Questions you'd like answers to...

Status
Not open for further replies.
BPD Crime Scene Photo Discussion -
Upstairs Kitchen/Laundry Room area:

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-crime-photos.htm

Tad and All,

As a friend of the owner of ACRs site, it has been battling mega bandwidths usage since BDI spurred sleuths to her site. There is a paypal option that would be highly meaningful in assisting the maintenance of her site. It cannot be stressed enough how vital it is to maintain the archives. You know, people grow older and expenses, generally increase with age, while income does not rise.

Cotton, that photo of JBs bedroom and bathroom is a new one for me. Will need my spyglass for inspecting that image. Merci.
 
Bringing forward a few iconic members whose brilliance placed a shining star on their efforts that were dedicated to solving the mystery of JonBenet's death. May your wisdom always be tenderly remembered.

Corey is replying to a post that now displays a deleted video. Archiving evidence is proven harder and harder to keep.

I agree.

I believe John was more involved. I believe either BDI and/or JDI. I stated long ago that I believe John set up Patsy. Before the BDI came to light (GJ indictments of JR and PR) and a third un-named person obviously Burke alot felt PR all the way. I believe John was JonBenet's abuser all along. Burke hit her with the flashlight and John strangled her implicating Patsy. I think John threw Patsy under the bus. Knowing Patsy's personality and over-the-top -ness John knew Patsy would look like the guilty one. John was the main controller and manipulator imho. And it worked most believed it was/is Patsy. I believe Patsy was in shock and insurmountable grief. I believe John dictated the ransom novel to her to write. John was holding all the cards and pulling Patsy along on puppet strings.

I believe JR also kept Patsy heavily medicated and dictated her script on CNN, too. She certainly seemed guilty, but JR was feeding her all her words, too, imho.

Imho JR is a master at controlling everything and everyone. Patsy seemed to be the one calling all the shots, but I believe she was just a fragile, scared, unhealthy person who thought she needed the security she felt JR gave her.

(I feel JR was even behind Patsy's comment to her parents about not seeing their grandchild even though she was not yet pregnant IF THEY did not give JR money to start his business. She was his puppet all along.) MOO.


Corey, I agree with you there are some things about JR’s behavior which indicate considerable talent in manipulating and controlling the aftermath. I try not to draw any conclusions beyond observing the manner in which JR has led others to certain conclusions.

From Kolar’s book and from BR’s TV interview, it is simple to believe BR did it all, except for the crime scene clean-up and RN; though like others I’ve always had questions about what happened after the head blow. (Did someone in the family bring a pillow down for her, e.g. , what is it doing on the kitchen counter in the photos taken after the 911 report?)

Whether JR was a ‘master liar/manipulator’ has been a question which has really not been evaluated very well. To rephrase this: Was JR an innocent victim in the development of the RN and the crime scene clean-up, until he purportedly joined the cover-up at 11:00 am that morning when he stated he found JB. Even Douglas only minimally glanced at the idea JR was a master liar, or as he stated, “If he was, he was one of the best.” For me the answer lies in his statements. It’s just an impression that he seems to know how to lead people he considers of inferior intellect to the conclusion he wants them to have, a little a la Hansel and Gretel dropping bread crumbs, only these are perplexing comments he has dropped.

-On June 6, 1997, three months into his work on the case, Smit did his daily drive to the Ramsey house to sit and think. This time, though, he bumped into the Ramseys themselves, who were staying with nearby neighbors.

“Smit and the couple waved to one another, and both parties pulled over. After some chatting, John asked Smit if he would pray with them. Smit suggested they do it inside his van. Smit said Ramsey's prayer was to the point: ‘I pray that someday this nightmare will end and we will find the killer of our daughter.’ Smit then wrote up a report of the encounter.”

-Another situation was described by Hodges who wrote about JR’s ascent in Access Graphics. Paraphrasing a bit - Of the three companies, John brought the fewest clients to the merger and was originally named vice president of sales. Shortly into the venture, John and the other ”junior” person in a two-on-one power play moved the older man aside. Then is a follow-up maneuver, equally as slick, John arranged for his contemporary to be scapegoated as the ruthless one for moving the “old bull” out of the way—while John gained support from the rest of the company’s power structure. John Ramsey was named company president in 1991.

-JR tells Gary Mann in his book DOI that he did not see it coming his job would end. From some Boulder comments of long ago, allegedly several employees at Access Graphics claimed that it was well-known within the company that JR would not have a job after January 1, 1997. This is before JB’s death. In fact in the spring of 1996 the “old bull” described in the situation of JR’s ascent in AG was brought back by LM to handle the European and Canadian territories of AG.

And at the time of the crime there were plenty of instances of leading people to reach certain conclusions.

- A broken window. JR leads FW to view, note and, he may hope, tell the detectives. A second party disclosure gives more credibility.

- When his older kids showed up at the home, whatever he said had to have led JAR to conclude the perpetrator should be forgiven. One assumes he hinted that the underage male in the home had done something.

- To Detective Arndt he states, “It was an inside job” when he places JB on the floor. If he is wanting to point to someone on the inside, it is handy to consider this person had a key and may have needed money. The detectives followed these suggestions to the housekeeper’s door.

-That night at the F home, JR is heard saying, I’m sorry, I’m sorry. When asked why, he said because he didn’t protect JB. JR leads his friends to know that he felt terrible he did not protect JB. However, usually people don’t apologize in immediate aftermath of a home invasion and killing as to what they didn’t do. They are angry at a killer. Or terrified. Who knows what impression his friends had of this apology.

And I can only draw the most obvious conclusion that JR wants those personally close to him, like Rev. Holverstock and his older kids, to grasp the underage male was involved. Yet with the authorities he seems to help build suspicion towards Santa, the housekeeper, folks like JM, a disgruntled employee.

My takeaway is that JR was pretty good at manipulative deception. Way before he purportedly ‘discovered JB’ at 11:00 am, he has mentally calculated how to use a broken window, a suitcase, the housekeeper’s knowledge of the home, etc., to his advantage. As I said, just my impression.

Just as a footnote….. This would make it even stranger that on Jan. 1, 1997 an American Girl doll was ordered by and shipped to JonBenet Ramsey at Access Graphics.

Quote Originally Posted by icedtea4me
JonBenet ordered an American Girl doll 6-7 days after she was killed? That is strange.
Truly.

More info at FFJ:
http://www.forumsforjustice.org/for...l-in-the-Name-of-JonBenet-on-January-1st-1997

Many follow-up questions suggest themselves. Right now I'm struck again by the timing, not only a week after JBR's death, but also in terms of JR's rumored ousting from AG on the same day as the order.

This ties in with JR's powers of deception/manipulation but will not, I hope, distract from qft's excellent and more comprehensive post at #1285.
 
7ed7e90935d9068f6c809bbfdabb9314.jpg



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


This is the photo of JBs bedroom and bathroom I had not seen before. Thanks again for posting it.
 
^ That's of the hallway area just outside her room, not the bathroom; just FYI. That's the ironing board near the laundry area.
 
Bringing forward a few iconic members whose brilliance placed a shining star on their efforts that were dedicated to solving the mystery of JonBenet's death. May your wisdom always be tenderly remembered.

DeDee,

Thank you so much for this post. Its well thought out, highly plausible theories like these that make me take a step back and look at things again. They definitely challenge differing theories.
 
The housekeeper hadn't been in for several days was my understanding... Not sure why the judgement.
 
So the Ramsey family was particularly messy, apparently, and we've heard and discussed that the housekeeper had a hard time with having to clean up clutter before she could actually clean, and this was Christmas. So yeah the house was likely to be a bit messy. I guess my sense of humor just didn't get the joke there, especially since there has been prior discussion of how underpaid she really was in light of the expectations. Ugh. Whatever.
 
Flourish, I got your joke right away and thought it was quite clever. I even LOL'd...for what it's worth.
 
So, this is my first time posting an observation, I am kinda new to this site, in that I have not had a great deal of time to read every single detail about the case, document notes, etc. I hope I am not being a "troll", but up to this point, I have been reading, learning, and absorbing. I am impressed with the keen eyes of posters here, the knowledge so many hold, and the true genuineness of members just wanting justice for many cases, especially this one.

With that said, I hope what I am posting is within the rules. I have read over the rules, but not studied them, (working full-time, kids, life, etc...). If what I post is not following rules, anyone feel free to remove it.

My observation is one that I have just noticed. I am sure someone has addressed this before, or I would imagine someone has, because the caliber of members on this website far beyond my abilities. If this has already been discussed, please forgive me and ignore me for not being caught up. I have just been interested in this case for a few years and my late husband was a Criminal Investigator, so unsolved cases have always interested me. On with my observation....

I have been listening to the depositions of JR and PR by Darnay Hoffman in the Chris Wolfe civil case on youtube. In JR's deposition, he was asked about the RN and also about the practice note ( I apologize I do not have the exact point on the video, I tried to listen for it this morning while getting ready for work, but it must have came on while my hairdryer was on because I have not yet found it). Anyway, during the deposition Darnay refers to the RN and asks JR if he notices any thing odd or remarkable about the note (not sure of the exact question). JR replies first by saying the length of the note stood out to him, then he went on to say that also how he was addresses formally in the opening of the note, then more informal as the note progresses. He states "the beginning of the ransom note addresses us as Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey, then later calls me John". I think at this point Darnay corrects him by saying "the ransom note says Mr. Ramsey, not Mr. and Mrs.", at which point John brushes it off as "oh yeah, that's what I meant, I just knew it was formal in the beginning".
At the same time I am listening to this, I am also reading Kolar's book and in it he states that the practice note found on PR's notepad said "Mr. and Mrs. I" which to him looked like the beginning of an "R". So, this is my thing, had both PR and JR discussed whether to address the RN to both of them, then decided to go with just JR and during the deposition, JR kinda told on himself?

Again, I apologize if my observation is nothing, or has already been discussed. I have read quite a bit in order to educate myself, but admittedly have not read everything. I also agree with previous posters about JR being a manipulative person. I think they both are, JR just seems like a highly intelligent man who has had the opportunity to advance his skills of manipulation with his continued work in business, whereas PR may have been a bit rusty on her stage performance because she stated she spent her days doing things around the house (besides cleaning), shopping, etc.

Thanks for letting me post, this is JMHIO.
 
So, this is my first time posting an observation, I am kinda new to this site, in that I have not had a great deal of time to read every single detail about the case, document notes, etc. I hope I am not being a "troll", but up to this point, I have been reading, learning, and absorbing. I am impressed with the keen eyes of posters here, the knowledge so many hold, and the true genuineness of members just wanting justice for many cases, especially this one.

With that said, I hope what I am posting is within the rules. I have read over the rules, but not studied them, (working full-time, kids, life, etc...). If what I post is not following rules, anyone feel free to remove it.

My observation is one that I have just noticed. I am sure someone has addressed this before, or I would imagine someone has, because the caliber of members on this website far beyond my abilities. If this has already been discussed, please forgive me and ignore me for not being caught up. I have just been interested in this case for a few years and my late husband was a Criminal Investigator, so unsolved cases have always interested me. On with my observation....

I have been listening to the depositions of JR and PR by Darnay Hoffman in the Chris Wolfe civil case on youtube. In JR's deposition, he was asked about the RN and also about the practice note ( I apologize I do not have the exact point on the video, I tried to listen for it this morning while getting ready for work, but it must have came on while my hairdryer was on because I have not yet found it). Anyway, during the deposition Darnay refers to the RN and asks JR if he notices any thing odd or remarkable about the note (not sure of the exact question). JR replies first by saying the length of the note stood out to him, then he went on to say that also how he was addresses formally in the opening of the note, then more informal as the note progresses. He states "the beginning of the ransom note addresses us as Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey, then later calls me John". I think at this point Darnay corrects him by saying "the ransom note says Mr. Ramsey, not Mr. and Mrs.", at which point John brushes it off as "oh yeah, that's what I meant, I just knew it was formal in the beginning".
At the same time I am listening to this, I am also reading Kolar's book and in it he states that the practice note found on PR's notepad said "Mr. and Mrs. I" which to him looked like the beginning of an "R". So, this is my thing, had both PR and JR discussed whether to address the RN to both of them, then decided to go with just JR and during the deposition, JR kinda told on himself?

Again, I apologize if my observation is nothing, or has already been discussed. I have read quite a bit in order to educate myself, but admittedly have not read everything. I also agree with previous posters about JR being a manipulative person. I think they both are, JR just seems like a highly intelligent man who has had the opportunity to advance his skills of manipulation with his continued work in business, whereas PR may have been a bit rusty on her stage performance because she stated she spent her days doing things around the house (besides cleaning), shopping, etc.

Thanks for letting me post, this is JMHIO.

JillRN,
Hey there and welcome. There is always something folks have missed. Sure does look like JR misspoke as they say? He does this at various points in the case, e.g. chair in front of door, on TV his tongue snakes out,

Patsy was pretty clever , she was no dummy, housework, what housework, they had a maid! Patsy had stars in her eyes she wanted JonBenet on TV, in pageants etc, she saw the future for JonBenet, she actually said JonBenet was her current project, thats elitist code for I'll do what it takes


The real question is : is the case PDI with the parents staging the wine-cellar to give Patsy a Get Out Of Jail Card? If so then BR and JR patently know who did it, otherwise they both know one of them killed JonBenet, which one?

.
 
So, this is my first time posting an observation, I am kinda new to this site, in that I have not had a great deal of time to read every single detail about the case, document notes, etc. I hope I am not being a "troll", but up to this point, I have been reading, learning, and absorbing. I am impressed with the keen eyes of posters here, the knowledge so many hold, and the true genuineness of members just wanting justice for many cases, especially this one.

With that said, I hope what I am posting is within the rules. I have read over the rules, but not studied them, (working full-time, kids, life, etc...). If what I post is not following rules, anyone feel free to remove it.

My observation is one that I have just noticed. I am sure someone has addressed this before, or I would imagine someone has, because the caliber of members on this website far beyond my abilities. If this has already been discussed, please forgive me and ignore me for not being caught up. I have just been interested in this case for a few years and my late husband was a Criminal Investigator, so unsolved cases have always interested me. On with my observation....

I have been listening to the depositions of JR and PR by Darnay Hoffman in the Chris Wolfe civil case on youtube. In JR's deposition, he was asked about the RN and also about the practice note ( I apologize I do not have the exact point on the video, I tried to listen for it this morning while getting ready for work, but it must have came on while my hairdryer was on because I have not yet found it). Anyway, during the deposition Darnay refers to the RN and asks JR if he notices any thing odd or remarkable about the note (not sure of the exact question). JR replies first by saying the length of the note stood out to him, then he went on to say that also how he was addresses formally in the opening of the note, then more informal as the note progresses. He states "the beginning of the ransom note addresses us as Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey, then later calls me John". I think at this point Darnay corrects him by saying "the ransom note says Mr. Ramsey, not Mr. and Mrs.", at which point John brushes it off as "oh yeah, that's what I meant, I just knew it was formal in the beginning".
At the same time I am listening to this, I am also reading Kolar's book and in it he states that the practice note found on PR's notepad said "Mr. and Mrs. I" which to him looked like the beginning of an "R". So, this is my thing, had both PR and JR discussed whether to address the RN to both of them, then decided to go with just JR and during the deposition, JR kinda told on himself?

Again, I apologize if my observation is nothing, or has already been discussed. I have read quite a bit in order to educate myself, but admittedly have not read everything. I also agree with previous posters about JR being a manipulative person. I think they both are, JR just seems like a highly intelligent man who has had the opportunity to advance his skills of manipulation with his continued work in business, whereas PR may have been a bit rusty on her stage performance because she stated she spent her days doing things around the house (besides cleaning), shopping, etc.

Thanks for letting me post, this is JMHIO.

Great catch. Yes, JR was caught out on that one.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
Anyway, during the deposition Darnay refers to the RN and asks JR if he notices any thing odd or remarkable about the note (not sure of the exact question). JR replies first by saying the length of the note stood out to him, then he went on to say that also how he was addresses formally in the opening of the note, then more informal as the note progresses. He states "the beginning of the ransom note addresses us as Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey, then later calls me John". I think at this point Darnay corrects him by saying "the ransom note says Mr. Ramsey, not Mr. and Mrs.", at which point John brushes it off as "oh yeah, that's what I meant, I just knew it was formal in the beginning".
Yeah its a huge slip up. John does something similar in the 'interrogation' when the ransom note is brought up. He screws up the time for the call. Instead of 8-10, John says 10-12. 10 to 12 had never been mentioned before by anybody, not LE, experts, sleuths, etc.

What's happening when these types of slip ups occur is John is remembering the alternate plan that was never implemented. Instead of a note to John, it's a note to both of them. Instead of a call coming between 8 to 10 am, it was going to be 10 to 12. He acted surprised when corrected on this as well. This could also be a minor reveal. He may have had little to do with the writing of the note(which I believe) and he never paid much attention to it.
 
so many gotcha points we have!
I requested a new thread specifically to put all these gotcha points in!
hoping a mod reviews it soon :)
 
Yeah its a huge slip up. John does something similar in the 'interrogation' when the ransom note is brought up. He screws up the time for the call. Instead of 8-10, John says 10-12. 10 to 12 had never been mentioned before by anybody, not LE, experts, sleuths, etc.

What's happening when these types of slip ups occur is John is remembering the alternate plan that was never implemented. Instead of a note to John, it's a note to both of them. Instead of a call coming between 8 to 10 am, it was going to be 10 to 12. He acted surprised when corrected on this as well. This could also be a minor reveal. He may have had little to do with the writing of the note(which I believe) and he never paid much attention to it.

That's exactly it!! To me, it says that they both were participating in the writing of the RN, Patsy was just more confident that she could hide her natural handwriting and fool everyone. I suppose I am a BDI believer, because I do not think that either parent would have went to such lengths to cover for each other. Eventually, I think one of them would have had so much hate for the other and spilled the beans. In the case of BDI, however, they both had a mutual goal, and that was to save their only living child. That's what kept them going with the cover-up. I think they made excuses for him all those years, telling themselves and each other that BR is just different, no one understands him, he needs help, otherwise, wouldn't they have,without realizing it, almost shunned him. I suppose what I am trying to say is, I love my children with all my heart and soul and would protect them any way I could. IF one of them injured or killed (GOD FORBID) the other, how would one keep from resenting the living child, even though you still love them? Maybe that is why he has kind of been a loner and seems so odd. Maybe there was not much interaction between parents and child after the awful night and that is why he is so strange. Sorry, I am rambling, I think, I am just thinking about this as I write.
 
Committing murder is not a "cover up", which is exactly what John and/or Patsy did if we're to accept BDI. She was alive when her parents made a decision to sacrifice her life for her brother's, and choked her to death. A cover up is when, upon finding your daughter unconscious due to a blow to the head inflicted by her brother, you call 911 and say she fell down the stairs. Fashioning a torture device designed to kill is premeditated murder. The cause of death was asphyxiation.

To say that neither parent would cover for the other is a wild assumption. Sure it sounds illogical to us, but stranger occurrences have happened. Casey Anthony's father stayed with his wife who declares Casey's innocence even after he was accused of sexual abuse. He's estranged from Casey while his wife is still in contact with her. That sounds absolutely crazy, but dysfunctional dynamics exist.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Staff online

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
105
Guests online
3,787
Total visitors
3,892

Forum statistics

Threads
592,392
Messages
17,968,293
Members
228,767
Latest member
Mona Lisa
Back
Top