Holly Bobo found deceased, discussion thread *Arrests* #7

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There is no evidence in the indictments. The charges themselves imply that they are based on witness statements since they describe specific actions that only people present would know, and the only witness that can be is DA. And that is probably all the evidence they have (if they had more they would have offered him immunity to secure his testimony, which would have made the case water tight). The requirements to get an indictment are not high, they are just probable cause and someone's allegations would certainly fit that bill. Remember, the only person presenting the case to a grand jury is the prosecutor, who gets to choose what he or she presents. There is no cross-examination and no defense attorney present.

As I said before, they can't have him testify in court because his claims likely cannot be corroborated by anything, and he is almost certainly impeachable due to his character and personal history. The only way they can get his prior statements admitted without him testifying is to charge him with the same crimes and have him tried with the other two. But, since the trial process has already started for the other two they could not just add him as another defendant in the trial. To get around that they dismissed the earlier charges and recharged all three together with the new charges using the argument that the new charges are more serious and therefore supersede the old ones. So, now they have a situation where they know he won't be called by the defense to testify but they can still admit his statements under the hearsay exception. And because the statements are admitted as evidence, not the direct testimony, the only attack the defense can make on them directly is the validity under which the statements were obtained, not the factual content of the statements themselves (since you can't cross examine a piece of paper). This puts the defense in a very weak position where they cannot directly contest the "facts" as presented by the prosecution because of the rules of the court. These kind of tactics have nothing to do with truth and justice, and everything to do with winning at all costs, no matter if the defendant is innocent or guilty.

They are playing games with the law. It implies that they know that they don't really have real evidence of the accusations, so they are using the rules of the trial process to get around that deficiency and use suspect allegations in a way that makes it very difficult for the defense to challenge them.

If they had more evidence that would make them offer DA immunity?????????.......can you please explain how in the world you came to this conclusion?

Seriously this is not how it works.......if they had more evidence they would not be willing to offer immunity to any of the suspects.
Which ironically they were trying to revoke the immunity from SA when he committed suicide......good chance they had some evidence he was much more involved then they thought when the deal was made.

The charges imply they only have witness statements..........??????.I am not even going to address this any further.

Forensics can and will prove ZA was in the Bobo carport.........Hence the prolonged silence from the defense since that bit* of
evidence that was dropped on them a while ago

* the massive amount of discovery/evidence wouldn't be considered a "BIT" either here in the US nor over in the UK
 
How did you conclude that the charges were based on witness statements and they have no evidence? Out of the 460 pieces of evidence do you believe they have nothing or not enough to have charged these monsters?

The naysayers just pretend that leaked photo of a shoeprint from the Bobo carport doesn't exist........if that print matches a pair of crocks owned by ZA it is game,set and match...........death or life/without is the only question left.

Yes it is possible it is not a match but very unlikely..........if I remember correctly it was used to get an indictment which charges were filled 3 days after a search warrant was executed...the perfect amount of time for forensics to confirm the match.

There are people out there that think OJ,Casey Anthony and even more questionable James Holmes are innocent.....the same will happen with this case no matter how much or how strong the evidence turns out to be.
 
If they had more evidence that would make them offer DA immunity?????????.......can you please explain how in the world you came to this conclusion?

Seriously this is not how it works.......if they had more evidence they would not be willing to offer immunity to any of the suspects.
Which ironically they were trying to revoke the immunity from SA when he committed suicide......good chance they had some evidence he was much more involved then they thought when the deal was made.

The charges imply they only have witness statements..........??????.I am not even going to address this any further.

Forensics can and will prove ZA was in the Bobo carport.........Hence the prolonged silence from the defense since that bit* of
evidence that was dropped on them a while ago

* the massive amount of discovery/evidence wouldn't be considered a "BIT" either here in the US nor over in the UK

SA very likely killed himself because there was a very good chance that his deal was going to be revoked (probably because what he told them was useless or demonstrably false, and he had been told this by them in no uncertain terms), and that would mean that he would be going to jail for a very long time on the unrelated offences he was charged for. Remember, he provided the prosecutor with information about the Bobo case in return for a deal on other offences he was facing. When the deal was officially revoked he almost certainly would have had his original charges reinstated, and since he likely admitted to them as part of the deal, he was toast.

Evidence comes in two forms. Evidence that a crime was committed, and evidence that a particular person committed the crime. They might have some, even a lot of, evidence that a crime was committed, but it is very unlikely that they have much evidence regarding WHO committed it outside of what DA claimed in his statements. So to connect the other two to the crime, they really need his testimony. Typically (unless they found out that DA was the major perpetrator) they would offer a deal in the form of reduced charges or immunity in return for the testimony making the link between the crime and the accused. For example, in the John Gotti trial, they secured the conviction using the testimony of Sammy Gravano, who was actually a serial killer and a very bad person. In return Gravano got a 5 year sentence. For being a serial killer. This happens all the time.

The charges imply witness statements because they claim facts that could only have come from a witness. The only known such witness is DA, hence it is not unreasonable to presume that that is the basis for the indictment. Ideally they would want DA to SAY that in court, but obviously he is not going to do that (especially now). That is why they have recharged all three of them with new upgraded charges, so they can still use his statements without needing to have him testify. It is a strategic move, and you only make strategic moves because direct moves won't work. That says a lot about the case they have.

I'm not sure how forensics would prove ZA was in the carport since we already know that he was posting on his facebook page at the time HB was abducted and presumably could not be in two places at once. We also know that the description of the abductor does not match ZA.

Discovery in a criminal case is basically the entire investigation file. The investigation had been going on for years before they focused on ZA and co, so there would be a huge amount of irrelevant information in it. All of that is part of discovery as well.

The only information that would be relevant to the trial would be the events of the day, such as who saw what and when LE was called, their initial observations etc etc. Most of this would establish that a crime had occurred, but none of it would say who perpetrated it. After that, evidence gathered during and after the search warrants were executed would be used to show who the perpetrators were. We know about DA's allegations, and that would have been the basis of both the warrants and the indictments. As for the evidence gathered during execution of the search warrants, they may have taken a lot of stuff, but probably very little or none of it would be useable in trial. For example, they may have taken ZA's cell phone, but if there was nothing incriminating on it, it would just be a cell phone and prove nothing other than that he had a cell phone. That is normal for any investigation.

They have had all this evidence for a long time. Do you not think it strange that they would be missing deadlines, ignoring court orders to deliver discovery, forgetting to bring defendants to the courthouse from jail during hearings and all that if they had compelling evidence outside of DA's claims? The whole debacle about the guy who supposedly had a video, but it was really just based on what a woman thought she kind of saw - that was an amazingly weak argument and the sort of thing done in desperation. And what about Stowe's spat with the TBI? Clearly HE thought that things were not being done right and that information was being concealed, even from him, otherwise he would not got into such a public fight. Irrespective of what the public spin was, IMO that was a fight about ethics - it meant that Stowe neither trusted nor believed what the TBI was claiming. If there was compelling evidence outside of DA's statements then none of that would have happened, but it did.

That is the basis for my belief that they don't have much more than DA's statement.

What is the basis for your belief that they do have more? You should present an argument in support of that position.

Obviously we don't know what they do or don't have, but considering the circumstances and the events of the last year or so, I would say that there are strong reasonable grounds to believe that they don't have a whole lot linking the accused to the crime outside of what DA had claimed. And that is the crux of the problem, and the big issue that they are trying to side step.
 
The naysayers just pretend that leaked photo of a shoeprint from the Bobo carport doesn't exist........if that print matches a pair of crocks owned by ZA it is game,set and match...........death or life/without is the only question left.

Yes it is possible it is not a match but very unlikely..........if I remember correctly it was used to get an indictment which charges were filled 3 days after a search warrant was executed...the perfect amount of time for forensics to confirm the match.

There are people out there that think OJ,Casey Anthony and even more questionable James Holmes are innocent.....the same will happen with this case no matter how much or how strong the evidence turns out to be.

Succintly put Chainsaw.

IMO for those who are uncertain about this case because ALL of the evidence against the defendants has not been made public, they are just waiting for more substantial info/proof to assist them in coming to an informed conclusion. But ITA that there are those who, for whatever reason, decide that the defendants are innocent (and law enforcement is "dirty") no matter what evidence/proof is presented and they will not change their minds. In fact, often times some will take rational/empirical facts and distort/muddy/spin the debate in order to justify their position. :facepalm:
 
Indictments are by design worded in a form that matches the statutes that are being charged.

So
1 There is no evidence in the indictments, and pointing to them as proof of any [Edit to correct brain typo on wording] specific sort of evidence is flawed thinking. They are simply formal accusations.
2 It is also a mistake to think the wording in the indictments might indicate what TYPE of evidence LE may or may not have, or indicate whether a case is weak or strong. There is no place for either. They only tell us who might have committed a crime, and what crime(s).
 
Indictments are by design worded in a form that matches the statutes that are being charged.

So
1 There is no evidence in the indictments, and pointing to them as proof of any sort of crime is flawed thinking. They are simply formal accusations.
2 It is also a mistake to think the wording in the indictments might indicate what TYPE of evidence LE may or may not have, or indicate whether a case is weak or strong. There is no place for either. They only tell us who might have committed a crime, and what crime(s).



Everyone has a right to their opinion and I respect everyone's here but if you read my original post, I asked how do we know evidence was NOT presented to the Grand Jury?

We just do not know if and what was presented. So how can anyone come to that conclusion just by reading the indictments?



If a prosecutor wants a grand jury to charge someone, the prosecutor reserves time with the grand jury and then presents evidence to them. In presenting the evidence, the prosecutor is trying to persuade the grand jurors that the people he or she wants to charge have committed certain crimes. The evidence can be almost anything--testimony from witnesses (including police officers or federal agents), documents, video recordings, tape recordings, the results of scientific tests (like DNA tests), photographs, etc. Here, you see a prosecutor presenting evidence to a grand jury (the gentleman is the prosecutor; the lady is the court reporter):

http://campus.udayton.edu/~grandjur/faq/faq3.htm
 
NT, I was addressing multiple things being said by various people about the indictments. To the extent they addressed things you might have said in the conversation, those parts were to you, but the parts that did not address what you were saying was to someone else.

Let me be clear that I was not saying they pulled indictments with no evidence of any kind whatsoever. That would not be possible, legally, except in the most corrupt jurisdiction. I am confident there was some evidence of some sort, pertinent and presented. Had to be.

But it's a big leap from "any evidence at all" to "enough." You said "If I read the Grand Jury Indictments, it appears there is enough evidence relevant to all charges" - but, there could be no way to read the indictments and derive any reliable indicator as to whether they have enough evidence, or that even a speck of it is evidence of any quality (especially when put under an adversarial setting), to obtain a single conviction.

An indictment is merely a group of citizens saying they saw something that is enough to put a man's property or freedom at risk and let a jury decide. But the evidence behind an indictment can be relatively crappy, or it can be rock solid, and there's no way to distinguish by looking at the indictment itself (which, if I understood you correctly, was your basis for asserting they have plenty of evidence, and of the right sort, to convict.) In the grand jury proceeding, there is no adversary for the DA to to argue against, no one is there to poke holes in any evidence or present the other side and offer conflicting evidence, the grand jury just gets what the DA gives them and rules on that basis. Fairly easy for a DA, if you have even a whiff of evidence and want to have a trial..

The presence of multiple charges is, in itself, also a non-indicator, and can sometimes be primarily part of a DA's bluff at trying to get one or more of the defendants to pursue a plea deal.

I'm not saying one way or the other here, because we don't know what we don't know. But I am pointing out that the indictments really are inconclusive as to us knowing whether the evidence is strong, weak, massive, sparse, or anywhere in the middle.
 
They might have some, even a lot of, evidence that a crime was committed,

I am almost afraid to ask ....BUT...........Are you not yet convinced a crime was committed against Holly Bobo?

Maybe you could add on to your Holly was just a in the wrong place at the wrong time theory with....
While these guys were out on the spur of the moment looking for Drew (while he was armed,dressed in camo,and hunting in a vast area they would have to search) did Holly somehow die of natural causes or accidentally?.....maybe they went to her house and she offered to help and while in the carport ZA showed her his new knife and she cut herself and that is how the blood got on the floor.They decided to take her to a hospital but she died in route.These guys got scared and took her body home and then later disposed of her remains.

No offense but I quit reading your above post after I got to the part I quoted.
 
The A-Train is guilty as sin. They're going down...
And there WILL BE justice for Holly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
http://www.newschannel5.com/news/lo...ent-in-holly-bobo-case-could-fast-track-trial

This article and video clip state the forensics have been turned over........"There's more than just documents. There's photographs and forensic test results on everything from a skull prosecutors say belongs to Holly Bobo to hair fibers found in Zack Adams' home."
It is starting to sound like that blonde hair found in ZA's home might become another key piece of evidence.

30K pages of documents pretty much explains the standstill the trial is in right now.

I am a bit confused how hiring one person to categorize the evidence is going to help speed things up.The defense still needs to look closely at each item and even if it was all jumbled together .....photos,statements,dna,other forensics could just be organized by importance by the defense while reviewing the files as they received them.
 
I am almost afraid to ask ....BUT...........Are you not yet convinced a crime was committed against Holly Bobo?

Maybe you could add on to your Holly was just a in the wrong place at the wrong time theory with....
While these guys were out on the spur of the moment looking for Drew (while he was armed,dressed in camo,and hunting in a vast area they would have to search) did Holly somehow die of natural causes or accidentally?.....maybe they went to her house and she offered to help and while in the carport ZA showed her his new knife and she cut herself and that is how the blood got on the floor.They decided to take her to a hospital but she died in route.These guys got scared and took her body home and then later disposed of her remains.

No offense but I quit reading your above post after I got to the part I quoted.

It is obvious that a crime was committed against HB, what is far less obvious is whether or not the defendants had anything to do with it. As things stand the only thing we know of linking them to the crime is DA's allegations. And if look at the shenanigans of the last year or so, and the strategic decision to charge DA with the same crimes, then IMO there is a very real likelihood that that is the only evidence they have linking these individuals to the crime.

The evidence to show those two things (namely A: that a crime took place; and B: that these guys were responsible) are completely different. They may have a lot of evidence for (A), but not necessarily a lot of evidence for (B).
 
I really don't know what to think. I want to believe the District Attorney's office has pulled it together and built a solid case against these rodents. But there were so many issues previously...so?
 
As things stand the only thing we know of linking them to the crime is DA's allegations.

Actually, Mark Gwyn the TBI director stated at one of the press conferences that he had sworn statements from "witnesses" (plural) who claimed to have seen Holly with ZA and JA after her abduction. The other witness could have been the now deceased Shayne Austin which would mean DA is all that's left, or there could be lots of witnesses we have not yet heard of.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/04/3...ts-with-holly-bobo-after-kidnapping-tbi-says/
 
After coming back from Parsons yesterday the locals still maintain that{disputed} evidence of DNA from 2 individuals were found during the first processing of what little crime scene there was.

A media release Friday that 'things were starting to move along' with the case was looked at with tired/bored eyes. If you recall 18 months ago things were 'starting to move along with the case'

The rowcroppers and the balers had a good season and some business expansion can be expected. That is good new for them as the hunters take to the woods.
 
Actually, Mark Gwyn the TBI director stated at one of the press conferences that he had sworn statements from "witnesses" (plural) who claimed to have seen Holly with ZA and JA after her abduction. The other witness could have been the now deceased Shayne Austin which would mean DA is all that's left, or there could be lots of witnesses we have not yet heard of.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/04/3...ts-with-holly-bobo-after-kidnapping-tbi-says/

I think that is pretty much standard language to say something while being vague.
 
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