CA - Christopher Dorner kills 4 in tri-county rampage, Feb 2013 - #3

[katydid23]

I realize it doesn't make it any better that he only killed cops/cops family members.

But it is psychologically interesting that he did so.

If he had just killed those ladies at that cabin, he may have escaped again. But he didn't do that.
I wish we could know what was going through his head.

It sounds to me like he truly believed that the cops were the problem.
Maybe he really just wasn't willing to take out people who had nothing to do with the cops, even if letting them live got him captured.

I'm not trying to defend him, I'm trying to understand him. That's why I follow these cases.
To try and understand, to try and prevent these things from happening. :twocents:

Those Riverside cops had NOTHING at all to do with him getting fired by LAPD. That San Berdoo Deputy had NOTHING at all to do with Dorner's miserable life.

 

[danzn16]

Every time the reporters knock on his mother's door she calls the cops.
Good for her. Leave all the family members out of it. Just focus on the suspect.

http://ktla.com/live/#axzz2KiuqmhUW

I feel bad for his mother. This must be hard for her watching her sons possible death on TV. Sad reporters are bothering her right now. They are ruthless.

 

[michmi]

HLN said they have removed his body and that he probably shot himself.

I knew he would - there was no way he was going to let the police shoot him or die in a fire.

 

[jjenny]

I knew he would - there was no way he was going to let the police shoot him or die in a fire.

That was a false report. They haven't removed the body, they haven't even found the body.

 

[CHERIE.T]

:tyou:gitana1, EXCELLENT POST.

 

[Seajay]

About Dorner and the fire. I was reading where ppl were questioning how he could kill himself, then set the fire. Hows about, he set the fire, we just didn't see it yet, but he set it, then after he set the fire, he put a bullet in himself, immediately after that, the fire was visable to those outside whereas before he shot himself, it was not? Doesn't that make more sense???

 

[katydid23]

Setting aside the horror of it all...

Thinking objectively and even philosophically, both "sides" have done wrong, IMO...acted hastily, not followed their training, let emotions take control...just food for thought. It's rather ironic, in a really horrible way.

Maybe it is a time for thinking, evaluating, and pondering. And hopefully positive changes will happen. But that will necessitate everyone looking within, rather than pointing fingers at everyone else. KWIM?

Unfortunately I lost my composed post, with bolding of MsFacetious' post about trying to be clear that she's not defending CD's actions (nor am I, not at all). And she/I/(many of us?) are trying to understand the why's and wherefores.

My son has applied to the LAPD. If he gets into the academy, is he automatically on the wrong side of justice? Does he deserve to die because of Dorners perceived injustices?

Saying things like ' BOTH SIDES HAVE DONE WRONG' seem to imply that anyone wearing an LAPD uniform is all part of some united group that is guilty of something.

This killer slaughtered INNOCENT officers. He killed men with young children. So 'what side' were they on? What did that Riverside officer, father of two young kids, have to do with Dorners firing?

What did that beautiful young basketball coach have to do with his misery? She died a brutal needless death. And you imply she was on the wrong 'side' of something? That is really hard to hear. JMO

 

[MsFacetious]

Those Riverside cops had NOTHING at all to do with him getting fired by LAPD. That San Berdoo Deputy had NOTHING at all to do with Dorner's miserable life.

They were cops looking for him. (They did come out and say the Riverside cops WERE looking for him, despite initially saying they weren't.)

He SAID he would also kill any cops who assisted the LAPD. Any cops who came after HIM. That is what he did.

He didn't even end up killing any LAPD officers.

I don't understand why this point is so difficult for people to grasp.
He killed a cops daughter, her cop fiance and two other cops.
He only killed cops and cops family.
That is my only point. He stuck with only killing cops.

He did not kill the boat owner. (This wouldn't have helped him since he didn't get the boat.)
He did not kill the cleaning ladies at the cabin. (IF he had, he may have gotten further without the them calling the cops.)
He did not kill the man he car jacked. (If he had, cops wouldn't have known he switched vehicles.)

 

[Hatfield]

This guy is no cause celebre or martyr for any ethnic group. He's no hero to minorities. He killed two innocent people, a young black man and his Asian fiance, both well loved. The only people rooting for dorner are conspiracy theorists and sociopaths.



Wow. Deeming the LAPD and dorner to be two "sides" to a conflict is like saying Kyron Horman and his step-mother were two sides to a conflict.

You said that both sides have done wrong and acted hastily and forgot their training, etc. Since when is cold-blooded, premeditated murder forgetting one's training and acting "hastily"?

I love you, friend and I;m sure you don't mean to be controversial but come on!

dorner had his day in court. The police followed proper procedures at all times when it came to his allegations of racism and police brutality. I read what they did. At one point he wanted to withdraw his allegations but they couldn't allow that and had to investigate because the allegations were serious and there are procedures to follow.

Ultimately, dorner just wasn't believed and it was found, in fact, that he lied. So how did anything the police do in that regard compare to the calculated, and methodical premeditated murder of innocent human beings?

And the shooting of the newspaper woman? That was an accident that occurred as a result of dorner's behavior. He promised to kill and use all sorts of measures and weaponry to wreak havoc. He kept his promise. Then, as officers guard a target, they see a truck similar to dorner's approaching in the darkness, rolling slowly up with no lights on, a figure emerges from the dark truck and throws something at the home.

I understand how that accident happened. Was it negligence? Was there protocol they failed to follow? Probably. But this isn't two sides to a war. This isn't the actions of one party to a "fight." This was an accident resulting from a reaction to a perceived threat and borne of the desire to protect. It cannot come anywhere close, not in the same universe, to the conduct of dorner, who intended to kill and did carry out his plan to kill, totally innocent people. Four of them. :twocents:

All JMO
Sorry to but in, but I disagree with a portion of what you indicated:

Re BBM
That was no "accident". It is pure NEGLIGENCE of which I am sure LE will be succesfully sued for millions and cost taxpayers those millions.

"probably"??? Really? How about "absolutely".

It is beyond ridiculous that LE would shoot 2 woman with over 20 rounds of fire without even coming close to identifying one of them even being a man, let alone looking like the suspect.

I am outraged by LE behavior as much as I am the crazed cop killer.

There is absolutely no excuse whatsoever for LE to shoot people just because they had a similar vehicle as the suspects.

It is times just like this where LE needs to behave in a professional manner and not let their emotions get the best of them.

There was another incident in NY that was on one of those crime shows where a black person was celebrating at a club where a sting just happened to be going on, and they shot at him over 20 times too. He was unarmed and was not involved in anything the police were doing the sting for.

The Donner person was totally in the wrong and was a murderer who needed to be stopped. But the reactions of LE in the newspaper delivery part was horrible and inexcusable. It is incidents like this that gives ammunition to just the type of thing Donner was claiming about them.

 

[katydid23]

About Dorner and the fire. I was reading where ppl were questioning how he could kill himself, then set the fire. Hows about, he set the fire, we just didn't see it yet, but he set it, then after he set the fire, he put a bullet in himself, immediately after that, the fire was visable to those outside whereas before he shot himself, it was not? Doesn't that make more sense???

I wonder if the fire started because LE sent the gas canisters in. There were probably flammable materials inside, and they may have caught fire. [ like the oxygen maybe?]

Maybe once SWAT made their assault and the fire started, he went ahead and ended it. Also, he may have been shot and then went downstairs to die.

 

[Herding Cats]

I am not going to comment on this tonight. I'm very tired, and my eyes are bothering me, so it's time for bed.

I will wait on confirmation that his body has been removed and positively ID'd, before I feel the relief that wants to come. Not for me; I was not a target. But for all those innocent men and women who were Dorner's targets...relief on their behalf.

And I'll grieve those officers killed in the line of duty - and also grieve those two gorgeous, talented young folks who were killed in Irvine...those two had the world by the tail, and some insane man took their lives...and destroyed the lives of their families.

There is a lot to armchair quarterback. But for now...for now, I go to bed with a prayer for those who were killed, and a prayer for their families; and more prayers for those who have been wounded...may they fully heal, both in body and in spirit.

Best-
Herding Cats

 

[polleypockets]

All JMO
Sorry to but in, but I disagree with a portion of what you indicated:

Re BBM
That was no "accident". It is pure NEGLIGENCE of which I am sure LE will be succesfully sued for millions and cost taxpayers those millions.

"probably"??? Really? How about "absolutely".

It is beyond ridiculous that LE would shoot 2 woman with over 20 rounds of fire without even coming close to identifying one of them even being a man, let alone looking like the suspect.

I am outraged by LE behavior as much as I am the crazed cop killer.

There is absolutely no excuse whatsoever for LE to shoot people just because they had a similar vehicle as the suspects.

It is times just like this where LE needs to behave in a professional manner and not let their emotions get the best of them.

There was another incident in NY that was on one of those crime shows where a black person was celebrating at a club where a sting just happened to be going on, and they shot at him over 20 times too. He was unarmed and was not involved in anything the police were doing the sting for.

The Donner person was totally in the wrong and was a murderer who needed to be stopped. But the reactions of LE in the newspaper delivery part was horrible and inexcusable. It is incidents like this that gives ammunition to just the type of thing Donner was claiming about them.

don' forget about the second mad - skinny white - in a blue truck - w/ a surfboard just hours after the lady delivering newspapers - his truck was rammed by a police car and many rounds shot into his truck - thank god he was not shot

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/feb/09/local/la-me-torrance-shooting-20130210

 

[katydid23]

All JMO
Sorry to but in, but I disagree with a portion of what you indicated:

Re BBM
That was no "accident". It is pure NEGLIGENCE of which I am sure LE will be succesfully sued for millions and cost taxpayers those millions.

"probably"??? Really? How about "absolutely".

It is beyond ridiculous that LE would shoot 2 woman with over 20 rounds of fire without even coming close to identifying one of them even being a man, let alone looking like the suspect.

I am outraged by LE behavior as much as I am the crazed cop killer.

There is absolutely no excuse whatsoever for LE to shoot people just because they had a similar vehicle as the suspects.

It is times just like this where LE needs to behave in a professional manner and not let their emotions get the best of them.

There was another incident in NY that was on one of those crime shows where a black person was celebrating at a club where a sting just happened to be going on, and they shot at him over 20 times too. He was unarmed and was not involved in anything the police were doing the sting for.

The Donner person was totally in the wrong and was a murderer who needed to be stopped. But the reactions of LE in the newspaper delivery part was horrible and inexcusable. It is incidents like this that gives ammunition to just the type of thing Donner was claiming about them.

There is a big difference between the two situations. Dorner was coming from RAGE and HATRED and VENGEANCE. The cops who MISTAKENLY shot those 2 women were not acting with malice. Sure, it was negligent, and tragic and horrible. But it was a MISTAKE. They had just heard about the Irvine killings, and then Corona and the Riverside killings hours previously. And they were trying to protect a sleeping family. You cannot compare an accidental shooting, with officers seeing a suspicious vehicle driving up slowly with no headlights before dawn, to a rage filled revenge killer. JMO

 

[Hatfield]

don' forget about the second mad - skinny white - in a blue truck - w/ a surfboard just hours after the lady delivering newspapers - his truck was rammed by a police car and many rounds shot into his truck - thank god he was not shot

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/feb/09/local/la-me-torrance-shooting-20130210

Thanks. I had not heard about the 2nd incident. Incredible. I can understnd being "on edge", but I can never understand nor should I have to understand LE shooting at people that are not identified as even somewhat resembling even in the slightest the suspect.

 

[katydid23]

They were cops looking for him. (They did come out and say the Riverside cops WERE looking for him, despite initially saying they weren't.)

He SAID he would also kill any cops who assisted the LAPD. Any cops who came after HIM. That is what he did.

He didn't even end up killing any LAPD officers.

I don't understand why this point is so difficult for people to grasp.
He killed a cops daughter, her cop fiance and two other cops.
He only killed cops and cops family.
That is my only point. He stuck with only killing cops.

He did not kill the boat owner. (This wouldn't have helped him since he didn't get the boat.)
He did not kill the cleaning ladies at the cabin. (IF he had, he may have gotten further without the them calling the cops.)
He did not kill the man he car jacked. (If he had, cops wouldn't have known he switched vehicles.)

Oh, he ONLY killed cops and their families. No problem then.

 

[shadowraiths]

But this isn't two sides to a war.

And no one said it was.

Can any good come out of this tragedy? I think so.

Are you familiar with the Ayoob Shootout of 1986? ( link ) Two FBI agents died and 7 others were wounded, in a fire fight against two bank robbers. The result of that tragedy, was to review what went wrong, and how they could change things should they face a similar situation in the future. The resulting training tape is worth watching.

In this instance, we have seven officers who fired on two innocent paper carriers... with bullets hitting neighborhood homes and parked cars...

Imnsho, to simplify it to, "well, they just made a mistake" would be, not only short-sightedly stupid but negligent on their part. Otoh, to examine the incident as, not in faults, rather, psychological, emotional, and tactical dynamics, allows them to objectively consider different potential solutions for future similar situations.

By examining dynamics that led up to this, including the recently shot officers, the manifesto targeting the family these officers were guarding, lighting conditions, and, importantly, the emotional and psychological dynamics, LE may be able to arrive at modified tactics that will keep their officers safe, while also keeping the public safe.

As for the race issues raised in Dorner's manifesto? Regardless of what people think, the race bit is a very real problem within our society. And, arguably, moreso, within the LAPD.

Does this mean that I think dorner was justified for his choices to murder innocents? Of course not. I simply do not see people as only evil or only good. Good people do evil things. Evil people do good things. And all shades of gray between. I condemn Dorner's evil choices. I do not condemn Dorner as a human being.

Otherwise put? Imho, Dorner is no Joseph Duncan.

 

[Indy Anna]

This guy is no cause celebre or martyr for any ethnic group. He's no hero to minorities. He killed two innocent people, a young black man and his Asian fiance, both well loved. The only people rooting for dorner are conspiracy theorists and sociopaths.



Wow. Deeming the LAPD and dorner to be two "sides" to a conflict is like saying Kyron Horman and his step-mother were two sides to a conflict.

You said that both sides have done wrong and acted hastily and forgot their training, etc. Since when is cold-blooded, premeditated murder forgetting one's training and acting "hastily"?

I love you, friend and I;m sure you don't mean to be controversial but come on!

dorner had his day in court. The police followed proper procedures at all times when it came to his allegations of racism and police brutality. I read what they did. At one point he wanted to withdraw his allegations but they couldn't allow that and had to investigate because the allegations were serious and there are procedures to follow.

Ultimately, dorner just wasn't believed and it was found, in fact, that he lied. So how did anything the police do in that regard compare to the calculated, and methodical premeditated murder of innocent human beings?

And the shooting of the newspaper woman? That was an accident that occurred as a result of dorner's behavior. He promised to kill and use all sorts of measures and weaponry to wreak havoc. He kept his promise. Then, as officers guard a target, they see a truck similar to dorner's approaching in the darkness, rolling slowly up with no lights on, a figure emerges from the dark truck and throws something at the home.

I understand how that accident happened. Was it negligence? Was there protocol they failed to follow? Probably. But this isn't two sides to a war. This isn't the actions of one party to a "fight." This was an accident resulting from a reaction to a perceived threat and borne of the desire to protect. It cannot come anywhere close, not in the same universe, to the conduct of dorner, who intended to kill and did carry out his plan to kill, totally innocent people. Four of them. :twocents:

Thank you for your post! I'm grateful for your insight on the LAPD. There's so much negative about them and so many people on other websites "rooting" for Dorner that it's terrifying, which is why I finally stopped reading the comments on news sites and started reading about it here. I was certain I initially heard that no lights were on in the truck LAPD fired upon mistakenly, but wondered if I heard incorrectly because no one else has even mentioned it. I was absolutely frightened for the LAPD and LE in neighboring counties, and anxious for this nightmare to end even though I live nearly at the other end of the country. An attack against the people who risk their lives daily to protect the citizens of our country is an attack on civilized society.

I think I understand what Cazzie was saying, too, and agree with it to an extent. Not that I believe LAPD did anything intentionally wrong. They've made mistakes, yes, but they are human and I think LAPD probably has the most difficult and thankless job of any other police department in the nation. I think the entire force needs to receive the same training as the U.S. army and the warfare they had to fight over the last week is proof. While Dorner may be gone, the comments I've read in support of Dorner the past week is evidence that there is still a threat to the LAPD.

While I was relieved to learn that this nightmare is over, I was so saddened to learn that another LEO lost his life during the gunbattle with Dorner. I have just felt like crying to think about the four valuable lives that were lost and the anguish their family, colleagues and friends are experiencing. How I wish this had ended peacefully, but Dorner wouldn't allow it. I wish, too, that his manifesto hadn't been publicized. I never read it because I didn't want him to have the satisfaction of knowing that people were even interested in what he had to say. I have a background in behavior modification, and from my point of view people were rewarding the man for his deviant behavior by responding to the manifesto.

I hope healing can now begin in L.A.

 

[Hatfield]

There is a big difference between the two situations. Dorner was coming from RAGE and HATRED and VENGEANCE. The cops who MISTAKENLY shot those 2 women were not acting with malice. Sure, it was negligent, and tragic and horrible. But it was a MISTAKE. They had just heard about the Irvine killings, and then Corona and the Riverside killings hours previously. And they were trying to protect a sleeping family. You cannot compare an accidental shooting, with officers seeing a suspicious vehicle driving up slowly with no headlights before dawn, to a rage filled revenge killer. JMO

With all due respect, I am not comparing them at all. They are both wrong in their own ways. I am outraged at both.

Especially the crazed cop killer.

Do you seriously think they were trying to protect the sleeping family? Is that what they said. Or were they really trying to be the hero and the first people to "get the guy", and were just trigger happy. IMO, I think the latter.

 

[Hatfield]

About Dorner and the fire. I was reading where ppl were questioning how he could kill himself, then set the fire. Hows about, he set the fire, we just didn't see it yet, but he set it, then after he set the fire, he put a bullet in himself, immediately after that, the fire was visable to those outside whereas before he shot himself, it was not? Doesn't that make more sense???

I agree and think that is what happened. He was said to have set his truck on fire. So I can see him starting this fire too right before he shot himself.

 

[Voice4theSilent]

I think it is going to come out that he shot himself (the single shot that was heard) directly before LE intentionally started a fire in the structure. I do not believe that the earlier reports of a sniper killing him are accurate. I have nothing but respect and admiration for the men and women of LE who brought this nightmare to an end.