Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997

[Meligator]

I think Sally’s point is that her mother could legally be declared dead in absentia —UNLESS, there is some known evidence the police have indicating her mother is alive. It’s not that Sally thinks she is dead or alive—it’s that in attempting to declare her dead, may force police to disclose evidence.

 

[sunnynz]

I think Sally’s point is that her mother could legally be declared dead in absentia —UNLESS, there is some known evidence the police have indicating her mother is alive. It’s not that Sally thinks she is dead or alive—it’s that in attempting to declare her dead, may force police to disclose evidence.

Good point - I’d missed that perspective.

 

[TheOracle66]

As I understand it - Sally thinks something untoward has happened to her mum, maybe someone coerced her or exercised influenced over her with the name change and then she's subsequently met with foul play. That is me interpreting what she's said so far and not me directly quoting her.

The police are saying they think Marion left of her own accord and therefore won't investigate her disappearance. The current detective admits to never having sighted her or spoken to her though. The implication through the redacted documents is that maybe there is some evidence that she did leave but without knowing what that is it's hard to say how much that evidence is bullet proof. So yes, as you say they say she's alive but won't give grounds for an opinion. BUT then the kicker on that is that they still say it's an open case, and we're all wondering what the logic in that is.

All of this is my interpretation of the information we've been given in the podcast.

Gary Sheehan kept saying "Marion's privacy" has to be protected. The police obviously have information to prove she is/was alive. If she is alive and knows about this pod, news articles and facebook, she will almost certainly be embarrassed. It is not a crime to disappear and start again.

 

[sunnynz]

Gary Sheehan kept saying "Marion's privacy" has to be protected. The police obviously have information to prove she is/was alive. If she is alive and knows about this pod, news articles and facebook, she will almost certainly be embarrassed. It is not a crime to disappear and start again.

I know if I were sally I’d take the risk of my mum being embarrassed over the risk that she’d been murdered and no one was being held to account any day. My opinion only.

Detective Sheehan has also says he’s never seen or spoken to Marion, and that just this past week he spent time doing 17 checks on deed polls and drivers licences around the country. (Per latest conversations episode). Why would he do that if he thinks Marion is fine and he wants to protect her privacy?

 

[TheOracle66]

I th

I know if I were sally I’d take the risk of my mum being embarrassed over the risk that she’d been murdered and no one was being held to account any day. My opinion only.

Detective Sheehan has also says he’s never seen or spoken to Marion, and that just this past week he spent time doing 17 checks on deed polls and drivers licences around the country. (Per latest conversations episode). Why would he do that if he thinks Marion is fine and he wants to protect her privacy?

I think Gary is just trying to help Sally. Gary has always stated the 'he' has never spoken to Marion but he has never stated that NO one has ever spoken to her, which I think is strange.

 

[Meligator]

Gary Sheehan kept saying "Marion's privacy" has to be protected. The police obviously have information to prove she is/was alive. If she is alive and knows about this pod, news articles and facebook, she will almost certainly be embarrassed. It is not a crime to disappear and start again.

With the exposure of the podcast and Marion’s picture being shared all over the world, it’s hard to imagine she could be still be alive and have no one come forward as recognizing her.

 

[Cliff Hardy]

With the exposure of the podcast and Marion’s picture being shared all over the world, it’s hard to imagine she could be still be alive and have no one come forward as recognizing her.

We could easily overrate the coverage this is getting."All over the world" is a huge stretch.

From asking around, I can report that only about 1 in 5 people I work with are even aware of Marion's disappearance, and I live in Australia.

Also, there's no guarantee the pictures being published in the media look anything like Marion.

 

[Rosewood]

If she is declared dead she will have access to more information, there will be a coronial investigation and she will see the will which may help the investigation seeing the art work might be listed on it.
The dates are all conflicting in different reports- I personally think the AFP one saying she returned in September makes the most sense as it fits with the phone call being in August in the UK.
The original police statement says she wired $80 000 overseas which may also be fact. It so hard to say.

 

[Meligator]

If she is declared dead she will have access to more information, there will be a coronial investigation and she will see the will which may help the investigation seeing the art work might be listed on it.
The dates are all conflicting in different reports- I personally think the AFP one saying she returned in September makes the most sense as it fits with the phone call being in August in the UK.
The original police statement says she wired $80 000 overseas which may also be fact. It so hard to say.

The conflicting info about timeline/banks really complicates piecing the story together. Is it possible the money she was taking out in small amounts was then that cash placed into a separate account (under name remakel) & transferred overseas. Done in order to hide where money was going.

I can’t get past the Luxembourg/Byron Bay Area connections. Too many connections to seem coincidental. I really think she may have been a victim of a scam. Someone who resembles her could have come into Australia using the Florabella passport—taken her money — and then returned oversees using their own passport.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

https://www.smh.com.au/entertainmen...ve-a-22-year-old-mystery-20190701-p522xj.html

Can three million podcast listeners solve a 22-year-old mystery?

Producer Alison Sandy describes the podcast as “an investigation [that] is playing out in real time” following leads from the “3 million sleuths” who listen to the show.

 

[Cliff Hardy]

Conversations 10 is up.

 

[VelmaDinkley]

Conversations 10 is up.

Listening now. I still don't know what to think.

 

[Mel 1303]

I'm a bit behind.

Thoughts from conversations 9.

Sally made the missing persons report at 4pm. On the same day, at 4:37, it was filed. Sally questions how an investigation could have been done in that time- I cant see why that indicated an investigation has been done? Isn't that just Child's filing the notes that he has made from his conversations with Sally? Doesn't sound like he was taking it overly seriously, or correctly recording Sally's information, but it seems logical to me that at 4:37 Child's filed his notes from the "occurrence" he just received from Sally.

Apparently the Salvos said that Marion's identification came from the bank security. I don't think this means a bank security agent, I believe it means that the id was made through bank security processes. In the conversation it is stated that they don't believe the Salvos contacted Marion, that the info came from the police. This may well be right. However, this raises a big issue for me.

In the phone call from the Salvos to Sally's grandfather, it was stated that Marion had said to stop looking for her, and to tell Sally that she is angry about the car. If the Salvo's got all their information from the police, then this means that the police did indeed follow up on Sally's report. This would fit perfectly with the phone call Sally received from the police within a week of making the report, saying that her mother had been located and did not want contact. It sounds like the officer did not sight her, but received enough identifying information from the bank manager to satisfy him that she was indeed the person she said she was. He hasn't recorded it (although in an earlier episode a former officer contacted the team and said this was actually normal, that such info wasn't always recorded). The thing is, even if he did record it, Sally is not entitled legally to that information. It is not about Sally having the right to know, or it being in the public interest. Fact is, if she chose to leave, it doesn't matter how much it sucks, it would be breaking the law to share that file with Sally.

As far as Gary Sheehan saying he cant do more for operational reasons, I imagine his superiors have ordered him to have no further involvement after his depiction so far.

I do hope that Sally is able to learn what has happened to her mum, one way or another. I haven't agreed with all of Bryans opinions so far, however I do agree that it might be legally ok to disappear and leave your family in limbo, but it is not morally right.

Listening to Conversations 10 now.

 

[Mel 1303]

Conversation 10

I completely agree that withdrawing large levels of money would have raised an immediate red flag- which lends a lot of credence to there being good reasons why the police were satisfied to state that Marion had been identified based on bank security processes. As Madonna stated, there would have been a lot of interaction with at least the teller, and probably the manager.

Bank customers are entitled to privacy. Commonwealth bank cant just come out and "redeem" themselves by handing out confidential information about one of their customers. Did the podcast really just tell people to start harassing the commonwealth bank to break the law?????? I understand Sally's frustration, but what the hell are Alison, Bryan and Madonna doing being so incredibly unprofessional? If I had been a teller, there is no way I would put myself at legal risk by contacting a podcast where journalists have had no issue throwing people under the bus.

The Florabella link- there is a Florabella Pass walk in the Blue Mountains. Runs right by a primary school, then becomes Florabella Street.

As far as Marion being keen to get stuff back to TSS- it sounds like Marion was very anxious about things at the school. It is very clear just from the other teachers interviewed that it wasn't a happy place to work- without even considering what some students were enduring. She possibly just wanted that door closed. Something certainly unsettled Marion in the months before she left- I wonder if extreme workplace stress has lead to stress, anxiety and possibly a breakdown? Teaching is a significantly more difficult and stressful job than many people appreciate.

 

[Cliff Hardy]

Conversation 10

I completely agree that withdrawing large levels of money would have raised an immediate red flag- which lends a lot of credence to there being good reasons why the police were satisfied to state that Marion had been identified based on bank security processes. As Madonna stated, there would have been a lot of interaction with at least the teller, and probably the manager.

Bank customers are entitled to privacy. Commonwealth bank cant just come out and "redeem" themselves by handing out confidential information about one of their customers. Did the podcast really just tell people to start harassing the commonwealth bank to break the law?????? I understand Sally's frustration, but what the hell are Alison, Bryan and Madonna doing being so incredibly unprofessional? If I had been a teller, there is no way I would put myself at legal risk by contacting a podcast where journalists have had no issue throwing people under the bus.

The Florabella link- there is a Florabella Pass walk in the Blue Mountains. Runs right by a primary school, then becomes Florabella Street.

As far as Marion being keen to get stuff back to TSS- it sounds like Marion was very anxious about things at the school. It is very clear just from the other teachers interviewed that it wasn't a happy place to work- without even considering what some students were enduring. She possibly just wanted that door closed. Something certainly unsettled Marion in the months before she left- I wonder if extreme workplace stress has lead to stress, anxiety and possibly a breakdown? Teaching is a significantly more difficult and stressful job than many people appreciate.

I must admit I cringe when Alison and Bryan invite people they already know are reluctant to make contact with them with the reassurances along the lines of 'it will be handled discretely and go no further.'

Yeah, right. You can trust us, we are journalists

 

[sunnynz]

Just finished listening to Conversations 10.

I really feel the frustration of Sally and the podcast team. It is utterly obvious that the police have doubts about Marion's wellbeing. The detective has been investigating deed polls etc as recently as within the last week or two. There is absolutely no reason for him to do that IMO if the police believe Marion is safe and well and it's 'case closed'.

So based on that - the fact that the detective is doing some investigation on the case - why will they not follow up on the many many possible avenues of investigation as laid out in recent episodes??:
- follow up on the last recorded Medicare transaction that Marion made in Grafton - find out where Marion's records went after the Grafton practice that she visited closed and see what info is in there in regards to address details etc.
- find out who the bank teller/s was/were who served Marion and question them more on who was making the withdrawals.
- request copies of the withdrawal slips from Comm Bank to see signatures and any other info.
- interview Lesley to see what more information she can share
- request flight manifests for the flights Marion would have taken and see who she was seated with.
- speak to the real estate agent/solicitor who handled Marion's house sale and will

Let's view it from Sally's perspective - forget about the feelings one may have about journalistic integrity and motives... Her mother has been missing for over twenty years. She has been fighting to get progress on her mother's case for that long. She has given the police EVERY chance to do their work and this has gotten her absolutely nowhere. She is fully entitled to pursue every avenue she can - if she doesn't then who will? Why not put the call out for the community to help track down the bank tellers? Why not go and knock on the door of the real estate agent and see what she remembers. If she's not going to get traction by waiting to have the police go through official channels then what is she to do - sit on her hands and do nothing? Clearly that will get her nowhere. Good on her for fighting for answers and trying any avenue that she can, I say.

If the police had clearly stated that they had seen or spoken to Marion and that she was safe but didn't want to be contacted then I would thoroughly agree that Sally would need to back down and respect that (as sickening as I think that would be for a mother to do that to their child). But the fact is that the police have said they haven't seen her or spoken to her. They clearly don't know where she is otherwise the detective wouldn't be looking up public records trying to track her down.

 

[Mel 1303]

Just finished listening to Conversations 10.

So based on that - the fact that the detective is doing some investigation on the case - why will they not follow up on the many many possible avenues of investigation as laid out in recent episodes??:
- follow up on the last recorded Medicare transaction that Marion made in Grafton - find out where Marion's records went after the Grafton practice that she visited closed and see what info is in there in regards to address details etc.
- find out who the bank teller/s was/were who served Marion and question them more on who was making the withdrawals.
- request copies of the withdrawal slips from Comm Bank to see signatures and any other info.
- interview Lesley to see what more information she can share
- request flight manifests for the flights Marion would have taken and see who she was seated with.
- speak to the real estate agent/solicitor who handled Marion's house sale and will

Let's view it from Sally's perspective - forget about the feelings one may have about journalistic integrity and motives... Her mother has been missing for over twenty years. She has been fighting to get progress on her mother's case for that long. She has given the police EVERY chance to do their work and this has gotten her absolutely nowhere. She is fully entitled to pursue every avenue she can - if she doesn't then who will? Why not put the call out for the community to help track down the bank tellers? Why not go and knock on the door of the real estate agent and see what she remembers. If she's not going to get traction by waiting to have the police go through official channels then what is she to do - sit on her hands and do nothing? Clearly that will get her nowhere. Good on her for fighting for answers and trying any avenue that she can, I say.

First of all- I 100000% agree with your last statement. Good on her. If I went missing, I would want a Sally in my corner. I don't always like the way this podcast goes about things, but Sally had to do something, and what other options at this point does she have? She has certainly raised awareness of her mothers absence.

As for your other points, the police may well have done these checks, and have this information. It is a frustrating reality for so many families of missing persons that the police have information that the family isn't privy to. I struggle here with the fact that Marion's case is either open or it isn't. If it is closed, withholding information for operational reasons only makes sense if they KNOW that Marion walked away. If so, surely they can give Sally enough of a clear answer that she can accept it and move on (as rough as that is). If they don't KNOW that Marion walked away, then surely the case should be open? In which case, Sally still wont be given the information, but at least Marion would be back on the missing persons register.

For me, all the answers lie with the bank. The bank dealt with the last contact that we know of (either with Marion or someone they believed to be Marion). The bank probably had the most up to date 1998 address/phone number. I doubt the podcast will get that information, but I sincerely hope the police have.

 

[Shany]

I said this before,(pages ago) and I will say it again........
NSW Police - Major Fail!
If you have followed the case, as I have, then you will know that Marion has never been sighted by the NSW police.
They have done nothing to find her, and they are not helping her daughter to find her.

 

[Mel 1303]

I said this before,(pages ago) and I will say it again........
NSW Police - Major Fail!
If you have followed the case, as I have, then you will know that Marion has never been sighted by the NSW police.
They have done nothing to find her, and they are not helping her daughter to find her.

I have followed the case. Not as much as others, but Marion first came onto my radar in 2013 when there were reports in local media saying that Marion had studied at the Armidale Teachers College, when she was still Marion Wilson. According to the podcast, this is wrong- she studied in Wagga Wagga. I have asked on the facebook page about this discrepancy, and heard nothing. The journalist who wrote the story was contacted by Sally- this has niggled at me since the podcast started. Why the misinformation? Is it misinformation, or just incomplete information? What is the tie to Armidale, given that the crime stoppers tip said she was buried in Armidale?

As far as the police doing nothing- we all know they didn't see her. Someone spoke to her- hence the "tell Sally I am angry about the car" statement. Probably the bank manager. Gary Sheehan inherited a case with flaws, and has investigated with what he has. He has found the crimestoppers call, and organised a search. It was his investigation that lead to the discovery that Marion had changed her name by deed poll. His investigation found that she has not changed her name again. His investigation proved that the passport with the name Florabella never left the country again. He delivered his findings to Sally, in person, after showing her the respect of driving to her home and not making a phone call. He, in confidence, left more information than he should have on a table, while taking a bathroom break, to give Sally more information than he was meant to. For which he was outed publicly. Maybe a whole lot more could and should have been done, but to say he has done nothing is, in my opinion, not fair.

 

[TheOracle66]

If the files are released, I feel here will be more information that that may indicate Marion decided to start a new life, ie interviews with Lesley, bank manager, security guard and other people. I think it is extremely unfair for people to continually bag out the police until the whole file is released unredacted. It would have been better if the podcast was made after the file is release because as lot of details are probably more accurate in the file. One thing I will say though, is that Sally and her mother were obviously not close. If they were a lot of the recent searches conducted would not have been necessary, ie real estate, legal will, location of storage items and the fact that the redirection of mail went to Lesley and not Sally. All strange.