Madeleine McCann general discussion thread #28

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Eddie alerts to *CADAVER* odour !!!

And blood.

 

[haden]

Eddie alerts to *CADAVER* odour !!!

..and on dried blood

...and it seems on the pig scent too.. ( just found this!)

From Marin Grime interview

> The result from scientific experiment and research to date would tend to

support the theory that the scent of human and pig decomposing material is so

similar that we are unable to 'train' the dog to distinguish between the two.

That is not to say that this may not be possible in the future.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm

 

[Little Jedi]

I'm not an expert on how to manage a sniffer dog, so I can't really comment on whether what Grime did was usual - but I assume that by making the video public he wasn't concerned about any lack of professionalism, and I haven't seen any negative criticism from others in the industry. (Please feel free to correct me here - I have not been studying this case long).

I would have assumed that his technique would have drawn heavy criticism from within the industry if he had done anything usual.

Pretty good reputations I'd say,

"Keela is a top dog in the police world, earning more in a day than her force's Chief Constable by working on some of the country's highest-profile crimes." Sky News

The FBI considers them -- Martin Grime and his 7-year-old, English Springer Spaniel, Eddie -- two of the best in the law enforcement specialty of canine forensics, able to find evidence everyone else missed.

 

[~n/t~]

I've wondered at times if she wasn't simply taken into one of the apartments across the street adjacent to the car park. There is a quote from Silence of the Lambs "we begin by coveting what we see everyday." Casually watched from across the street all week.


Just my own opinion

And then what happened? PDL is not a big town. Population of only 2500 excluding tourists. If she was taken I don't think it was a local IMO

 

[~n/t~]

..and on dried blood

...and it seems on the pig scent too.. ( just found this!)

From Marin Grime interview


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm

Unless the McCanns had a pet pig, I doubt his alert was pig scent

 

[Little Jedi]

the dna was found in the cadaver sites.

^^^^this^^^^

 

[haden]

Unless the McCanns had a pet pig, I doubt his alert was pig scent

or ate prosciutto ))

> In training the dog has accurately alerted to a 1 cm cube of pork soaked in

petrol for 1 week and then burnt until only a residue remains.

From Martin Grimme statement
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm

 

[Hexe]

Unless the McCanns had a pet pig, I doubt his alert was pig scent

Aren't all the cadaver dogs trained first on the animal carcasses, and then on human ones? And in that second phase taught to react in a certain way only when the smell of a human decomp is present? I mean a cadaver dog alerting on rotting pork would be pretty much useless, hitting the fridges, rubbish bins and old pizza boxes.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Human remains ? Are you sure ? Was this recent remains . I never heard anything about human remains. Have you got any link to the that ?

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Footage of a sniffer dog searching inside a Jersey children's home as part of an historical abuse investigation has been published on an internet site.

The film was acquired and published by the blog site Voice for children.

The footage was shot on a mobile phone by police investigators at Haut de la Garenne in early 2008.

The former senior investigating officer Lenny Harper said the dog, Eddie, gave officers enough evidence to widen their abuse investigation at the home.

He said he was initially sceptical about using the dog and his handler, Martin Grimes, but said his initial impression changed after working with them.

He said: "Whilst dogs can always get it wrong, I think that there was ample corroborating evidence of the dog's reaction to justify the need to investigate further."

'React strongly'

Eddie is trained to detect human remains and helped in the search for Madeleine McCann.

In the video he was seen to react strongly in certain parts of the building.

The day after the video was made, the police found what they thought were partial human remains.

Dozens of teeth were also uncovered, but later that year statements from the police cast doubt on those initial findings.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-jersey-17337414

Eddie reacted, they found human remains, and corroborating evidence, whatever that is.

So now we have accusations of Lenny Harper being corrupt too? Jersey Police, South Yorkshire police, all cueing their sniffer dogs to incriminate the innocent?

What's their motive?

 

[aa9511]

Not really... If they knew that all those 15 alleles came from the same person it would presumably be pretty high. But from what I understand they're saying the 37 alleles that they found are a mix of three to five people and they don't know which person contributed which alleles. Then it's not about the likelihood of finding that particular string of alleles that matches Madeleine but the likelihood of sampling three to five individuals and finding alleles that match Madeleine's. Let's say Gerry and Kate and the twins contributed their DNA into the mix. Half of Madeleine's DNA came from Kate, half came from Gerry, the twins would be about 25 % the same as Madeleine.
Since they don't know that all those 15 alleles that match Madeleine's came from the same person it could be that some came from Gerry's DNA, some from Kate's, some from the twins.


To complicate the matters, some alleles are rather common and are shared with a large percentage of the population so if there was a fifth person even that one could randomly have had some alleles in common with Madeleine even if they weren't biologically related.

So what about the cadaver dog then, alerting to cadaver scent? Oh, so we're supposed to discount the dogs too? Not only are we supposed to discount the DNA, but the dogs too.

The fact is that Madeleine is gone. We cannot discount that fact. A child goes missing under highly suspicious circumstances, still not found, and a specially trained elite dog alerted to there being a dead body in the apartment and in the car. Are we to imagine that there was someone else's dead body in those places? Since the DNA is inconclusive? Does that mean that there was another dead person that someone brought to the villa and to the car, just to leave the scent there? Then they took that body back away.

 

[Little Jedi]

We don't know what the dog smelled. IT could have been blood, decaying cells, WE don't know what the dog is thinking.

Except the one car is marked with tons of madeleine posters.

Sorry but these are not cadaver sites.
These dogs we know alert on the dry blood too from living humans.

But it's doing the exact thing that Grime says indicates that the dog has caught the scent. It's practically staring at the ceiling!

Once again, I have no training whatsoever with sniffer dogs. However, the very fact that this video was freely distributed to the public and faced no criticism from the media or the police suggests to me that Grime did everything a handler should do in that situation. Don't forget a video like this would likely draw the attention of people who work directly with dogs - the people who would have the real knowledge to dismiss his methods if they believed they would yield inaccurate results.

Eddie *CADAVER* (EVRD) dog will BARK to alert.

Keela *BLOOD* (CSI) dog will freeze and pinpoint the area with her nose on the spot.

AND...If you read Grime's statements & reports he explains how the dogs are trained & how they work in detail.
Also to note they are currently employed by the F.B.I. so obviously good enough for them as well as British Police.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

So what about the cadaver dog then, alerting to cadaver scent? Oh, so we're supposed to discount the dogs too? Not only are we supposed to discount the DNA, but the dogs too.

The fact is that Madeleine is gone. We cannot discount that fact. A child goes missing under highly suspicious circumstances, still not found, and a specially trained elite dog alerted to there being a dead body in the apartment and in the car. Are we to imagine that there was someone else's dead body in those places? Since the DNA is inconclusive? Does that mean that there was another dead person that someone brought to the villa and to the car, just to leave the scent there? Then they took that body back away.

No the dog alerted to something. We don't know whose dead body if there was a dead body or what scent it was.

We don't know that Madeleine is gone. We have no idea what happened to her but that she was taken out of that room that night.

I think that it was a rental car poses lots of problems. What if the car hit an animal? Ran over a dead animal? I wonder if that can cause a hit??
If someone cut themselves and shed biologic material that degraded in the heat??

 

[aa9511]

Well in this case the police and legal system didn't come to that conclusion. They didn't ever charge the couple. Not all cases are the same.

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I blame that on geo-political reasons. How could the pj charge the couple when they couldn't even properly question them because they were allowed to flee back to the UK? How could the UK charge them when they were doing no investigation and the investigation was done by pj, who as I just said could not even properly question them?

No to mention all the other reasons, such as the high-ups putting their support behind them before they were fully aware of all the facts.....

 

[Hexe]

I think that it was a rental car poses lots of problems. What if the car hit an animal? Ran over a dead animal? I wonder if that can cause a hit??

Cadaver dogs alerting on the rotting animal carcasses would be useless. Like, totally useless. The LE would be digging plots because of some dead mouse. The dogs would be alerting basically everywhere, because of dead animals, rotting food, containing meat, tens, dosens and hundreds of the fake alerts.

 

[SapphireSteel]

If all of these police forces are supposed to be so corrupt, then why are the empty burblings of Andy Redmond treated as gospel and somehow "proof" of McCann innocence?

Surely if the South Yorkshire police and the Leicestershire Police and the Jersey Police are spending their time and resources framing innocent people, there is absolutely no logic to believing that SY are reliable either.

 

[aa9511]

It could have been.

But they all made it out of Portugal alive.

The DNA was found in the cadaver sites.

:goodpost:

Thank you! How this important point gets completely ignored in the whole DNA discussion just amazes me and is beyond my grasp to even begin to comprehend................

 

[haden]

Well, there is a reason why the dogs findings are not allowed by law as an evidence in a British court. This is because the dogs can be wrong.
The scientific proof is allowed as evidence.
Scientifically speaking, there is no evidence Madeleine died in that apartment, and there is no evidence she died at all.

As for the dogs, if they found Madeleine's body or her blood, they would be considered useful in this case.
Otherwise, they are useless in this case.

 

[aa9511]

No the dog alerted to something. We don't know whose dead body if there was a dead body or what scent it was.

We don't know that Madeleine is gone. We have no idea what happened to her but that she was taken out of that room that night.

I think that it was a rental car poses lots of problems. What if the car hit an animal? Ran over a dead animal? I wonder if that can cause a hit??
If someone cut themselves and shed biologic material that degraded in the heat??

bbm

?? What do you mean we don't know that Madeleine is gone? I mean "gone" as in literally "gone," not meaning it as in passed away. Yes, she is gone. That is what this is all about!!!

:scared::scared:

 

[Little Jedi]

It is the important part if you ask me.

So basically you are discrediting a U.K.A.C.P.O. accredited police dog training instructor & a 'Special Advisor to The U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, in relation to their Canine Forensic Program' after watching a 5 min. edited clip on You Tube ??

WOW !!!!!

 

[haden]

So basically you are discrediting a U.K.A.C.P.O. accredited police dog training instructor & a 'Special Advisor to The U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, in relation to their Canine Forensic Program' after watching a 5 min. edited clip on You Tube ??

WOW !!!!!

This dog is no longer licensed in the UK