Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #106

[ilovechili]

No I don't think it is. One is Larry and one is Robert. Maybe relatives? MOO

ETA- SvS you're so quick and beat me with the links - TY

Probably about the same age, both retired so I thought it was likely one and the same. Small area so maybe related? It does not matter other than I am trying to get a feel for the area. The one is very zealously religious clearly, nothing wrong with that. I was just wondering with references to things like The Shack, etc. is what led me down this road.

 

[Jerrod]

For the first five months when only the photos and audio had been released virtually all the theories on the early threads involved a younger person (aside from mistaken allegations against RL who looked nothing like the photo anyway IMO). In fact iirc posters here were shocked five months later when the first sketch was released and it was announced the suspect was believed to be as old as 40s to 50s. Even DN didn’t fit that age range.

Now some see an older man in the blurry facial photo so it must be a young man must be wearing a disguise? Interesting because after those first five months I still see a young man, age appropriate to 20s to 30s. Regardless that only serves to prove the facial imagery isn’t clear enough to recognize his face. If his face can’t be recognized, how could it be known he’s wearing a disguise including a mask?

I'll agree with you that discerning BG's age based on the grainy video stills is a haphazard proposition, but "virtually all" the early theories involved a younger man? That's not true in the least. The prevailing thought in the early days was that the raspy "down-the-hill" voice was that of a long-term tobacco user. Some even suggested BG can be identified by his smoker's cough. When the original sketch came out, there was no outcry - or "shock" - that it was not an age-appropriate interpretation of BG in the video stills. (The hooded eyelids were noted as one reason why.)

Use the keyword search box and "search this forum" for terms like "raspy" and "middle aged" and see what you come up with in the first two dozen threads. Even a keyword like "Carhartt" as being a typical middle-aged man's attire in rural Indiana was being cited to support the notion that BG is older.

 

[SeattleStew]

I think LE was extremely clear on this actually:

“We’re releasing additional portions of the audio recording from that day. Please keep in mind the person talking is one person and is the person on the bridge with the girls. This is NOT two different people speaking- please listen to it very, very carefully.”

BBM. Thank you so much for posting this. It clears up so much for me!

 

[susiQ]

I'm not from the community and don't know anyone there, so all I have to go on is what I read and hear locals say but I agree with you. It seems like that community has a pervasive desperation to resolve the case and those that are in the community with they had the info that could uravel the mystery.

I'm not disagreeing with you here, but it is also based on where in the community you're coming from. Yesterday, I commented on my own relatively "sheltered" life, unaware that certain activities are common place in some areas. I do believe that the good people of Delphi and area desperately want this heinous crime solved and an arrest made, having no idea of where to look for the killer. Yet, there is another element of society in Delphi and surrounding area (the underbelly if you will) that could most likely careless and the perp may well be found in that element, of which the good people know nothing of. JMO

 

[Spy Versus Spy]

It all seems pretty muddled , doesnt it. Im torn between it being really poorly handled on one hand ( too many cooks, off message comment, error strewn) , and the hope that DC and others seem to genuinely feel that one day they will be able to explain to us what they cant now on the other hand.

One question for me on the sketches is, the OSG was a joint effort between more than one/a handful of witnesses ( on or around the trail?), the image video/still from LG's phone and a sketch artist. Iirc, one of the witnesses who took part wasnt happy with the resulting OSG sketch?

The YSG was as a result of a description from a single, female , witness who saw something she felt needed reporting. (Location undisclosed?)

Do posters think that the YSG witness and the 'unhappy' OSG witness could be the same person?

Apologies for replying to my own post. Too late to edit.

Am I mistaken in my op in believing that the OSG sketch came from more than one witness/source?

 

[lakelette]

I hope it's okay to mention this, but it seems appropriate to me. The families of Abby and Libby are raising money for their memorial park and have an opportunity to earn matching funds for donations made by the end of June. Thought it was worth sharing! I know that I'd like to pitch in a little. Abby and Libby Memorial Park | Patronicity

 

[FinePrint]

This is from last years CrimeCon. I just wanted to post it again because it is discussed in detail how OBG sketch was developed. Just thought it was good to review again.

At about the 22:40 mark.... also at 49:00 LE speaks about cameras in the area (trail cams)

 

[x_files]

Anything is possible, but Carter did say his hand was in his pocket.

"Maybe it's his jeans," he added. "Maybe it's his jacket or his sweatshirt. Maybe it's his shirttail. Maybe it's his posture. Maybe it's the right hand in his pocket."

Families of Delphi, Ind. murder victims hope new park will be place of healing

for the longest time, I saw his hand in his pocket. Then after staring at it forever, I can make out maybe a brown fanny pack in front or his hand near his crotch.

 

[susiQ]

I really doubt this is the case. I think he simply meant to say to the killer that he believed he had a little bit of conscience left. I should add that this has caused me to believe that they know exactly who the killer is, and something that they know about the guy leads them to believe that there is a conscience in there somewhere.

This interpretation springs from my increasing confidence that the use of SC (or a similar app) is involved....if you get my drift.

Could be and I hope you're right! Me on the other hand thinks DC's comment about a wee bit of conscience left strikes me as "wishful thinking." JMO

 

[cody22]

for the longest time, I saw his hand in his pocket. Then after staring at it forever, I can make out maybe a brown fanny pack in front or his hand near his crotch.

Or possibly a tool belt with pouch ?......moo

 

[x_files]

[

Although it is possible that BG May have been masturbating or otherwise being lewd in some manner, I don’t really see Abby & Libby being the kind of girls that would have mocked him or laughed at him. They were young and seemed to still be pretty innocent. I think if they saw him doing anything lewd they would have been horrified, embarrassed, etc and would have either tried to pretend they didn’t notice or would try to get away from him quickly.

And, IMO, I don’t think Libby would have filmed him doing this because I think it would have been something she would have quickly turned away from, not tried to capture it on film.

Some people laughed when scared, or nervous too. Not just to mock someone.
They could have laughed because his behavior was odd or even alarming/scared them.
I know a few times I caught someone doing that I have laughed out of completely taken off guard and how ludicrous and inappropriate their behavior was.

 

[MuddyTires]

I'm not from the community and don't know anyone there, so all I have to go on is what I read and hear locals say but I agree with you. It seems like that community has a pervasive desperation to resolve the case and those that are in the community with they had the info that could uravel the mystery.

Ahh....sorry for the typo that I didn't notice until seeing this post quoted. The "with" in the last sentence was supposed to be "wish"!

 

[JnRyan]

I think the fiasco with RL, as well as LE stating that they'd made several arrests that had no connection to the case while investigating various people, is one of the things that could be making someone hesitant to come forward. What if the person who does know something (if said someone exists at all) has something to hide? By coming forward, they could be risking arrest themselves, even if their crime has nothing to do with the murders. IMO, LE should've downplayed the various arrests they'd made. If someone broke the law then they clearly should've been punished for it, but I don't think it did LE any favors to announce that.

I agree. LE didn't handle that very well. The media was at RL's place in no time to film the removal of his vehicle and his arrest. In defense of LE, they bring in 100-200 personnel in a town of 3000 and then there is the nationwide coverage and billboards. That inadvertently created a circus that drew the media and they were on everything LE did. I don't believe anyone in LE had the experience or training in dealing with a media event of that magnitude and it was quickly out of their control. Then they were asked about the number of arrests resulting from tips on this case and they stated they would not turn their back on ANY crime they came across in this case. A person committing a crime - for example, growing some marijuana plants in the middle of their cornfield - is not likely to call in any suspicious activity or persons for fear of drawing attention to themselves.

I hope LE is studying this from a media or public relations perspective and learn from it.

 

[Spy Versus Spy]

This is from last years CrimeCon. I just wanted to post it again because it is discussed in detail how OBG sketch was developed. Just thought it was good to review again.

At about the 22:40 mark.... also at 49:00 LE speaks about cameras in the area (trail cams)

Thank you FinePrint.

So...from the '18 crimecon vid...the older sketch guy was put together by an fbi artist based on at least 2 witnesses who LE believed had seen BG. One at least was a female ( inadvertant 'she'?) and it was this witness that was unhappy with an element of the sketch produced? Is this an accurate summation of the video?

If so, and this is a recurring issue I have, where is the contradictory info in e.g this article coming from?One year after alleged Delphi killer sketch released, here is what we know, and don't:

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

Next person who decides to ridicule another member's theory gets a nice long thread reply ban or TO.

 

[FinePrint]

After re watching last years CrimeCon interview with the girls families I just have to hope that this new direction and new sketch is based on something so undeniable, something so big that OBG sketch is no longer considered relevant. Although I'll add that Carter has said recently something to the effect he may look like a combination of both OBG and NBG sketch ( I think I heard that correctly from him).

The family and so many others have put in such a great deal of work and time getting out the sketch of OBG to every destination they can think of including all counties in the country, college campuses, which they were working on at the time of the interview as well as parks.

Now having to start all over again with the new sketch....I can see why Carter wanted to give them a couple of weeks to digest this new information after the PC in April.

 

[susiQ]

ISP Sgt Holeman has been described as the lead investigator in the case since almost the beginning. His comments on the 2nd anniversary are interesting to reflect back on, maybe a hint of the new direction taken in April and returning focus to Delphi in the hopes “somebody knows this person”.

BBM

Feb 13, 2019

“When it comes to the case, Holeman said they get new tips in every day and it's not only the new tips that detectives are looking at.

"We're going to exhaust all investigative leads on this tip and then we might circle back around and look at it again and we might circle back around look at it again," he said.

And while the case has captured attention around the country and the world, he said the internet detectives and the rumors circulating on the internet don't help the case.
"What we don't want is the public's theories, the public's investigative suggestions," Holeman said.

And those theories that are being constantly called into the tip line slow down investigators.

"We do not want the public to investigate this case. We're asking the public's help to identify the one person that we've called a suspect," he said....”
Delphi, Indiana murders: 2 years later, lead investigator updates case

JMHO, but maybe just maybe, someone in the public investigating this case may come up with that "one tip" they need. It would appear that after two plus years of going down the wrong "alley", they need all the help they can get. Of course, I agree, side by side photos of so-called suspects comparing them to NBG sketch, is not helpful.

 

[sunshineray]

Probably because this is the Delphi thread.

Listen to it, ISP Carter is asked something very specific about the Delphi murders at that Flora case PC and he answers. So it's about the Delphi case also.

 

[susiQ]

Quite a few reasons, really. For one, they were found on his property. He was also not only untruthful as to his whereabouts, but he wasn't meant to be driving at all. LE usually starts with those closest to the case and then fan outwards. Although he wasn't family, he was "close" in that it was his property. It was natural to examine his movements. In the course of investigating, they found things that weren't adding up. He was a POI in the beginning, but that doesn't mean that LE thought he was BG. Perhaps they thought he knew more than he did.

I think the fiasco with RL, as well as LE stating that they'd made several arrests that had no connection to the case while investigating various people, is one of the things that could be making someone hesitant to come forward. What if the person who does know something (if said someone exists at all) has something to hide? By coming forward, they could be risking arrest themselves, even if their crime has nothing to do with the murders. IMO, LE should've downplayed the various arrests they'd made. If someone broke the law then they clearly should've been punished for it, but I don't think it did LE any favors to announce that.

I think this was one of the mistakes they made early on, among others I'm thinking. If the crime called for an arrest, they could have delayed it, so as not to embroil the investigation in rumours right from the get go.

Not long ago in a small city close to us a child went "missing'. Outcome was the child was found, just wandered off. In the course of searching, LE went to every home in the area and requested to search the property. Our friend said, "by all means, but you're going to find some MJ plants in pots on the back deck." LE response, "No worries, that's not what we're here for." Just sayin'.

 

[susiQ]

No, I agree. I don't get it either, and IMO they let the stuff with RL go on for way too long. The only thing I ever really got out of it is that there were tests still being run on certain pieces of evidence so it's possible they were more or less hedging with RL until they had more concrete answers. But dang, he was raked over the coals for such a long time and they did little to nothing to quieten the rumors. I think they've done that with a few people. Even with DN, the statements were kind of wishy washy "we're not interested in him at this time", giving people plenty of room to speculate that things might change in the future. I don't understand it, and I've not really seen anything like it before. I'm trying to be really supportive of LE's efforts on this, especially since there's more than one agency involved and the families appear to be pleased with their efforts, but I have LOTS of questions for when this is all said and done. I'm hoping things will make more sense then.

I had a bit of a soft spot for RL. A year before the girls were murdered, a local man brutally killed a woman and buried her on our best friend's (and my kids' godfather's) farm unbeknownst to him. Once her cell phone was tracked, FBI, state boys, and local LE swarmed his farm and his little piece of heaven that he'd loved for 60 years turned into a huge crime scene. Friend was arrested and LE stayed on him for more than a year. Big legal mess with tons of rumors and whatnot spread throughout local media and chat sites. He got to where he wanted us to spend the night with him because the sound of a vehicle coming up his drive sent him into a panic attack a as it reminded him of LE hauling him to the jail for more questioning. The guy responsible FINALLY went to trial back in January and the case was wrapped up, with our friend never actually being charged with anything, but for the past 3 or 4 years the crime's hung over all our heads and it's been a nightmare. I know what he went through both legally and morally so I always felt a little soft for RL. I know he broke his probation by driving, but he's also a bit of a victim himself since his property will probably never feel the same again. It was hard for me to read about what was going on with him while also having to go through something similar in my own life. I know some people have speculated that BG may have worked for RL or knew him or even framed him, but IMO if there's any link to him at all then it's purely without fault on his part.

Love this post! I feel the same for RL.