CA - Christopher Dorner kills 4 in tri-county rampage, Feb 2013 - #3

Status
Not open for further replies.
They were cops looking for him. (They did come out and say the Riverside cops WERE looking for him, despite initially saying they weren't.)

He SAID he would also kill any cops who assisted the LAPD. Any cops who came after HIM. That is what he did.

He didn't even end up killing any LAPD officers.

I don't understand why this point is so difficult for people to grasp.
He killed a cops daughter, her cop fiance and two other cops.
He only killed cops and cops family.
That is my only point. He stuck with only killing cops.

He did not kill the boat owner. (This wouldn't have helped him since he didn't get the boat.)
He did not kill the cleaning ladies at the cabin. (IF he had, he may have gotten further without the them calling the cops.)
He did not kill the man he car jacked. (If he had, cops wouldn't have known he switched vehicles.)
And this is wrong when people sympathize with a deranged murderer because he killed "only" LEO's and their families. He could have helped an elderly woman across a busy street, and he still would not be a hero in my book. He appointed himself a judge by deciding whose lives to spare and whose to take. The riverside officers were not doing wrong by looking for a murderer.
 
With all due respect, I am not comparing them at all. They are both wrong in their own ways. I am outraged at both.

Especially the crazed cop killer.

Do you seriously think they were trying to protect the sleeping family? Is that what they said. Or were they really trying to be the hero and the first people to "get the guy", and were just trigger happy. IMO, I think the latter.

They were sitting undercover at that house, to PROTECT a family sleeping inside. They were not trying to be heroes. They saw a truck, of the same general description, driving up to the home with the headlights off, and a figure got out and threw something at the home, and so the cops opened fire, MISTAKENLY believing the family was in danger.

The cops blew it. No doubt. But I really don't think many people understand the stress level that a cop on the LAPD goes through on a daily basis. A high percentage of them 'eat their own guns' as they call it. My son's background investigator asked his fiance to read a specific book about the high failure rate of cops marriages just to educate her.

I am sure these cops will be severely demoted if not fired. And it makes me sad because it was not from malice but from a perfect storm of stressful circumstances.JMO
 
I think it is going to come out that he shot himself (the single shot that was heard) directly before LE intentionally started a fire in the structure. I do not believe that the earlier reports of a sniper killing him are accurate. I have nothing but respect and admiration for the men and women of LE who brought this nightmare to an end.

I just hope they actually find the body.
 
With all due respect, I am not comparing them at all. They are both wrong in their own ways. I am outraged at both.

Especially the crazed cop killer.

Do you seriously think they were trying to protect the sleeping family? Is that what they said. Or were they really trying to be the hero and the first people to "get the guy", and were just trigger happy. IMO, I think the latter.

Yeah, I think they were guarding the family. They are already heroes by virtue of being first responders. The ones who run towards danger instead of away from it. A mad man who wanted to be a hero had made threats against practically everyone in the state, killed a young girl and her boyfriend in cold blood, then reportedly called her father to taunt him. I have no respect for him at all and no sympathy. He is a mass killer; I'm not really into those. I don't believe in the death penalty, and the people he killed certainly did nothing to earn it.

They made a bad mistake there with the paper ladies. I am not sure what the proper protocol would have been but I believe they did mess up there.
 
They were cops looking for him. (They did come out and say the Riverside cops WERE looking for him, despite initially saying they weren't.)

He SAID he would also kill any cops who assisted the LAPD. Any cops who came after HIM. That is what he did.

He didn't even end up killing any LAPD officers.

I don't understand why this point is so difficult for people to grasp.
He killed a cops daughter, her cop fiance and two other cops.
He only killed cops and cops family.
That is my only point. He stuck with only killing cops.

He did not kill the boat owner. (This wouldn't have helped him since he didn't get the boat.)
He did not kill the cleaning ladies at the cabin. (IF he had, he may have gotten further without the them calling the cops.)
He did not kill the man he car jacked. (If he had, cops wouldn't have known he switched vehicles.)

He could have gotten farther if he didn't torch his truck too though. He was so delusional I don't think we can ascribe much sense to his actions, much less a code that means anything, other than being another part of his delusions.

All his bluster about his prowess and asymmetrical warfare...and he seems to not even have had an escape planned from that area.
 
Sounds like his truck really did break and then he had nowhere to go.
 
I just hope they actually find the body.

It brought back bad memories of watching the Branch Davidians burn in Waco. I hope they do, too. (find him)

Horace Finklestein said "He could have gotten farther if he didn't torch his truck too though. He was so delusional I don't think we can ascribe much sense to his actions, much less a code that means anything, other than being another part of his delusions.

All his bluster about his prowess and asymmetrical warfare...and he seems to not even have had an escape planned from that area. "


Yeas that turned out to be a whole lot of nothing, didn't it.
 
I just hope they actually find the body.

They will. Or enough of one to make a positive ID. He ran into that building and at no time did he leave. LE had eyes on every inch of that place and a single gun shot was heard from inside right before the fire (the large fire that destroyed the cabin) began.
 
They ripped the side of the cabin off, so somebody is going to be upset. They all heard a shot so somebody was inside. I think that because the family wasn't notified the media had to all retract their stories. This is becoming a regular occurrence with the media. They use to wait for the facts before reporting the story. Now they just report hearsay.
 
This is just an observation I had recently with many news stories including wars overseas. I think a lot of people do not understand the amount of real pain and suffering and healing that occurs when someone is wounded.

When the news stories make a huge big deal over shooting deaths, but seem to brush over wounded people. Even in the recent story, I just heard tonight about one of the wounded cops, and the news always adds something like "but he is expected to survive" like he is OK now and will be fine.

There is tremendous pain and suffering and healing that has to happen for any wounded person. Some wounded people are never the same.

It is just sad to me the way the news just brushes off wounded people like they will be fine. Some may never be fine again.
 
All JMO
Sorry to but in, but I disagree with a portion of what you indicated:

Re BBM
That was no "accident". It is pure NEGLIGENCE of which I am sure LE will be succesfully sued for millions and cost taxpayers those millions.

"probably"??? Really? How about "absolutely".

It is beyond ridiculous that LE would shoot 2 woman with over 20 rounds of fire without even coming close to identifying one of them even being a man, let alone looking like the suspect.

I am outraged by LE behavior as much as I am the crazed cop killer.

There is absolutely no excuse whatsoever for LE to shoot people just because they had a similar vehicle as the suspects.

It is times just like this where LE needs to behave in a professional manner and not let their emotions get the best of them.

There was another incident in NY that was on one of those crime shows where aH black person was celebrating at a club where a sting just happened to be going on, and they shot at him over 20 times too. He was unarmed and was not involved in anything the police were doing the sting for.

The Donner person was totally in the wrong and was a murderer who needed to be stopped. But the reactions of LE in the newspaper delivery part was horrible and inexcusable. It is incidents like this that gives ammunition to just the type of thing Donner was claiming about them.

If you read my posts you'll see I am well aware of racism. I also have been a committed and serious protestor of police brutality. I don't just talk about it. I actually do something about it like stand on street corners every week for hours demanding accountability.

I don't buy dorner as a martyr for any cause. I don't think he has one. I think he created stories to justify his narcissistic rage.

The reason I say "probably" is because the law of negligence can be Murkier than you'd think. Also, I don't know if they had protocols in place for the situation that morning with the poor newspaper lady. If it had been dorner, a moments hesitation could have spelled death.

Im sorry you feel the same level of outrage towards police officers who didn't kill anyone and who didn't premeditate revenge killings, as you do toward a guy who did. Our laws reflect that society as a whole views them vastly differently.

And no one said it was.

Can any good come out of this tragedy? I think so.

Are you familiar with the Ayoob Shootout of 1986? ( link ) Two FBI agents died and 7 others were wounded, in a fire fight against two bank robbers. The result of that tragedy, was to review what went wrong, and how they could change things should they face a similar situation in the future. The resulting training tape is worth watching.

In this instance, we have seven officers who fired on two innocent paper carriers... with bullets hitting neighborhood homes and parked cars...

Imnsho, to simplify it to, "well, they just made a mi
stake
" would be, not only short-sightedly stupid but negligent on their part. Otoh, to examine the incident as, not in faults, rather, psychological, emotional, and tactical dynamics, allows them to objectively consider different potential solutions for future similar situations.

By examining dynamics that led up to this, including the recently shot officers, the manifesto targeting the family these officers were guarding, lighting conditions, and, importantly, the emotional and psychological dynamics, LE may be able to arrive at modified tactics that will keep their officers safe, while also keeping the public safe.

As for the race issues raised in Dorner's manifesto? Regardless of what people think, the race bit is a very real problem within our society. And, arguably, moreso, within the LAPD.

Does this mean that I think dorner was justified for his choices to murder innocents? Of course not. I simply do not see people as only evil or only good. Good people do evil things. Evil people do good things. And all shades of gray between. I condemn Dorner's evil choices. I do not condemn Dorner as a human being.

Otherwise put? Imho, Dorner is no Joseph Duncan.

I agree that there is something to learn. Absolutely. If there are no protocols in place to prevent innocent people from getting killed by cops, maybe this will change that.

Cazzies post stating these were two different Sides that both did wrong invites the implication that they were two sides of a war. IMO.

I'm the wrong person to educate about racism in the LAPD. I am well aware. I am also an activist against both racism and police brutality (among other things). I have been heavily involved in various groups and campaigns. Except for the Kelly Thomas thread, I keep my activism pretty quiet on Websleuths. But, there it is.

I don't see dorner as too far off from Duncan. He wasn't fighting a cause unless the cause was his narcissistic sense of entitlement.
 
Oh, he ONLY killed cops and their families. No problem then.

WHY does everyone keep saying that in response to my posts? :please:
I NEVER said that it was no problem since it was all cops.
I NEVER sympathized with him OR called him a hero!



I watched them move the Deputy's body from the hospital and CRIED as I watched it.
I'm not a heartless witch who doesn't care about the cops. I am simply trying to understand this man's actions!

Obviously I am not explaining myself clearly because everyone seems to think I'm just supporting a cop killer. :what:


This is like when someone says "Wow, that serial killer only killed women... he didn't kill their children who were witnesses."

I am saying "Wow, he only killed the cops/relatives. He didn't kill the people who got in his way, unless they were law enforcement."


It's an observation that goes to his frame of mind, which I would like to understand. I don't grasp why that is such a bad thing.

I also find it interesting he was CALM when he carjacked that guy. He was running from the cops, crashed a stolen car and was still CALM.

Just talking about how horrible he was, won't prevent it from happening again. I am here to try and understand.
 
All JMO
Sorry to but in, but I disagree with a portion of what you indicated:

Re BBM
That was no "accident". It is pure NEGLIGENCE of which I am sure LE will be succesfully sued for millions and cost taxpayers those millions.

"probably"??? Really? How about "absolutely".

It is beyond ridiculous that LE would shoot 2 woman with over 20 rounds of fire without even coming close to identifying one of them even being a man, let alone looking like the suspect.

I am outraged by LE behavior as much as I am the crazed cop killer.

There is absolutely no excuse whatsoever for LE to shoot people just because they had a similar vehicle as the suspects.

It is times just like this where LE needs to behave in a professional manner and not let their emotions get the best of them.

There was another incident in NY that was on one of those crime shows where a black person was celebrating at a club where a sting just happened to be going on, and they shot at him over 20 times too. He was unarmed and was not involved in anything the police were doing the sting for.

The Donner person was totally in the wrong and was a murderer who needed to be stopped. But the reactions of LE in the newspaper delivery part was horrible and inexcusable. It is incidents like this that gives ammunition to just the type of thing Donner was claiming about them.
So this was a live or taped incident at the club? You witnessed everything that happened? Maybe the officer wasn't justified in his reaction, but the incident would've been automatically investigated by the department. That is the police department's job. The officer may have lost his job if it was determined he used unnecessary force. That does happen. But it is inexcusable for people to claim that one incident, that we don't have all of the facts about, is "ammunition" to revolt against an entire police department or law enforcement in general.

Are you sure Dorner's claims were legitimate? Are you in a position to make that decision? IMO, Dorner's actions can never be justified. If his gripe about the LAPD were legitimate, why didn't he continue his fight in the courts, all the way to the Supreme Court, if necessary like a mature, dignified, intelligent, and logical human being?
 
He could have gotten farther if he didn't torch his truck too though. He was so delusional I don't think we can ascribe much sense to his actions, much less a code that means anything, other than being another part of his delusions.

All his bluster about his prowess and asymmetrical warfare...and he seems to not even have had an escape planned from that area.

I was completely convinced he torched his truck to distract LE as he hid out somewhere off of that mountain. It would appear that I gave him too much credit (I tend to do that a lot.) Come to find out, more than likely, he torched it because he wanted attention drawn to him instead of away from him. A friend tried to tell me he was a mastermind and extremely intelligent; I countered her statement by (more accurately) stating he was a man with powerful ammo and good aim.
 
There is a big difference between the two situations. Dorner was coming from RAGE and HATRED and VENGEANCE. The cops who MISTAKENLY shot those 2 women were not acting with malice. Sure, it was negligent, and tragic and horrible. But it was a MISTAKE. They had just heard about the Irvine killings, and then Corona and the Riverside killings hours previously. And they were trying to protect a sleeping family. You cannot compare an accidental shooting, with officers seeing a suspicious vehicle driving up slowly with no headlights before dawn, to a rage filled revenge killer. JMO

here is a compete time line of all the events (minus the mistaken identities)

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/local/inland_empire&id=8984280

the mistaken identities were both in torrance (LAPD jurisdiction) the first encounter w/ dorner and police in corona was at 1:30 am - this is at least an hour away from torrance - the ambush on the riverside police was after 2am - riverside is in the opposite direction from torrance, at least another 30 mins away so he was going east (torrance is west) at least 1 1/2 hours away w/ out traffic and we actually have a lot of traffic on the 60 frwy starting around by 4am on weekdays - and neither incidents were not by the freeway - and w/ all the lights it takes forever to get thru torrance, so that adds a lot of time

here is a map - so you can see the distance

Screenshot2013-02-12at103056PM_zps7fc85556.png


so around 3am dorner last seen traveling east on the 60 freeway (away from torrance) and the first mistaken id was around 5am - the second shortly afterwards - so they were 2 hours away from the last sighting and in the opposite direction that dorner was reported to go :waitasec:
 
I was completely convinced he torched his truck to distract LE as he hid out somewhere off of that mountain. It would appear that I gave him too much credit (I tend to do that a lot.) Come to find out, more than likely, he torched it because he wanted attention drawn to him instead of away from him. A friend tried to tell me he was a mastermind and extremely intelligent; I countered her statement by (more accurately) stating he was a man with powerful ammo and good aim.

Yeah I just think if he were really that diabolical he wouldn't be bragging about it. Interspersing his bragadocious claims with lament over missing Shark Week and concern over whether or not Hangover IV will be made didn't inspire fear imo.

He had some training and he memorized a lot of military jargon but it doesn't seem like he was anything exceptional. He had to break into a house for Heaven's sake. From his manifesto you'd think he would be living in the woods eating grubs and catching fish like a survivalist or something.
 
here is a compete time line of all the events (minus the mistaken identities)

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/local/inland_empire&id=8984280

the mistaken identities were both in torrance (LAPD jurisdiction) the first encounter w/ dorner and police in corona was at 1:30 am - this is at least an hour away from torrance - the ambush on the riverside police was after 2am - riverside is in the opposite direction from torrance, at least another 30 mins away so he was going east (torrance is west) at least 1 1/2 hours away w/ out traffic and we actually have a lot of traffic on the 60 frwy starting around by 4am on weekdays - and neither incidents were not by the freeway - and w/ all the lights it takes forever to get thru torrance, so that adds a lot of time

here is a map - so you can see the distance

Screenshot2013-02-12at103056PM_zps7fc85556.png


so around 3am dorner last seen traveling east on the 60 freeway (away from torrance) and the first mistaken id was around 5am - the second shortly afterwards - so they were 2 hours away from the last sighting and in the opposite direction that dorner was reported to go :waitasec:

At 2am I could get from Riverside (over in the Arlington area of the shootings) to Torrance in an hour EASY. I don't know if I follow where you were going with that though?
 
So this was a live or taped incident at the club? You witnessed everything that happened? Maybe the officer wasn't justified in his reaction, but the incident would've been automatically investigated by the department. That is the police department's job. The officer may have lost his job if it was determined he used unnecessary force. That does happen. But it is inexcusable for people to claim that one incident, that we don't have all of the facts about, is "ammunition" to revolt against an entire police department or law enforcement in general.

Are you sure Dorner's claims were legitimate? Are you in a position to make that decision? IMO, Dorner's actions can never be justified. If his gripe about the LAPD were legitimate, why didn't he continue his fight in the courts, all the way to the Supreme Court, if necessary like a mature, dignified, intelligent, and logical human being?

here is the story she is talking about
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_Bell_shooting_incident"]Sean Bell shooting incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
 
I just hope they actually find the body.

As do I. Chloie and Gage's case has made me wonder... :please:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=185812"]TN TN - AA: Chloie Leverette, 9, & Gage Daniel, 7, Unionville, 23 Sept 2012 - house fire - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

This is just an observation I had recently with many news stories including wars overseas. I think a lot of people do not understand the amount of real pain and suffering and healing that occurs when someone is wounded.

When the news stories make a huge big deal over shooting deaths, but seem to brush over wounded people. Even in the recent story, I just heard tonight about one of the wounded cops, and the news always adds something like "but he is expected to survive" like he is OK now and will be fine.

There is tremendous pain and suffering and healing that has to happen for any wounded person. Some wounded people are never the same.

It is just sad to me the way the news just brushes off wounded people like they will be fine. Some may never be fine again.

I do grasp this... but I'd like to point out that in THIS case it was the boss of the injured deputy who said this.
It was that officer who came out and said: We had one deputy who was injured and is in surgery, but he should be fine. (Close to that.)

The media is only repeating what the officer told them. :twocents:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
158
Guests online
3,406
Total visitors
3,564

Forum statistics

Threads
592,597
Messages
17,971,589
Members
228,839
Latest member
Shimona
Back
Top