Madeleine McCann general discussion thread #28

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Maybe we should get one of our professional fellow posters to chime in on the discussion. I think Sarx and Oriah are handlers if I'm not mistaken. I'll go check to see if they can help us understand.

There is a thread where this was explained.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - the cadaver dog

 

[Captain_Khan]

Sorry, I see it differently. It looks to me that the dog is done and moving on to the next car and is called back. There is the point that he is excited but that to me seems on cue with handler.

But it's doing the exact thing that Grime says indicates that the dog has caught the scent. It's practically staring at the ceiling!

Once again, I have no training whatsoever with sniffer dogs. However, the very fact that this video was freely distributed to the public and faced no criticism from the media or the police suggests to me that Grime did everything a handler should do in that situation. Don't forget a video like this would likely draw the attention of people who work directly with dogs - the people who would have the real knowledge to dismiss his methods if they believed they would yield inaccurate results.

 

[gord]

Blood does not equal DNA. Human beings leave trace amounts of their DNA wherever they go, but they do not tend to leave blood behind.

When the dog finds blood, further investigation is required to determine just whose blood it is. As I understand it, McCann DNA was found in the areas the dog alerted.

No they found DNA that could have been up to 5 different people including the parents twins and perhaps two unknown others. They couldn't even distinguish what type of DNA ie saliva blood etc. To say they found mcanns DNA is not accurate

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[Captain_Khan]

And? There was no further investigation?

I don't understand what you are asking me here.

 

[taotoo]

His livelihood was based on the fact that he was a member of the British Constabulary getting paid a salary like all policemen.

He was PC Martin Grime, an active serving officer not a businessman.

Who having extracted the maximum publicity possible with a positive identification promptly left the police and started charging £650+ per day for Eddie's services, including running up a £93,000 bill in the Haute de Glenn case. I think my point stands.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

But it's doing the exact thing that Grime says indicates that the dog has caught the scent. It's practically staring at the ceiling!

Once again, I have no training whatsoever with sniffer dogs. However, the very fact that this video was freely distributed to the public and faced no criticism from the media or the police suggests to me that Grime did everything a handler should do in that situation. Don't forget a video like this would likely draw the attention of people who work directly with dogs - the people who would have the real knowledge to dismiss his methods if they believed they would yield inaccurate results.

Well watching it over and over I see what look like cues to me. It seems odd to me and different when he gets to the mccann rental.

 

[Captain_Khan]

No they found DNA that could have been up to 5 different people including the parents twins and perhaps two unknown others. They couldn't even distinguish what type of DNA ie saliva blood etc. To say they found mcanns DNA is not accurate

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I deliberately phrased it as 'McCann DNA' and not 'Madeleine DNA' as I understood it was either Kate, Gerry, Madeleine or one of the twins that left the DNA there.

This also doesn't change the fact that the dog was responding to cadaverine, not the DNA itself. Cadaverine is not produced by living humans, so we have to wonder how it got onto the indicated items.

 

[haden]

I don't understand what you are asking me here.

Please see gords post above.
What I meant to say is that this was investigated and I thought you knew this.
The forensics staff have no ways to tell what kind of body material the DNA is coming from.

 

[Little Jedi]

But these dogs as well as on cadaver both alert on dry blood, dry blood from living humans.
Do we agree on this or I have to post the quote from their handler?

And how do we know where the dogs have alerted on cadaver and where on dry blood?

Unless there is a dead body nobody can know that!

The basic difference between the dogs alerting to blood and alerting to cadaver is;
Keela (Human Blood) has been trained to freeze and pinpoint the area with her nose on the spot, where as Eddie (Cadaver detection) will stand & bark.

Martin Grimes' statement explains how they are trained to work.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I deliberately phrased it as 'McCann DNA' and not 'Madeleine DNA' as I understood it was either Kate, Gerry, Madeleine or one of the twins that left the DNA there.

This also doesn't change the fact that the dog was responding to cadaverine, not the DNA itself. Cadaverine is not produced by living humans, so we have to wonder how it got onto the indicated items.

IT does not mean that at all.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Human Remains (*cadaver) Detection (HRD) dog questions and answers **NO DISCUSSION**

"An HRD dog WILL alert on human blood."


Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Human Remains (*cadaver) Detection (HRD) dog questions and answers **NO DISCUSSION**

 

[gord]

I deliberately phrased it as 'McCann DNA' and not 'Madeleine DNA' as I understood it was either Kate, Gerry, Madeleine or one of the twins that left the DNA there.

This also doesn't change the fact that the dog was responding to cadaverine, not the DNA itself. Cadaverine is not produced by living humans, so we have to wonder how it got onto the indicated items.

No it could even have included from two others so not just mcanns . Chances are it was McCanns but it was their hire car so pretty Normal. Sure the dogs alerts to cadaver scent but the only test they did was DNA. As far as I know there isn't a test for cadaver . Also as grimes said Eddie can also alert to dried blood

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[Captain_Khan]

Well watching it over and over I see what look like cues to me. It seems odd to me and different when he gets to the mccann rental.

It is the dog who changes its behavior first when they reach the McCann car. It does a full sweep of the car, then dashes out of view with his head held high. Grime has to call Eddie back to the car, because he's become agitated and behaving differently.

At the other cars, Eddie does a sweep then seems to lose interest, and does have to be summoned back to them. At the McCann car, however, it gets worked up and is suddenly full of energy and performing the 'heads up' motion.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

It is the dog who changes its behavior first when they reach the McCann car. It does a full sweep of the car, then dashes out of view with his head held high. Grime has to call Eddie back to the car, because he's become agitated and behaving differently.

At the other cars, Eddie does a sweep then seems to lose interest, and does have to be summoned back to them. At the McCann car, however, it gets worked up and is suddenly full of energy and performing the 'heads up' motion.

Not that I see. Not at all.

 

[Captain_Khan]

No it could even have included from two others so not just mcanns . Chances are it was McCanns but it was their hire car so pretty Normal. Sure the dogs alerts to cadaver scent but the only test they did was DNA. As far as I know there isn't a test for cadaver . Also as grimes said Eddie can also alert to dried blood

Yes, I am not trying to suggest the McCanns are guilty - I'm merely trying to straighten out the facts of this case.

Does anyone have any idea why either cadaverine or old blood was found in the car, on the keys etc?

 

[Donjeta]

But these dogs as well as on cadaver both alert on dry blood, dry blood from living humans.
Do we agree on this or I have to post the quote from their handler?

And how do we know where the dogs have alerted on cadaver and where on dry blood?

Unless there is a dead body nobody can know that!

Not seeing what it has to do with the post you quoted.

I didn't say what the dogs alerted on, just pointed out that finding DNA at an alert site does not equal, "the dogs alerted on DNA"

Whether the alert is false or not there could still be DNA that is unconnected to the source of the scent.

 

[Captain_Khan]

Not that I see. Not at all.

You don't have any evidence, though. I get the impression you just feel that way about the video because it goes against what you believe in. I haven't made my mind up yet about the case as a whole, but this looks perfectly fine to me for the following reasons:

• The dog clearly behaves differently when he reaches the McCann's car.
• Grime only changes his behavior after the dog has changed.
• The dog is clearly displaying the body language which is said to indicate that it has found a scent.
• The dog finds the specific point on the car at which the scent could realistically be expected to be found.
• This could easily be the second time the dog has done this (once off-camera, once on-camera).

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

You don't have any evidence, though. I get the impression you just feel that way about the video because it goes against what you believe in. I haven't made my mind up yet about the case as a whole, but this looks perfectly fine to me for the following reasons:

• The dog clearly behaves differently when he reaches the McCann's car.
• Grime only changes his behavior after the dog has changed.
• The dog is clearly displaying the body language which is said to indicate that it has found a scent.
• The dog finds the specific point on the car at which the scent could realistically be expected to be found.
• This could easily be the second time the dog has done this (once off-camera, once on-camera).

The dog does not behave differently from the beginning.. Only when it leaves the car and comes back.

You are right, IT is not hard evidence but to me it is there. And I am not the only one who has seen it and been concerned by it.

 

[~n/t~]

There is a thread where this was explained.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - the cadaver dog

Thanks. I messaged Oriah to get her opinion I gave her a link to the dogs. Hopefully she can help us clarify it.

I always thought cadaver dogs alerted to dead bodies and not living people.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Thanks. I messaged Oriah to get her opinion I gave her a link to the dogs. Hopefully she can help us clarify it.

I always thought cadaver dogs alerted to dead bodies and not living people.

From what I gathered in that thread, It makes sense. I hope they can clarify further.

"Possibly. It would largely depend on what kind of surface the blood was deposited on.

For example, I too had an injury in the past year that produced a lot of blood inside a residence. Actually it was a trail from outside to inside, which may help explain even further.

In my situation; there was blood deposited on grass, then on dirt, then on cement, then on sealed hardwood floors, then on tile, then on a towel, then on stainless steel.

We cleaned everything up, of course- but certain surfaces retain HR scent particles (such as blood) much longer than others. The concrete, for example. Scrubbed it with bleach and can't see a thing. But one of our HRD dogs will still hit on it if we put him to work.

The tile? Scrubbed that too- but the grout retains the scent. He'll hit on that also. The sealed hardwood floors- no. The towel we threw away, so I've no idea, lol. If we hadn't thrown it away, I guarantee he'd be hitting on that. The stainless steel- no. But that's because it is a sink, and not a sealed stainless steel container.

Does that make any sense?"

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Human Remains (*cadaver) Detection (HRD) dog questions and answers **NO DISCUSSION**

I just want to quote Oriah fully for those following along.

 

[gord]

Yes, I am not trying to suggest the McCanns are guilty - I'm merely trying to straighten out the facts of this case.

Does anyone have any idea why either cadaverine or old blood was found in the car, on the keys etc?

You would be surprised how easy it can be to leave drops of blood through shaving nicks scratches nose bleeds small cuts. I would have to check the files but I think they found some blood spots on the key fob from Gerry .

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