IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #27

[SapphireSteel]

Male/Female couples have abducted girls in the past, so for investigators to admit that they cannot yet identify the gender of the perp does not mean that it is not a sex crime.

Absolutely, it is only my opinion. Based on what they HAVEN'T said, as well as what they have.

:cow: :moo:

 

[otto]

Maybe I'm missing something, but why else would someone abducted an 8 and 10 year old?? As sick as it sounds, what else would they do with them??? Is it really that common for a child to NOT be sexually assaulted when abducted?? Unless they were taken simply because the perp wanted to pass them off as their own, but since they turned up dead in the clothes they were taken in, we can probably rule that out.

I'm convinced that this is a sexually motivated abduction and murder ... always have been. However, I was responding to a comment that suggested that this was not sexually motivated ... perhaps that poster can respond to your question.

 

[otto]

Absolutely, it is only my opinion. Based on what they HAVEN'T said, as well as what they have.

:cow: :moo:

I said the opposite of what you have said.

 

[georger]

Trafficking. Perp only provided the merchandise. ?

If that is the motive, why then kill them?

 

[Tucarra]

He was involved with a 13 year old in 1981. He believed that the girl was older because she had history. He pleaded guilty in exchange for having drug charges dropped.

http://newspaperarchive.com/waterloo-courier/1981-12-07

Hmmm...evidently linking more than once to the Waterloo Courier won't let you look unless you subscribe ? Seems a recent change, but OK...

 

[georger]

Hmmm...evidently linking more than once to the Waterloo Courier won't let you look unless you subscribe ? Seems a recent change, but OK...

Curious way to do business! No use = no business.

 

[Tucarra]

If that is the motive, why then kill them?

Wild guess...

Deal gone wrong?

Like a drug dealer flushing drugs as the cops come close?

Horrible to think of..

 

[chelsea6]

That would be my guess.

Bear in mind this is opinion only.

Also, compare to the Jessica Ridgeway case - LE warned the public very clearly that "we have a predator in our midst". There have been no such warnings here.:cow:

With no warnings issued, I'm thinking they MUST have their man, that they are watching him 24/7 and they are going to spring an arrest on him as soon as they are able. I hope so lease:

If not, and if it proved that due to the LE silence in regards to not warning the public, and the killer murders again, then I think public opinion would be that the blood would be on the LE's hands.

MOO

 

[SapphireSteel]

I said the opposite of what you have said.

That's fine, we are allowed to have different opinions.:seeya:

 

[SapphireSteel]

With no warnings issued, I'm thinking they MUST have their man, that they are watching him 24/7 and they are going to spring an arrest on him as soon as they are able. I hope so lease:

If not, and if it proved that due to the LE silence in regards to not warning the public, and the killer murders again, then I think public opinion would be that the blood would be on the LE's hands.

MOO

Me too.

In fact I believe that LE were hinky about this from the very beginning, starting with Abben's mysterious little statement about the bikes.

. Abben said that while the bikes were found on the recreational trail by the lake, "that doesn't tell me (the girls) have been there, just their bikes."

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/ar...-believe-cousins-were-abducted?nclick_check=1

Some are pretty quick to bash LE, especially as they've been so silent, but it wouldn't surprise me one bit if they haven't had their perp all along, and are working to build an airtight case. Experienced police can tell when they have a staged scene, just by looking at it.

Staging seems outlandish but is actually very common. People try to cover their crimes by making them appear as though something else happened. This abduction could have been staged to appear as if a random ducked in off the highway, but there may have been something completely obvious at the scene that we don't know about, that implies staging occurred.

So, if it is staged, it is staged to appear like a random sexually motivated child abduction. It then follows that it is NOT a random sexually motived child abduction, but another crime altogether, made to appear like an abduction by a stranger.

It also follows that LE would be very close mouthed about their suspicions, in case they alert the perp to the line their investigation is taking.

:cow:

 

[chelsea6]

Curious way to do business! No use = no business.

I think the Waterloo Courier is desperate for business, and this is why. I was in Fareway last month, and they had a little card table with papers to fill your name in for a drawing. I think it was a whole year subscription free, I really am not positive. Anyway, they asked me if I wanted a subscription to the paper. I told them I owe them money, I can't get a subscription until I pay it off. They said they don't care and that I don't owe anything, and to sign up for a new subscription. :waitasec: Then I told them I can't pay for a subscription if I did sign up for it, so I'll get it online free. They said that is ending soon, you'll have to pay, then what will you do? I told them, "I get the Wall Street Journal free for a year, I'll just read that." Then they called last week and told me that I didn't win, but just for signing up for the drawing, I get 13 weeks free subscription to the Waterloo Courier. :waitasec: I don't get it.
MOO

 

[otto]

Me too.

In fact I believe that LE were hinky about this from the very beginning, starting with Abben's mysterious little statement about the bikes.

. Abben said that while the bikes were found on the recreational trail by the lake, "that doesn't tell me (the girls) have been there, just their bikes."

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/ar...-believe-cousins-were-abducted?nclick_check=1

Some are pretty quick to bash LE, especially as they've been so silent, but it wouldn't surprise me one bit if they haven't had their perp all along, and are working to build an airtight case. Experienced police can tell when they have a staged scene, just by looking at it.
:cow:

BBM

Clearly Abben, when he made his statement, was unsure whether the bikes, purse and dog alert indicated that the children had been at the lake. Police were still looking for eye witness confirmation that the children were there.

Clearly, he had no idea whether the bikes were staged, or parked at the gate by the children.

 

[chelsea6]

it wouldn't surprise me one bit if they haven't had their perp all along, and are working to build an airtight case. Experienced police can tell when they have a staged scene, just by looking at it.
:cow:

I TOTALLY agree!! :seeya:

 

[hollyblue]

If that is the motive, why then kill them?

I was pondering the thought that the person who did the abducting just sold them for profit.....per se. But if the perp also wanted to sell them himself...repeatedly/prostitute them....things may have gotten too hot in the case via media, etc. Who would be willing to take on being with girls if they were recognized, etc? What if the buyer/user decided to turn the abducter/seller in for the reward?

Hope I'm making sense. LOL

 

[SapphireSteel]

BBM

Clearly Abben, when he made his statement, was unsure whether the bikes, purse and dog alert indicated that the children had been at the lake. Police were still looking for eye witness confirmation that the children were there.

Clearly, he had no idea whether the bikes were staged, or parked at the gate by the children.

We will have to disagree on that one. I think he was dubious, right from the start, and who knows why?

I doubt the concept of staging would even have come up if it wasn't for what he said.

My opinion only.

 

[tlcya]

I think Abben statement was the statement of a man who did not have any facts yet and was not closing his mind or investigation to any possibility, even that of staging.

Also, if staging happened I don't think it necessarily follows that the staging of the bikes would lead LE to think immediately random sexual assault, I think it would lead LE to think the girls might possibly be in the lake, hence the draining of said lake. I do not think it follow that staging = random sexual assault leap.

I do agree that staging is done in many cases and is not unusual, from something minute like taking someone'someones car and dumping it to suggest the victim may have been at that location to leaving evidence behind that suggest someone completely different is reasponsible.

 

[alliemay]

I think LE decided to remain quiet about the case after they were wrong about the girls being alive, based on the fact that there was no evidence of foul play at the lake.....I don't blame them for keeping what they know to themselves.

 

[chelsea6]

I was pondering the thought that the person who did the abducting just sold them for profit.....per se. But if the perp also wanted to sell them himself...repeatedly/prostitute them....things may have gotten too hot in the case via media, etc. Who would be willing to take on being with girls if they were recognized, etc? What if the buyer/user decided to turn the abducter/seller in for the reward?

Hope I'm making sense. LOL

You aren't the only one that has thought about this with this case.. especially in the beginning.

http://www.kwwl.com/story/20025811/special-report

 

[GrainneDhu]

Male/Female couples have abducted girls in the past, so for investigators to admit that they cannot yet identify the gender of the perp does not mean that it is not a sex crime.

I agree.

There was an ongoing sex crime in Missouri that just came to light. A girl who came to the attention of Ed and Marilyn Bagley by dating their son. She was in the foster system due to a history of physical and sexual abuse and is described as mentally impaired. The Bagleys held her prisoner for 8 years, in part by coercing her to sign a contract that purportedly gave Ed Bagley the right to do anything to her; such a contract is not legal but the victim did not have the education and perhaps not the mental ability to understand that.

She was finally rescued when she suffered a cardiac arrest while Ed Bagley was torturing her with electric shocks and smothering her at the same time. The hospital medical personnel were highly concerned and suspicious after they got a look at her assorted bruises and scars. It's a miracle she survived.

Marilyn Bagley struck a plea deal where she pled guilty to assault. Not only did she help her husband keep the victim captive, she participated in torturing and sexually assaulting her.

It is unusual for a woman to be involved in a sexual crime as a perpetrator but it is far from unheard of.

 

[GrainneDhu]

However, we know that IF they had DNA they would know whether the perp was male or female. They may not know WHO the DNA sample belongs to but forensics can tell by DNA whether or not it's male or female's (or both, if more than one DNA sample was recovered).

Now, they may just be playing dumb in the media too as to not set off their perp's to thinking they know ANYTHING...but I am not going to get my hopes up.

Very sad that LE hasn't been able to make an arrest already. It's clearly presenting itself to be a difficult case to prove. IMO

It's also possible that if a woman acted as the initial contact and lure, she may not have left her DNA anywhere. She could have led the girls to where her significant other was waiting and then just left.