CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #33 *ARREST*

[Irmese]

I’m going off his puppy sales, $2500 ea
10 pups per year = $25;000
I think he might have sold more like 20, annually. Moo
Shoeing only 15 horses per week would yield $1500-2k, imo (at very low end). 15 horses would take appx 12-25 hours.
So, imo, he had ample time to generate a handsome income, much greater than KB’s.

Personally, I find nothing humorous about this crime.
I have no knowledge of P playing with or hiding toys under his bed.

Selling dogs is not pure profit. It costs to raise them, too, and a lot of time for training. Of all his jobs, I'm not sure farrier is the one he spends the most time on and we have no knowledge of how much he's charging or how many horses he's working on per week. He's also got cattle, right? I don't know if he's raising calves to sell for beef, but that would be a significant amount of time and cost caring for them. Does he raise 20 a year or 2000? I have no doubt he might have significant income, but he also has significant costs associated with it.

 

[NoeticSoul]

The driving time for KB's job increases the longer we discuss this case. IIRC, first estimates were about 45 minutes each way.

KB's drive time to work discussion is like beating a dead horse already! Yes, pun intended related to PF. Good morning.

 

[makayla]

JMO
This case really baffles me in so many ways.

Mainly because PF had so many alternatives and did not have to kill KB. If things were not working out then join the millions of other normal couples and work out a shared custody agreement. Instead he loses the child and most likely loses his freedom for life. Its crazy.

The other thing that baffles me to no end is how he thought he could get away with it based on his actions.

Takes her purse and phone but leaves her two cars there. But then sends texts telling employer and himself that she is going to be gone for a week or so.

So even if we are to believe she left on her own without her car or someone picked her up then what happens after that week is up? She would never abandon her child and she had 2 vehicles she would not abandon nor the house she owned. So who did he expect LE would think was responsible for her being gone? Hmmmm. Maybe the person that got her child the day she disappeared.

This case is really along the lines of the Chris Watts case as far as the stupidity part goes. I really think he believed if nobody could find her body then there is no way charges would come down on him. ehhh...Wrong. He obviously did not learn that no-body cases can be successfully prosecuted and they seem to be on the increase. They may not be nearly as common as body cases but there are many examples of them and the one common thing among them is all fingers point to the only likely suspect or the only reasonable reason the person is missing. In this case all fingers were pointing right at him from the start.

He gave LE no other reasonable reason why she would be gone so long without her cars or her baby.

It really makes me think something went wrong in his planning. Like maybe he really did dump her purse with the keys in it before he realized he needed them to move the car. Or maybe something else went wrong with his plan. It just seems so crazy how he thought he would get away with it.

I just wish he would have came to his senses and just had an amicable breakup like millions of other couples. None of this had to happen. They werent even married yet. And sure he may have not gotten all the visitation he wanted but that was his fault as much as anyone elses, so too bad. He needed to get past that and deal with it.

He needed to own it, take responsiblity, do the right thing, and not be selfish. He did none of those things.

Sorry for the small rant. This case really bothers me for the reasons mentioned. It was so preventable and did not have to happen.

I completely agree Hatfield, but we are coming from a position of normal minds, and obviously something is askew with PF’s mind and the minds of all other people who are capable of planning and committing murder. I am frustrated like you, because we would have gone through a custody arrangement and moved on, so it’s hard for us to conceive that anyone would go to the extreme of murder over custody or money, or even control of another person. People like PF are wired differently IMO so they don’t think like we do. Sadly, this is why we see too many women, and occasionally men, murdered. I watch programs like Dateline, American Greed, 48 Hours etc. and over and over again you see people like PF, JA, SP and countless others who have some screw loose that prevents them from acting in good conscience like we would. It’s so sad and terribly frustrating ... we ask ourselves why, and we will never understand the mind of a killer. I just hope that all involved in this case are tried and convicted. It breaks my heart every time I see an innocent life taken, and their families’ lives changed forever. All IMHO ...

 

[WildWest]

Very interesting note by the Colorado auction owner on January 2019 sales....

- JACE'S NOTES

I read Jan 16, could you tell me what you found interesting?

 

[Dave F.]

Even if it’s ruled the Berreths don’t have standing, guess who else doesn’t? Her non-husband lol
Kaylee has standing and will be on this earth longer for monetary damage calculations
THANKS PF !!

The article at the link below doesn't really answer the question, but it clearly shows that the rights of an incarcerated parent can be hotly contested, all the way to the Supreme Court in very recent cases.
Child Custody Resources: Can Parental Rights be Terminated When a Parent is Incarcerated? - LawInfo

 

[Auntie Cipation]

I wonder if the cattle auction site shows archives, and if so, whether we could see how many of what category of cattle PF sold over the last several years -- any this time of year? Any other "complete dispersal" sales? Could give some perspective as to whether this is normal for him or indicates a closing down of the ranch activities.

It does make sense to me, though, that he would sell off anything that requires enough active maintenance that family can't or doesn't want to do. I don't think it's for the money per se but because he's not there to do the work, and there's not enough profit in it to hire others to do it.

If that's the reason, then he might also sell off any dogs that weren't pets but were for training or breeding or working cattle dogs for his own operation. Anyone know of a website that would show current sales of cattle dogs? Or for the horses?

 

[Yellow Rose]

Missing Colorado Mom Update: Kelsey Berreth's Fiancé Wants Wrongful Death Lawsuit Dismissed

"While the decision of the court is yet to come, even if the lawsuit is dismissed Berreth's parents can still file again on behalf of Kaylee. Earlier this month, a court ruled that one-year-old Kaylee would remain in the custody of Cheryl and Darrell Berreth, and child protective services.

Frazee's lawyers also claimed in the motion that the Berreths did not suffer any emotional distress, and thus the damages related to the claim be dismissed from the case.

In the wrongful death lawsuit the Berreths claimed that Frazee "enacted physical, mental, and emotional acts of violence upon Kelsey Berreth prior to her death." It also stated that "when Frazee acted as either the perpetrator or accessory to the murder of Kelsey Berreth, Frazee breached the duty of care with which a reasonable person should conduct himself toward another human being."

(I personally find that extremely offensive that the Berreths did not suffer any emotional distress, REALLY?)

 

[MsBetsy]

Can you remind me what the compelling evidence is? I remember only some folks' theory about blood or brain tissue in the plumbing IF the tub was used for killing or for dismemberment.

When I recall that latter search at KB's home, I think of the ladder they borrowed and of the LE standing just inside the doorway and pointing up and toward the loft area (IMO). Is there a bathroom upstairs? If so, I agree it's possible, but AFAIK there is no evidence we know of or are privy to, just folks recognizing that's a possible scenario known to have happened in other cases.

I think the reason some think that brain matter, tissue, lots of blood, or tiny bone fragments may have been found is that there must be some evidence that makes LE so sure that the victim is deceased. Some speculate that would have been the evidence they found, and possibly the tub was involved. It may have also been the loud noises the neighbors heard, as well as the many pieces of evidence carried out of the house.
Others speculated the body may have been burned, or somehow destroyed completely, leaving little left.
We really don't have much to go by so I guess there are numerous possibilities. If PF doesn't tell anyone what he did, her body may never be found and we may never find out how he disposed of it. Imo

 

[WildWest]

If you click on the consignments portion of this link you will see that PF sold 85 head of bred cows. It was a complete dispersal. We sold our cattle at La Junta Livestock for many years. A complete dispersal means just that. ALL of PF's herd was sold. From bred 2 yr old heifers through bred older cows. When consignments are listed as a complete dispersal that signals the potential buyers that this is the seller's complete herd. You're buying all he has, not a few cows that he culled for some reason. (inferior genetics, fence crawler, insufficient milk, etc)

Lawyer fees or no, I'm sure the F family had no choice. With PF possibly spending the rest of his life locked up, SF didn't have the physical means to run cattle anymore. Imo they would have been sold sooner, but it was more prudent for them to wait until closer to calving time. Potential buyers would not want to feed that pregnant cow any longer than they would have to.

Can you give your perspective if 94 head is more like a hobby, or could someone actually make a living on 94?

 

[jmk59]

Can you remind me what the compelling evidence is? I remember only some folks' theory about blood or brain tissue in the plumbing IF the tub was used for killing or for dismemberment.

When I recall that latter search at KB's home, I think of the ladder they borrowed and of the LE standing just inside the doorway and pointing up and toward the loft area (IMO). Is there a bathroom upstairs? If so, I agree it's possible, but AFAIK there is no evidence we know of or are privy to, just folks recognizing that's a possible scenario known to have happened in other cases.

I would think it would be standard practice for LE to collect all P-traps from the suspected crime scene. Any post cleanup would require some water and rising (into sinks or tub/shower). To get to a second floor tub/shower P-trap, you would get ladder and a sawzall and cut a hole in the downstairs ceiling to gain access. These P-traps trap (get it) all sorts of things that most people assume are just washed away.

 

[Dave F.]

I wonder if the cattle auction site shows archives, and if so, whether we could see how many of what category of cattle PF sold over the last several years -- any this time of year? Any other "complete dispersal" sales? Could give some perspective as to whether this is normal for him or indicates a closing down of the ranch activities.

It does make sense to me, though, that he would sell off anything that requires enough active maintenance that family can't or doesn't want to do. I don't think it's for the money per se but because he's not there to do the work, and there's not enough profit in it to hire others to do it.

If that's the reason, then he might also sell off any dogs that weren't pets but were for training or breeding or working cattle dogs for his own operation. Anyone know of a website that would show current sales of cattle dogs? Or for the horses?

Do we really need to be checking financials to determine that PF's activities have been cut back recently?

 

[Auntie Cipation]

I think the reason some think that brain matter, tissue, lots of blood, or tiny bone fragments may have been found is that there must be some evidence that makes LE so sure that the victim is deceased. Some speculate that would have been the evidence they found, and possibly the tub was involved. It may have also been the loud noises the neighbors heard, as well as the many pieces of evidence carried out of the house.
Others speculated the body may have been burned, or somehow destroyed completely, leaving little left.
We really don't have much to go by so I guess there are numerous possibilities. If PF doesn't tell anyone what he did, her body may never be found and we may never find out how he disposed of it. Imo

ITA. I was responding to the suggestion that we have "compelling indication" that the bathtub/plumbing was involved, rather than it being speculation based on general statistics of murders.

Do we really need to be checking financials to determine that PF's activities have been cut back recently?

No, and that's not what I was suggesting. Others had described the sale as being a typical thing for this time of year, and wondering whether "complete dispersal" meant of the offered lot rather than of all holdings. I was mentioning one idea of how this year's auction could be put into context. I'm of complete agreement that it was to close out his ranch responsibilities. But I always favor more contextual information over simple speculation.

 

[PrairieWind]

Missing Colorado Mom Update: Kelsey Berreth's Fiancé Wants Wrongful Death Lawsuit Dismissed

"While the decision of the court is yet to come, even if the lawsuit is dismissed Berreth's parents can still file again on behalf of Kaylee. Earlier this month, a court ruled that one-year-old Kaylee would remain in the custody of Cheryl and Darrell Berreth, and child protective services.

Frazee's lawyers also claimed in the motion that the Berreths did not suffer any emotional distress, and thus the damages related to the claim be dismissed from the case.

In the wrongful death lawsuit the Berreths claimed that Frazee "enacted physical, mental, and emotional acts of violence upon Kelsey Berreth prior to her death." It also stated that "when Frazee acted as either the perpetrator or accessory to the murder of Kelsey Berreth, Frazee breached the duty of care with which a reasonable person should conduct himself toward another human being."

(I personally find that extremely offensive that the Berreths did not suffer any emotional distress, REALLY?)

While I know this looks really bad and insensitive, this is a correct response by his attorney. To recover damages for emotional distress, you have to show that you were the one injured or that you actually witnessed the injury to a loved one. That didn't happen here, so I suspect this motion be granted at least in part. When this suit was filed I thought it seemed rushed and a little sloppy. The "standing" issue can eventually be corrected but I just don't know why the Barreth's attorneys didn't go through the correct steps to begin with.

 

[crhedBngr]

This is true. And Mtnlites also has kids who enjoy playing hide-n-seek. Sometimes one needs to be creative.

RBBM

First chuckle of the day, thanks!

KB's drive time to work discussion is like beating a dead horse already! Yes, pun intended related to PF. Good morning.

RBBM

Good morning to All!

 

[Dave F.]

@PrairieWind:
The child is currently in the legal custody of the Teller County offfice of the Colorado DHS, while in the temporary physical custody of the plaintiffs who are Idaho residents. Custody is an active legal issue which is not likely to be resolved soon. Can a Teller county, Colorado resident use federal court to sue another Teller county, Colorado resident, for damages incurred by an incident that happened solely in Teller county, Colorado? Not trying to put you on the spot, or start another round of speculation, but it seems to me that there might be a way deeper issue in the motion than a hasty filing.

 

[ajaylee]

I thought the whole point of the lawsuit was to allow them to depose PF.

If so, then they don't need a compelling case - winning is not the ultimate object. They just need the case not to get thrown out before PF is questioned.

Question for the legal minds: what happens in a civil case if the defendant refuses to answer questions? Contempt of court?

I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone is going to compel PF to talk if he doesn't want to. I think he'll be another Casey Anthony in this regard.

 

[Irmese]

Do we really need to be checking financials to determine that PF's activities have been cut back recently?

I think this is related to questions of PF's income. Some WS members think he had financial motives and others think he was well fixed for money and it was not a motive. I think protecting his money was a motive. I believe the cattle part might be Ma's business, that he works for her. MOO.
Edited to correct wording.

 

[Dave F.]

Can you give your perspective if 94 head is more like a hobby, or could someone actually make a living on 94?

That's really hard to say. Ultimately, the profit is the sale total less the aquisition & production costs and taxes. They vary dramatically from producer to producer. However, someone posted that PF had a poor credit score, which would indicate that credit wasn't involved in his cattle acquisition. I would say that any 32 year old who has $100,000 cash invested in a single asset is doing more than okay. He could easily be earning enough to buy some luxury items like a few extra Tonka trucks and Woody toys.

 

[Dave F.]

Many cattle producers start with little or nothing, running a few cattle on open range or leased land. For a century and a half, the most common term for it is "coyoting". Some never acquire much land, as leasing is economically a better business model. To qualify for US Forest Service High Altitude Grazing Permits, a rancher must own a base ranch of 35 acres, or be able to show legal proof that he/she is the heir to 35 acres, or has made a firm commitment to buy said 35 acres and can demonstrate the ability to pay when due, independent of the profits of the grazing permit. IMO

 

[PrairieWind]

@PrairieWind:
The child is currently in the legal custody of the Teller County offfice of the Colorado DHS, while in the temporary physical custody of the plaintiffs who are Idaho residents. Custody is an active legal issue which is not likely to be resolved soon. Can a Teller county, Colorado resident use federal court to sue another Teller county, Colorado resident, for damages incurred by an incident that happened solely in Teller county, Colorado? Not trying to put you on the spot, or start another round of speculation, but it seems to me that there might be a way deeper issue in the motion than a hasty filing.

The short answer is "no." A Teller County resident (or any Colorado resident) could not use federal court to sue another resident of Teller County or Colorado. "Diversity" is required, ie must be of different states. They would need to use state court for that.