #4

[nikb]

Just a friendly FYI, it is possible to turn off the ability to view other people's signatures, and many posters do that because so many posters have made really large sigs with big pictures that take a long time to load, so it is quite possible your signature is not being seen at all by a lot of us, including me. (My own fault, I know, but I just don't like wasting so much time just on sigs.)

I know your intent was to let people know that others might not see their signature(s) but I just wanted to say THANKS! I hadn't seen that option before. You just saved me hundreds of pages of scrolling when I log in on my phone.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

What had JH planned to do with his backpack full of electronics and a gun when he was scheduled for work at 6am that fateful morning? Did he need all those electronics for work? Did he regularly carry a gun? Did he regularly call Starbucks at 6:08 in the morning when he should have already been at work, and about 45 minutes before running into WH to ask for a ride? Why didn’t he call WH’s home or cell phone? Oh right – because he didn’t immediately confess to seeing WH that morning - the “robbers” got him before 6am and he was MIA for the rest of the day.

I say thoroughly planned. JMVHO.

This is the first I've heard that JH was scheduled to go to work at 6 AM that morning (yes, it's probably in the pdf). Thank you!

Why would a guy planning on abducting, assaulting, and murdering the woman he's had a crush on have anything but his gun(s), and maybe a change of clothes in a backpack he took that morning? (And the screwdriver.)

The backpack contents don't 'fit' with the obviously pre-planned events.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

Just a friendly FYI, it is possible to turn off the ability to view other people's signatures, and many posters do that because so many posters have made really large sigs with big pictures that take a long time to load, so it is quite possible your signature is not being seen at all by a lot of us, including me. (My own fault, I know, but I just don't like wasting so much time just on sigs.)

Good point, and I, in fact had to turn my signature viewing off just this week--this forum takes a long time to load, probably due to all the media storage associated with it.

Just so y'all don't worry (at least on account of me)--I will give anyone the benefit of the doubt concerning the IMO stuff; I assume it's your opinion and that you know it. Especially in a forum devoted to tossing theories and ideas around.

 

[Xavier]

Holt's wife filed for divorce on Friday: http://www.kgw.com/news/local/Jonathan-Holts-wife-files-for-divorce-176341531.html

This is good news for Mrs Holt. I'm wondering if she's even stopped by the jail to visit or even call to speak to Holt. I'm wondering if she's broken off all communication and also even if she'll attend the trial or proceedings...Maybe she's so disgusted with Holt, she's completely written him out of life..

 

[msthinksalot]

There is a possibility, I think, that he didn't intend to kill but his pent up emotions, his frustration and rage got the better of him, and once he calmed down a little he was horrified by what just happened. This would explain the tears and the deeply troubled face at his arraignment, the suicide watch, and yes, he might just tell everyting now to get it off his chest, believing he should be punished.

I've said it before, and I still think so: the guy snapped. He had accumulated too much anger, rage and frustration within him, and it all exploded that morning. I think that he deeply believes that he's utterly worthless, before the crime and now even more so. I think he's in inner hell right now, and has been for some time. He's not the cocky, arrogant criminal without remorse. He's a complete loser and he knows it.

Moo and none of this is an excuse of course for what he's done. Just possibly an explanation.

Snipped a little and BBM.

ITA! I think that once he got in there that day, remembering that he'd already had two interviews, he knew that they were onto him, but he didn't know how much. And as his wife said, we know that he'd been behaving strangely. I think he was absolutely freaking out and I think he had been since the moment he killed Whitney. I wouldn't go so far as to say he's feeling remorse, because I'm not so sure he's able to step outside his own self-obsessed mind to truly feel bad for Whitney. I think he just feels bad for being a total screw-up... and he knows that he's taken his screwed-upness too far this time. He's really screwed. I think that it was probably a relief for him to just finally spill the beans to the cops... and also, he sort of had to. I mean, he'd previously made up this ridiculous story about being robbed at gunpoint by two mystery "black guys"... who supposedly stole all of his electronics (which he hadn't yet ditched). He knew the cops were going to find and search his electronics. He knew he was going to be busted for the kiddie *advertiser censored*, too. It was too stressful for him to keep up the charade, and once those floodgates opened, he couldn't very well keep things back. He's the epitome of pathetic.

... having a mental illness doesn't mean a person isn't in control of their thoughts and actions. The worrisome thing is that many times MI is used as a defense in a criminal trial. There are those rare occasions when insanity does apply because the suspect isn't in control of his/her thoughts. But, insanity pleas are overused and it's a disservice to those who do function normally because all individuals with mental illness are then viewed as a danger to society. The same goes for people with cognitive deficits. I've worked with MR/DD populations, including those with aggressive behaviors. Having a low IQ does not make anyone more prone to violence than someone with a normal to high IQ. But, using that as a defense only leads society to stereotype people with mental disorders as violent and irrational.

Snipped for space... thank you for this post!

With what we know, and judging by his actions, he does not fit the criteria for the effect of mental disease or defect. That he understood the criminality of his actions is demonstrated by his driving out of town to commit the sodomy, that he murdered Whitney upon completing the sexual assault and in the process of kidnapping her, his hiding her body in a remote location and his tossing of evidence in numerous locations, i.e. he was attempting to hide his crime. The story he concocted to explain his whereabouts on that day... and that he made himself a victim in his story further illustrates his knowledge of the criminality of his actions. ORS § 161.295 states:

(1) A person is guilty except for insanity if, as a result of mental disease or defect at the time of engaging in criminal conduct, the person lacks substantial capacity either to appreciate the criminality of the conduct or to conform the conduct to the requirements of law.

(2) As used in chapter 743, Oregon Laws 1971, the terms mental disease or defect do not include an abnormality manifested only by repeated criminal or otherwise antisocial conduct, nor do they include any abnormality constituting solely a personality disorder. [1971 c.743 §36; 1983 c.800 §1]​

This is the first I've heard that JH was scheduled to go to work at 6 AM that morning (yes, it's probably in the pdf). Thank you!

Why would a guy planning on abducting, assaulting, and murdering the woman he's had a crush on have anything but his gun(s), and maybe a change of clothes in a backpack he took that morning? (And the screwdriver.)

The backpack contents don't 'fit' with the obviously pre-planned events.

You really need to read the PDF. It contains answers to many of the things you are asking, and will clarify some of the things that you don't yet know and understand. I'm happy to attach it to another post if you need a copy.

In the PDF it states that he had a lot of electronics in his backpack upon his third interview with police. The rest they had to seize from his home. I am going on a hunch only, but I reckon they were in his backpack because he intended to dispose of them, just like he'd been disposing of lots of other things. I think he was worried that police may look through his car while he was in the interview, but I don't think he went into the interview knowing exactly what they knew and that he would for sure be arrested. So he wasn't worried enough to ditch the electronics before the interview... but he was worried enough to stash his gun, because if they found that in a search of his car or person, he knew that would raise their hinky-meter. Once he knew he was under arrest, I think one of the many reasons he began spilling the beans was because he knew they were going to find the kiddie *advertiser censored* anyway because they were going to find the computers. At that point, he knew he was screwed because he was caught in so many lies and inconsistencies.

 

[msthinksalot]

This is good news for Mrs Holt. I'm wondering if she's even stopped by the jail to visit or even call to speak to Holt. I'm wondering if she's broken off all communication and also even if she'll attend the trial or proceedings...Maybe she's so disgusted with Holt, she's completely written him out of life..

It's likely she'd be called as a witness for the prosecution, if there is a trial, at least, in terms of the timeline of events.

 

[possumheart]

I haven't read every entry here today but just reading the 44 page search affadavit. Could it be that JH stole CH's iphone with the intent of trying to plant it later to implicate him????

 

[Xavier]

We'll possibly learn something about this mystery vehicle.

But it occured to me watching some vending trucks do their deliveries, could this vehicle belong to Holt's employer, the vending company? Vendors have all kinds of vehicles for routes, deliveries..

Maybe it was a co employee who was involved or even maybe gave Holt a lift. Just grasping at straws here folks...

Any thoughts if this sounds possible?

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

Snipped a little

You really need to read the PDF. It contains answers to many of the things you are asking, and will clarify some of the things that you don't yet know and understand. I'm happy to attach it to another post if you need a copy.

In the PDF it states that he had a lot of electronics in his backpack upon his third interview with police. The rest they had to seize from his home. I am going on a hunch only, but I reckon they were in his backpack because he intended to dispose of them, just like he'd been disposing of lots of other things. I think he was worried that police may look through his car while he was in the interview, but I don't think he went into the interview knowing exactly what they knew and that he would for sure be arrested. So he wasn't worried enough to ditch the electronics before the interview... but he was worried enough to stash his gun, because if they found that in a search of his car or person, he knew that would raise their hinky-meter. Once he knew he was under arrest, I think one of the many reasons he began spilling the beans was because he knew they were going to find the kiddie *advertiser censored* anyway because they were going to find the computers. At that point, he knew he was screwed because he was caught in so many lies and inconsistencies.

You're right. I need to read it (just trying to avoid it...so sad). *sigh* I'm off to do that.

 

[Melancholy]

I haven't read every entry here today but just reading the 44 page search affadavit. Could it be that JH stole CH's iphone with the intent of trying to plant it later to implicate him????

Frankly i think he stole it because he was rummaging their most private stuff--not just snooping in the medicine cabinets but straight up in their dresser drawers! I think he found it in the drawer, turned it on and THIS is why in think he took it:

My husband and I have been married nearly 20 years and I STILL send him kissy face pictures, pics of me making I love you signs, heck if I try on a bathing suit at the store I send him a pic. And we are old married folks. CH and WH are basically newly weds. I think he saw pics on there, and i am not implying indecent or provocative even, of WH and I think THAT is why he took it. Probably cute pics CH took of his wife and she would have an adoring look of affection when her hubby is behind the camera. I think that "familiar", loving HAPPY face of a woman in love is why he took it He could pretend she was looking at HIM.

 

[Xavier]

thanks for sharing. Where did you find this?

@ MARIE I found this comment from "scuttlebutt" was her moniker in the comment section from an article on the murder. I'll try to find it.

 

[Glow]

May be a bit O/T, but I dated, very mistakenly, a "high school football star" several years after his glory days. He was stuck in HS, never believing he would ever be as happy as he was in HS. 100% co-dependent, insecure, overly sensitive...with outbursts of self righteous anger at the slightest action he felt rejected him. He re-told stories about high school repeatedly: his winning catch at this game, the coach who "sabotaged" his game when the scout was there, etc....NEVER taking responsibility for a single failure.

Sorry, I may be venting. Not saying this really reveals any truth to JH's psyche, but I can imagine some similar actions, if even through projection.

I dont think this is O/T at all. I think you are exactly right.

 

[Xavier]

Snipped a little and BBM.

ITA! I think that once he got in there that day, remembering that he'd already had two interviews, he knew that they were onto him, but he didn't know how much. And as his wife said, we know that he'd been behaving strangely. I think he was absolutely freaking out and I think he had been since the moment he killed Whitney. I wouldn't go so far as to say he's feeling remorse, because I'm not so sure he's able to step outside his own self-obsessed mind to truly feel bad for Whitney. I think he just feels bad for being a total screw-up... and he knows that he's taken his screwed-upness too far this time. He's really screwed. I think that it was probably a relief for him to just finally spill the beans to the cops... and also, he sort of had to. I mean, he'd previously made up this ridiculous story about being robbed at gunpoint by two mystery "black guys"... who supposedly stole all of his electronics (which he hadn't yet ditched). He knew the cops were going to find and search his electronics. He knew he was going to be busted for the kiddie *advertiser censored*, too. It was too stressful for him to keep up the charade, and once those floodgates opened, he couldn't very well keep things back. He's the epitome of pathetic.



Snipped for space... thank you for this post!

With what we know, and judging by his actions, he does not fit the criteria for the effect of mental disease or defect. That he understood the criminality of his actions is demonstrated by his driving out of town to commit the sodomy, that he murdered Whitney upon completing the sexual assault and in the process of kidnapping her, his hiding her body in a remote location and his tossing of evidence in numerous locations, i.e. he was attempting to hide his crime. The story he concocted to explain his whereabouts on that day... and that he made himself a victim in his story further illustrates his knowledge of the criminality of his actions. ORS § 161.295 states:

(1) A person is guilty except for insanity if, as a result of mental disease or defect at the time of engaging in criminal conduct, the person lacks substantial capacity either to appreciate the criminality of the conduct or to conform the conduct to the requirements of law.

(2) As used in chapter 743, Oregon Laws 1971, the terms mental disease or defect do not include an abnormality manifested only by repeated criminal or otherwise antisocial conduct, nor do they include any abnormality constituting solely a personality disorder. [1971 c.743 §36; 1983 c.800 §1]​

You really need to read the PDF. It contains answers to many of the things you are asking, and will clarify some of the things that you don't yet know and understand. I'm happy to attach it to another post if you need a copy.

In the PDF it states that he had a lot of electronics in his backpack upon his third interview with police. The rest they had to seize from his home. I am going on a hunch only, but I reckon they were in his backpack because he intended to dispose of them, just like he'd been disposing of lots of other things. I think he was worried that police may look through his car while he was in the interview, but I don't think he went into the interview knowing exactly what they knew and that he would for sure be arrested. So he wasn't worried enough to ditch the electronics before the interview... but he was worried enough to stash his gun, because if they found that in a search of his car or person, he knew that would raise their hinky-meter. Once he knew he was under arrest, I think one of the many reasons he began spilling the beans was because he knew they were going to find the kiddie *advertiser censored* anyway because they were going to find the computers. At that point, he knew he was screwed because he was caught in so many lies and inconsistencies.

May be a bit O/T, but I dated, very mistakenly, a "high school football star" several years after his glory days. He was stuck in HS, never believing he would ever be as happy as he was in HS. 100% co-dependent, insecure, overly sensitive...with outbursts of self righteous anger at the slightest action he felt rejected him. He re-told stories about high school repeatedly: his winning catch at this game, the coach who "sabotaged" his game when the scout was there, etc....NEVER taking responsibility for a single failure.

Sorry, I may be venting. Not saying this really reveals any truth to JH's psyche, but I can imagine some similar actions, if even through projection.

Wow, so you knew Holt? It sounds like a guy with unresolved anger from the sports stage in high school...Your comments I think SPEAKS VOLUMES on Holt...He must've been a pretty good athlete with strength and agility...obviously able to over power young petite Whitney...Thanks for shedding your insights to all here..

 

[Glow]

So busy right now at work. My apologies to all for not doing my own research

Do we have a timeline that excludes the service vehicle?
Where was he after he took Whitney?

Why no blood on HIS clothes?

Was he standing outside the vehicle when he fired the first shot?

 

[newsjunkie]

Frankly i think he stole it because he was rummaging their most private stuff--not just snooping in the medicine cabinets but straight up in their dresser drawers! I think he found it in the drawer, turned it on and THIS is why in think he took it:

My husband and I have been married nearly 20 years and I STILL send him kissy face pictures, pics of me making I love you signs, heck if I try on a bathing suit at the store I send him a pic. And we are old married folks. CH and WH are basically newly weds. I think he saw pics on there, and i am not implying indecent or provocative even, of WH and I think THAT is why he took it. Probably cute pics CH took of his wife and she would have an adoring look of affection when her hubby is behind the camera. I think that "familiar", loving HAPPY face of a woman in love is why he took it He could pretend she was looking at HIM.

Although, I can definitely see your theory being true. . .I thought he simply saw a free iphone that no one was using and took it. I just bought an iphone on ebay, and for a used phone I paid $350.

 

[Xavier]

An exceprt from Holt's neighbor. Just shows some more weirdness to Holt...
Here's th elink to the full story if anyone's interested:

http://www.katu.com/news/local/Neighbors-never-saw-Holt-Heichel-together-175099421.html

“I see his wife with him,” Sandoval said. “I think he was married.”

Sandoval said she did notice some strange behavior from Holt, especially when he returned home from riding his motorcycle.

“He always wore his helmet all the time, never showed his face,” Sandoval said. “Like, why does this guy never take it off? He’s walking to his apartment, doesn’t need it anymore.”

 

[Quester]

I still think divorce was the motivation behind this senseless murder. I think the perp had to provide evidence of infidelity so that his wife could divorce, remain in good standing and guard her ability to remarry. The latter two criteria may or may not have been important to the perp.

The perp may have had a Plan A (if the victim agreed to go along with his plan) and B (if she didn’t). In any case, apparent and complete disregard for anyone else’s feelings, the victim's free will and her right to life.

 

[ImWithTheBand]

Late to the party, joined WS around the time of Autumn's disappearance and JUST finished all 4 threads for Whitney.

Wanted to read through before mentioning something I noticed in the affidavit. I really wanna urge everyone to read it, all of it, cause there are lots of questions answered in there!!

The driver of the white utility vehicle in the Walmart parking lot surveillance was located and interviewed by LE, it's in the affidavit.

I have not seen anyone mention something I found interesting about the person that is reported to have called to say WH's vehicle was found in the Walmart parking lot...it's the same person that reportedly gave JH a ride home the night he was walking around to 'clear his head'. Weird, IMO

I also want to say that finding this forum is neat for me, cause I have always been a natural sleuth-er, but never knew others existed. Yucky circumstances, but very cool to find like minds.

 

[eyes2lookatu]

Late to the party, joined WS around the time of Autumn's disappearance and JUST finished all 4 threads for Whitney.

Wanted to read through before mentioning something I noticed in the affidavit. I really wanna urge everyone to read it, all of it, cause there are lots of questions answered in there!!

The driver of the white utility vehicle in the Walmart parking lot surveillance was located and interviewed by LE, it's in the affidavit.

I have not seen anyone mention something I found interesting about the person that is reported to have called to say WH's vehicle was found in the Walmart parking lot...it's the same person that reportedly gave JH a ride home the night he was walking around to 'clear his head'. Weird, IMO

I also want to say that finding this forum is neat for me, cause I have always been a natural sleuth-er, but never knew others existed. Yucky circumstances, but very cool to find like minds.

I thought the driver that was located was in his vehicle near the dumpster, and he witnessed JH dumping items... I don't believe it's the same person that was parked next to WH's car in the parking lot. Please correct me if I am wrong though.

Also, how did you find out that the people that located WH's car were the same people that gave JH a ride home that evening/ I do however find it strange that he was picked up literally down the street from the Shell gas station where he (allegedly) had been earlier that day.

 

[ImWithTheBand]

I thought the driver that was located was in his vehicle near the dumpster, and he witnessed JH dumping items... I don't believe it's the same person that was parked next to WH's car in the parking lot. Please correct me if I am wrong though.

Also, how did you find out that the people that located WH's car were the same people that gave JH a ride home that evening/ I do however find it strange that he was picked up literally down the street from the Shell gas station where he (allegedly) had been earlier that day.

Unless I missed a part, and there was more than one White Utility Vehicle in the lot at that time, then I believe that is the person that stated they saw a white male putting things in the dumpster, but he didn't know what.

Going to try to attach screen shots about the ride, crossing my fingers



- The entire exchange is not in this screen shot, just where it begins talking about the persons who picked him up.
http://media.oregonlive.com/gresham_impact/other/holt1.pdf Pages 12-13