Amanda Knox New Motivation Report RE: Meredith Kercher Murder #1 *new trial ordered*

[Ebbiguise]

We know that she was murdered some time between 9 PM and midnight. Stomach contents cannot help narrow down that time frame, because stomach contents are the most unreliable method for determining time of death.

Guede`s timeline would probably help narrow down the time of death. He went clubbing after midnight. Before that, he ran home to change. Before that, he murdered Meredith. Wouldn`t that place the time of death around 11:30.

I guess you are not understanding the irrefutable science that can be used in this.

She had a full stomach consistent of the meal other witnesses ate along with her.

The autopsy revealed this.

It also revealed that she had nothing in her duodenum which is the part after the stomach where your food begins to slowly be broken down into.

To completely empty a meal FROM the stomach it can take anywhere from 3-5 hours. This is simply to empty FROM THE STOMACH.

http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/digestion/basics/transit.html

I am capitalizing that for effect and hoping you will actually attempt to understand this point.

After it is moving from the stomach and into the small intesting the first part is called the duodenum.

The autopsy revealed NOTHING in her duodenum.

So it takes 3-5 hours to completely empty the stomach while it is slowly being moved into the duodenum.

While in the duodenum (remember hers was completely empty) it is a process that takes another 2-6 hours. the small intestine is pretty damn long.

So do the math, does this tell you anything about having a completely empty duodenum and full stomach?

 

[Ebbiguise]

Food stays minutes in the duodenum, not hours. The link I gave shows a total stomach emptying time for a solid meal of just 2 hours.

This is completely false and the total stomach emptying time you are giving is wrong. it can vary wildly but to reach a total emptying of the stomach after a solid meal, 2 hours would be a very quick time.

I suggest you look at the very site you just sourced on this page and the timelines on it.

http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/digestion/basics/transit.html

next, go google a little about times in the duodenum. saying food only stays here minutes is just completely wrong but by all means I would like you to source this if u want to continue saying that or believe it

 

[sherlockh]

This is completely false and the total stomach emptying time you are giving is wrong. it can vary wildly but to reach a total emptying of the stomach after a solid meal, 2 hours would be a very quick time.

I suggest you look at the very site you just sourced on this page and the timelines on it.

http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/digestion/basics/transit.html

next, go google a little about times in the duodenum. saying food only stays here minutes is just completely wrong but by all means I would like you to source this if u want to continue saying that or believe it

Yes, it nowhere says that food stays hours in the duodenum. Please cite your sources on that. And as I said the important thing to understand is the gastric delaying time. Around 30 Minutes for a solid meal. Not even close to 3 hours.

 

[Malkmus]

How could Knox know that a knife was used.

This is where everyone was positioned when the door was opened. Knox and Sollecito left the house without passing by the bedroom. No one should have known that a knife was used and no one should have known that she bled to death (since she was covered with a duvet).

Otto, as has been mentioned here several times before, Knox knew Meredith bled to death because she got a ride to the police station with the guy who broke the door down and saw her body under the duvet in a pool of blood. In fact, I believe that when she asked if a knife was used, one of the boys joked sarcastically that she was killed with a loaf of bread or something, his point being that obviously she was killed with a knife. I'll have to search for that again.

ETA: Sorry, it was Raf who asked the question, not Amanda.

Shortly after 3 p.m., Napoleoni asked Meredith’s flatmates and their boyfriends to go to the police station for questioning. She asked Luca to drive Amanda and Raffaele there. As they skirted the city centre, Raffaele asked Luca bluntly: ‘Is she dead?’ ‘Yes,’ Luca said. He was surprised that Raffaele hadn’t worked it out for himself. It seemed obvious to him given that the forensic police were there, that no ambulance had come to take anyone away. ‘How did the girl die?’ Raffaele then asked. ‘Well, from what I heard they cut her throat,’ Luca said.

‘But with a knife?’ Raffaele asked again. Luca, irritated by the question, replied curtly: ‘Yes.’ Luca thought to himself: ‘What did Raffaele think? That Meredith’s throat had been cut with a piece of bread?’ It had to be a sharp weapon, a knife or a sword or something. He thought that perhaps Raffaele was in shock, and that was why he was asking stupid questions. Amanda, head bowed, made a brief sound as if she was crying. They drove the rest of the way in silence.

Follain, John (2012-08-21). A Death in Italy: The Definitive Account of the Amanda Knox Case (Kindle Locations 1152-1156). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

 

[Footwarrior]

We know that she was murdered some time between 9 PM and midnight. Stomach contents cannot help narrow down that time frame, because stomach contents are the most unreliable method for determining time of death.

Guede`s timeline would probably help narrow down the time of death. He went clubbing after midnight. Before that, he ran home to change. Before that, he murdered Meredith. Wouldn`t that place the time of death around 11:30.

The prosecutions time of death is based on a body temperature measurement made over 24 hours after the murder. The actual error bounds when you do it that late are much higher than the three hour window given.

It's also ignores the witness reports from the people in the broken down directly across from the cottage. Does it seem reasonable that Meredith sat in the dark, still wearing the clothes she walked home in for a couple of hours before she was murdered? Or that she didn't bother during all this time to take her wet clothes out of the washer and hang them up? Or take out the history book she had borrowed so she could study that night.

There is also the matter of the cell phone evidence. At 8:56 pm, Meredith's UK phone made an attempt to call her mother, but didn't get a connection to the cell network. This would have been almost immediately after leaving her friend Sophie, but at that time she would have ben walking down a narrow alley that doesn't look like a good spot for cell phones. Well after she would have arrived home, this same phone made two calls that didn't complete properly. One at 9:58 pm and 10 pm. The prosecution claimed she was just playing with the buttons on her phone. It's more reasonable to believe that by this time, the phones were in the hands of someone they didn't belong to, most likely Rudy Guede. 13 minutes later, there was another phone connection. A notification of a picture message received via a cell tower that didn't really cover the cottage, but did have good coverage of the park area on the outside of the city walls. The park right across the street from the villa garden where the phones were found.

 

[otto]

This is completely false and the total stomach emptying time you are giving is wrong. it can vary wildly but to reach a total emptying of the stomach after a solid meal, 2 hours would be a very quick time.

I suggest you look at the very site you just sourced on this page and the timelines on it.

http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/digestion/basics/transit.html

next, go google a little about times in the duodenum. saying food only stays here minutes is just completely wrong but by all means I would like you to source this if u want to continue saying that or believe it

"Such grasping at straws would be part of the medical expert testimony when all else fails."

http://books.google.ca/books?id=ahb...AEwBQ#v=onepage&q="stomach contents" &f=false

 

[otto]

Otto, as has been mentioned here several times before, Knox knew Meredith bled to death because she got a ride to the police station with the guy who broke the door down and saw her body under the duvet in a pool of blood. In fact, I believe that when she asked if a knife was used, one of the boys joked sarcastically that she was killed with a loaf of bread or something, his point being that obviously she was killed with a knife. I'll have to search for that again.

ETA: Sorry, it was Raf who asked the question, not Amanda.

Was that the couple that searched their vehicle after dropping Knox and Sollecito off at the police department because they wondered if the pair had ditched a knife in their car.

 

[Ebbiguise]

Yes, it nowhere says that food stays hours in the duodenum. Please cite your sources on that. And as I said the important thing to understand is the gastric delaying time. Around 30 Minutes for a solid meal. Not even close to 3 hours.

I understand the gastric delaying part. Do you understand that this can also wildly vary between a range of factors?

That is part of the problem with this and the trouble I am having with it, because in order for a second meal theory to work, it would mean that her entire stomach and small intestines from the first meal would have passed....something your own reference seems to say is highly unlikely if not completely impossible. What is possible is a very late gastric delaying time.

So here is just one on duodenum but if you are not happy with it we could probably cite some more

http://www.sciencelearn.org.nz/Contexts/Digestion-Chemistry/Timeline

Now where is yours saying it takes minutes to pass through the duodenum?

Again, your own source at the bottom shows the timelines.

http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/digestion/basics/transit.html

It says clearly in the chart at the bottom it takes can take 4-5 hours to completely empty the stomach.

Below this it says 2.5 - 3 hours for a 50% emptying of the small intestines.

Obviously the duodenum is only the first part of the small intestines, but the way in which the stomach slowly releases food into this part, while it slowly then moves it from this part into the other means that there is a rather long period of time in which you will find something in the duodenum.

 

[otto]

I understand the gastric delaying part. Do you understand that this can also wildly vary between a range of factors?

That is part of the problem with this and the trouble I am having with it, because in order for a second meal theory to work, it would mean that her entire stomach and small intestines from the first meal would have passed....something your own reference seems to say is highly unlikely if not completely impossible. What is possible is a very late gastric delaying time.

So here is just one on duodenum but if you are not happy with it we could probably cite some more

http://www.sciencelearn.org.nz/Contexts/Digestion-Chemistry/Timeline

Now where is yours saying it takes minutes to pass through the duodenum?

Again, your own source at the bottom shows the timelines.

http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/digestion/basics/transit.html

It says clearly in the chart at the bottom it takes can take 4-5 hours to completely empty the stomach.

Below this it says 2.5 - 3 hours for a 50% emptying of the small intestines.

Obviously the duodenum is only the first part of the small intestines, but the way in which the stomach slowly releases food into this part, while it slowly then moves it from this part into the other means that there is a rather long period of time in which you will find something in the duodenum.

It says everywhere that stomach contents cannot help in determining the time of death because it is, plain and simple, unreliable. The falacy in the entire discussion is the premise that stomach contents are reliable in determining time of death. If that false premise is assumed, then all sorts of false conclusions will be drawn.

 

[Malkmus]

Was that the couple that searched their vehicle after dropping Knox and Sollecito off at the police department because they wondered if the pair had ditched a knife in their car.

In light of everything we know now, I wonder how true that story was. But yes, that's the same couple. I hope this is the last time we hear someone ask how on earth Amanda could know that Meredith bled to death, though I won't hold my breath.

 

[otto]

In light of everything we know now, I wonder how true that story was. But yes, that's the same couple. I hope this is the last time we hear someone ask how on earth Amanda could know that Meredith bled to death, though I won't hold my breath.

It`s unlikely that half of the statement is true and the other half is false.

 

[sherlockh]

I understand the gastric delaying part. Do you understand that this can also wildly vary between a range of factors?

That is part of the problem with this and the trouble I am having with it, because in order for a second meal theory to work, it would mean that her entire stomach and small intestines from the first meal would have passed....something your own reference seems to say is highly unlikely if not completely impossible. What is possible is a very late gastric delaying time.

So here is just one on duodenum but if you are not happy with it we could probably cite some more

http://www.sciencelearn.org.nz/Contexts/Digestion-Chemistry/Timeline

Now where is yours saying it takes minutes to pass through the duodenum?

Again, your own source at the bottom shows the timelines.

http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/digestion/basics/transit.html

It says clearly in the chart at the bottom it takes can take 4-5 hours to completely empty the stomach.

Below this it says 2.5 - 3 hours for a 50% emptying of the small intestines.

Obviously the duodenum is only the first part of the small intestines, but the way in which the stomach slowly releases food into this part, while it slowly then moves it from this part into the other means that there is a rather long period of time in which you will find something in the duodenum.

Your link does not say anything about the time food stays in the duodenum. It is not only the first part of the intestines, it is also a very small part and therefore it only makes sense that it doesn't stay there very long. You seem to be confused with the total emptying time including the small intestines. The small intestines were not empty. There was still food in there. It was just the duodenum that was empty.

The gastric delaying part does not vary a lot at all. We are talking about the very first bite of food Meredith took. The total stomach emptying time does vary much more, therefore you can't say much about the TOD based on that. The gastric delaying time for the very first bite of food Meredith took is what matters and half an hour is what the science shows as normal. For obvious reasons the theory desperately tries to force it to 3 hours but then how in the world can you still call this proof?

 

[Perodicticus potto]

"Such grasping at straws would be part of the medical expert testimony when all else fails."

http://books.google.ca/books?id=ahb...AEwBQ#v=onepage&q="stomach contents" &f=false

If I'm reading this correctly, it's referring to the state of digestion of food within the stomach. Not the transit of food from one part of the digestive system to another.

 

[Malkmus]

It`s unlikely that half of the statement is true and the other half is false.

And if it's true that they searched the car, what difference does that make one way or the other? The bigger issue, since it was a talking point for many arguing her guilt, is that Meredith bleeding to death was not something only the police on the scene knew.

 

[Footwarrior]

If I'm reading this correctly, it's referring to the state of digestion of food within the stomach. Not the transit of food from one part of the digestive system to another.

You are correct. My point was about the normal range of time it takes for food to start to pass into the duodenum from the stomach. When Meredith died, that process had not yet started. This puts an upper limit of about 3 hours on how long it could have been after her 6:30 meal when she was attacked.

 

[otto]

If I'm reading this correctly, it's referring to the state of digestion of food within the stomach. Not the transit of food from one part of the digestive system to another.

It pretty much says that stomach contents has long been known to be completely unreliable in determining time of death. It doesn`t say that stomach contents is unreliable in determining time of death only when applied to the Nicole Simpson murder, only when argued by medical experts, or only when the stomach contents are a particular stage of digestion. It refers directly to using what someone ate as a method of concluding the time of death. It has long been known to be completely unreliable in determining time of death.

That has not changed since the Nicole Simpson murder trial.

 

[otto]

And if it's true that they searched the car, what difference does that make one way or the other? The bigger issue, since it was a talking point for many arguing her guilt, is that Meredith bleeding to death was not something only the police on the scene knew.

I think the bigger issue is that innocent bystanders at the scene immediately noticed that Knox and Sollecito were acting in a suspicious manner.

 

[Ebbiguise]

You are correct. My point was about the normal range of time it takes for food to start to pass into the duodenum from the stomach. When Meredith died, that process had not yet started. This puts an upper limit of about 3 hours on how long it could have been after her 6:30 meal when she was attacked.

As sherlock just pointed out as we are discussing this, gastric emptying into the stomach very slowly begins at about 20-30 minutes. As you know, this means digestion from the stomach into the next part which is the duodenum begins. This is my problem with all of this, as in either scenario of early death or later death + an extra meal, it is strange there is nothing in hers.

http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/digestion/stomach/emptying.html
After consuming a typical solid meal, there is a lag time of 20 to 30 minutes in which there is minimal gastric emptying. This is followed by a phase in which the rate of emptying is roughly linear

What are your thoughts on this?

 

[Malkmus]

I think the bigger issue is that innocent bystanders at the scene immediately noticed that Knox and Sollecito were acting in a suspicious manner.

Of course you do now. Your previous talking point turned out to be completely false.

 

[Ebbiguise]

Your link does not say anything about the time food stays in the duodenum. It is not only the first part of the intestines, it is also a very small part and therefore it only makes sense that it doesn't stay there very long. You seem to be confused with the total emptying time including the small intestines. The small intestines were not empty. There was still food in there. It was just the duodenum that was empty.

The gastric delaying part does not vary a lot at all. We are talking about the very first bite of food Meredith took. The total stomach emptying time does vary much more, therefore you can't say much about the TOD based on that. The gastric delaying time for the very first bite of food Meredith took is what matters and half an hour is what the science shows as normal. For obvious reasons the theory desperately tries to force it to 3 hours but then how in the world can you still call this proof?

To be clear, it says 3-5 hours upon entering the duodenum and exiting the ileum. This only leaves one other step/part it passes inbetween.

The total process of the small intestine takes 3-5 hours to pass food.

I highly doubt the duodenum only makes up "a few minutes" of this process (out of 3) as you claim, and you have sourced nothing to back this up.

So my questions are, did they find food in the other parts of her small intestine besides the duodenum and was there anything specifically noted about it location wise (which phase) or volume or anything?

is it scientifically impossible to have a lapsed time of 2-3 hours before gastric emptying begins?