Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #116

[tresir2012]

And not to beat a dead horse, but the fact that the girls were not found at her house, on C.R. 625, should have raised alarms very early on.

Imagine if the girls had seen BG way off towards the other end of the bridge, and they decided to get off the bridge, down to the drive, walked up the drive to C.R. 625, and to Anna's house, they would be alive today. It's a short walk.

JMO

I get the impression from Anna in her interviews that the girls did not know that private road turned into the road to her house. They just knew it was private land. JMO

 

[sunsetbeach]

Iirc, also in the livestream that Kelsi broadcast to clarify some points, she addressed her own statement about 10-20 kids. Again iirc, she amended her intended meaning to ....her having KNOWLEDGE OF 10-20 PEOPLE BEING ON THE TRAIL THAT DAY ( Capitals by Me)



Hth , even though imho the two diff meanings seem way apart

How can you amend something like that? She says there were 10-20 kids there when she dropped them off, Renner says “Oh really, there were that many people there?” and Kelsi nodded her head yes and then said when she returned later (after DG couldn’t reach Libby) she says there weren’t as many kids there as when she had dropped them off.

She either saw 10-20 kids or she didn’t so why even say that?? Yes, she now says it’s a rumor that she started and she’s sorry
It makes no sense unless someone told her later to amend that for reasons we don’t know.

Just like she said CP was with someone name M but then CP texts her during that video and says he was at work.

I know she’s trying to help but some of her comments/statements cause confusion imo.

 

[pixiepixel]

The worst thing that the police could have done is to release the sketches (composite drawings). All it does is flood the tip line with well meaning people giving worthless information with no one to investigate the “tips”. In most cases these sketches are the result of mayors, police chiefs, or other high ranking officials wanting the public to believe that the police are all over the case and a solution is coming soon.

Most experienced investigators shudder when the suggestion of a sketch comes up. I had a major case in the 1980’s sometime where I was ordered to have a sketch made. After it was released I never got out of the building for a week.

Agreed. Sketches only seem to cause public awareness to skyrocket, for better or for worse, IMO. And make it easier for Facebook detectives to prove that BG is actually their neighbor's dogsitter (/s)

What strikes me about the two sketches is that the first one was so detailed. Unlike most perp sketches (including the new one), it looked like a real person; I could commit that face to memory and recognize him in public easily. Compare that to the second one, which looks like they told the artist, "hey, we need a white male, ambiguous age, with short wiry hair" and that was the result. This makes me think LE had a specific person in mind, not just an eyewitness description, when they made the first sketch. MOO. Maybe the first sketch was just drawn by a better artist.

OTOH, the first sketch looks so much like BG in the video...maybe they commissioned an artist to do a sketch based on whatever blurry details they could make out?

 

[pixiepixel]

You think he has killed before. Do you think he has killed since? I don't think he has killed before, but I think he has possibly killed since, maybe more than once. MOO

What do other posters think?

I'm on the opposite side. He has probably killed or assaulted a woman before. Maybe doesn't have a record because it went unreported - his victim was homeless, a sex worker, or someone else who is usually overlooked.

Unless he was already a prolific serial killer, I do not think he's killed again. The knowledge that he has been recorded audibly and visually and is the perpetrator of one of the biggest unsolved crimes in the nation should motivate him to stay under the radar.

Regardless of whether ISP actually knows who he is or not, they have done a good job of making it seem like they're right on his tail. Whoever BG is, I think he's crumbling under the pressure of possibly being caught + having to tamp down his horrific urges to avoid arrest. JMO.

 

[Charlot123]

Yeah. There definitely seems to have been some kind of young peoples' "event" going on out there. And, LE probably now realizes they dropped the ball on this line of investigation....perhaps thinking "not our kids, not these kids, all of these kids are good kids"....or perhaps due to some creativity at the CS on the part of the perps.

If it is so, the YBG is sort of a “composite” portrait. And the BG from the video may not resemble him at all.

 

[almagata]

"John Douglas, The Mindhunter FBI profiler, said it best when he said that someone just does not wake up one day and commit a double homicide like this.".

I have to respectfully disagree with John Douglas on this point.

We have many examples of angry young men committing multiple homicides as their first murderous act just in 2019 and 2018 alone.

 

[Ozoner]

"John Douglas, The Mindhunter FBI profiler, said it best when he said that someone just does not wake up one day and commit a double homicide like this."

I have to respectfully disagree with John Douglas on this point.

We have many examples of angry young men committing multiple homicides as their first murderous act just in 2019 and 2018 alone.

I agree. Douglas plays the percentages, but he isn't always right--depending on how you look at it. The perp may have been fantasizing about doing something like this for a long time, which would mean that he didn't just "wake up one day and commit a double homicide," but he may not have murdered anyone before.
Was Douglas permitted to see the crime scene photos? Any profiler worth his salt will tell you that it's well nigh impossible to develop an accurate profile without viewing the crime scene or photos of it.

 

[Falling Down]

I think it’s important to keep keeping our eyes out for other potentially related crimes. We don’t know of course how far he traveled IF he traveled to commit this atrocity but I would still be keeping my eyes open in other neighboring states and cities within a few hours drive jmo.

—-

ETA:

Another thing. While we haven’t heard anything since the last PC in April, that PC sure did stir things up and attract more attention, moo.

I've looked at hundreds of cases from this region of the country, trying to nail down trail and murders in rural areas, over the last 20 years or so. First off, they're rare, at least when the circumstances are random in nature, like the A&L murders. Most unsolved ones I've found are in IL, there are a few weird ones in KY, and the same for southern MI.

Has he killed before? I think so, but only the FBI might know any connections to other similar unsolved crimes, which makes me wonder if that's why the 6,000+ billboard deal happened early on in this case. That and the fact it's a double murder of two juveniles I'm sure brought about an extra sense of urgency.

No news from LE sources in the last 2.5 years of possible related crimes, but to me that doesn't necessarily mean there are no connections to other cases.

JMO

 

[Falling Down]

I get the impression from Anna in her interviews that the girls did not know that private road turned into the road to her house. They just knew it was private land. JMO

Thanks for the head's up. That sucks, but any of us who remember being that age and being out in the woods and what have you can relate.

I hung out with some friends at a nice public park while in high school, maybe twice. Years later, in my late-30's, I went looking for it. Knew generally where the park was, but didn't know the exact streets to drive down to find it, kind of a maze of streets. At that age I had to be lead there by friends, but I would not have known the general area around it, despite it being in a city.

I can see that happening with A&L with this old bridge in a gorge out in the country, being young teens. You've been there, but might not know what's really all around it.

Food for thought, and it ties in with public safety.

 

[Ravenmoon]

Agreed. I don't think he would have handled it other than to toss it.

The police have the phone if I remember correctly. The video/audio is also , obviously , available to them. Having said that , it is likely that the evidence they have was stored in icloud and was recovered that way.

Here is how it works:
Method 1: Recover from iCloud and iTunes backup
Apple has this remarkable feature in which all iPhone data is automatically saved in iCloud and iTunes backup. You just you need to sign in to iCloud or iTunes through your Apple ID on the new iOS device. Next, select and transfer the desired files to the new device from the list of available backups in iCloud/iTunes.

Method 2: Recover from third-party application
In case you are unable to restore photos from the iCloud and iTunes backup files or have deleted your desired files from the backup, opt for a third-party application to recover photos or videos from your water damaged iPhone.
From a plethora of iPhone data recovery software available in the market, experts recommend to pick only the trusted and secure data recovery tool, specially designed for the iOS device.

Information is from:
How to Fix & Retrieve Pictures/Videos From a Water Damaged iPhone That Won't Turn on

So, it probably was in the creek.. and my guess is that Libby threw it there.

AMOO

 

[Ravenmoon]

Am I the only one here who still believes LE has no idea who BG is? It seems many people here think LE knows who he is but doesn’t have enough evidence to prosecute - and you guys may certainly be correct about that, considering that strange, strange, April press conference...

Honestly, I think they know who he is.
My feeling, my gut says that someone is giving him an alibi.
Look at the new sketch,
I am NOT pointing out anyone specific .
That sketch even has a light mole , or freckle if you look closely.
Mistake?
Somewhat likely , highly improbable.
To have something like a freckle , or a mole added?
It is screaming, "We know who you are."

AMOO

 

[Charlot123]

I have to respectfully disagree with John Douglas on this point.

We have many examples of angry young men committing multiple homicides as their first murderous act just in 2019 and 2018 alone.
I agree. Douglas plays the percentages, but he isn't always right--depending on how you look at it. The perp may have been fantasizing about doing something like this for a long time, which would mean that he didn't just "wake up one day and commit a double homicide," but he may not have murdered anyone before.
Was Douglas permitted to see the crime scene photos? Any profiler worth his salt will tell you that it's well nigh impossible to develop an accurate profile without viewing the crime scene or photos of it.

I think that that angry young man was also ambitious and had his life planned ahead, and maybe the murders were those of opportunity, and the fear, especially if he had dated one of the girls for a short time.

I would not be surprised if someone helped him, but maybe not fully understanding how it would end.

I am wondering if the participants are now paralyzed by fear, and don’t communicate, and the main load of guilt is felt by their younger siblings, or friends, who might be guessing, and feel extremely depressed because of it.

I wonder if the older relatives who know play extremely negative role, actually preventing those who know from talking.

Because if the SK was roaming around Delphi, and there were 10-20 kids around the bridge, these kids would run to report.

I also think that if there are more tragedies to happen, not of violence but of depression, the fault will be that of adults who might know but keep silence.

MOO

 

[PaulaDC]

How can you amend something like that? She says there were 10-20 kids there when she dropped them off, Renner says “Oh really, there were that many people there?” and Kelsi nodded her head yes and then said when she returned later (after DG couldn’t reach Libby) she says there weren’t as many kids there as when she had dropped them off.

She either saw 10-20 kids or she didn’t so why even say that?? Yes, she now says it’s a rumor that she started and she’s sorry
It makes no sense unless someone told her later to amend that for reasons we don’t know.

Just like she said CP was with someone name M but then CP texts her during that video and says he was at work.

I know she’s trying to help but some of her comments/statements cause confusion imo.

In one early on timeline update it claims CP came home at 5:30 from work at Subaru and and they took off to search. Wide variations of timelines.

 

[pixiepixel]

I've looked at hundreds of cases from this region of the country, trying to nail down trail and murders in rural areas, over the last 20 years or so. First off, they're rare, at least when the circumstances are random in nature, like the A&L murders. Most unsolved ones I've found are in IL, there are a few weird ones in KY, and the same for southern MI.

This case is eerily similar to the murders of Lyric Cook-Morrissey and Elizabeth Collins in 2012 in Evansdale, Iowa. Two young girls who disappeared while out in the open (riding their bikes), during the daytime; were later found murdered, and the suspect more than likely did not know them personally. As Michael Whelan points out, between 1974 and 2012, the FBI logged only 15 cases similar to Evansdale and Delphi - random perp, two victims taken at once, middle of the day.

But as striking as those similarities are, surely this can't be the same guy. Picking "double-abduction of random targets in plain sight" as your MO is beyond stupid.

 

[Falling Down]

This case is eerily similar to the murders of Lyric Cook-Morrissey and Elizabeth Collins in 2012 in Evansdale, Iowa. Two young girls who disappeared while out in the open (riding their bikes), during the daytime; were later found murdered, and the suspect more than likely did not know them personally. As Michael Whelan points out, between 1974 and 2012, the FBI logged only 15 cases similar to Evansdale and Delphi - random perp, two victims taken at once, middle of the day.

But as striking as those similarities are, surely this can't be the same guy. Picking "double-abduction of random targets in plain sight" as your MO is beyond stupid.

Other things about this case which I think are interesting are the time of year, location, and the fact he killed them there by the creek.

I think often times abduction cases revolve around being forced or enticed into a vehicle, then things go bad from there. A&L were out in the open in a secluded part of a gorge, when BG abducted and then walked them to the place where he killed them. Again, I think some of the circumstances surrounding this case really spooked the FBI and other agencies.

JMO

 

[sunshineray]

[QUOTE="John Douglas, The Mindhunter FBI profiler, said it best when he said that someone just does not wake up one day and commit a double homicide like this.".

We have many examples of angry young men committing multiple homicides as their first murderous act just in 2019 and 2018 alone.[/QUOTE]


I think what he probably meant by that was more along the lines of there were signs of what was to come. Behaviors, others acts of temper and violence. Maybe even some social, sexual clues. An average, normal human being doesn't just wake up and decide to kill. There are unnoticed signs. JMO

 

[sunshineray]

The police have the phone if I remember correctly. The video/audio is also , obviously , available to them. Having said that , it is likely that the evidence they have was stored in icloud and was recovered that way.

Here is how it works:
Method 1: Recover from iCloud and iTunes backup
Apple has this remarkable feature in which all iPhone data is automatically saved in iCloud and iTunes backup. You just you need to sign in to iCloud or iTunes through your Apple ID on the new iOS device. Next, select and transfer the desired files to the new device from the list of available backups in iCloud/iTunes.

Method 2: Recover from third-party application
In case you are unable to restore photos from the iCloud and iTunes backup files or have deleted your desired files from the backup, opt for a third-party application to recover photos or videos from your water damaged iPhone.
From a plethora of iPhone data recovery software available in the market, experts recommend to pick only the trusted and secure data recovery tool, specially designed for the iOS device.

Information is from:
How to Fix & Retrieve Pictures/Videos From a Water Damaged iPhone That Won't Turn on

So, it probably was in the creek.. and my guess is that Libby threw it there.

AMOO

Interesting as I'm on android, never had an iPhone. If you reset an iPhone do you then lose all that data saved to the iCloud?

 

[sleuther0192837465]

The police have the phone if I remember correctly. The video/audio is also , obviously , available to them. Having said that , it is likely that the evidence they have was stored in icloud and was recovered that way.

Here is how it works:
Method 1: Recover from iCloud and iTunes backup
Apple has this remarkable feature in which all iPhone data is automatically saved in iCloud and iTunes backup. You just you need to sign in to iCloud or iTunes through your Apple ID on the new iOS device. Next, select and transfer the desired files to the new device from the list of available backups in iCloud/iTunes.

Method 2: Recover from third-party application
In case you are unable to restore photos from the iCloud and iTunes backup files or have deleted your desired files from the backup, opt for a third-party application to recover photos or videos from your water damaged iPhone.
From a plethora of iPhone data recovery software available in the market, experts recommend to pick only the trusted and secure data recovery tool, specially designed for the iOS device.

Information is from:
How to Fix & Retrieve Pictures/Videos From a Water Damaged iPhone That Won't Turn on

So, it probably was in the creek.. and my guess is that Libby threw it there.

AMOO

You are correct. LE does have possession of Libby’s phone. (Libby had an iPhone 6/6s.)
LE stated it was found “near the girls”.
I posted the article here many times & am sure it is in the media thread somewhere.
MOO
ETA:
This is not the same article, it is worded differently, but it is confirmed.
ISP: More audio recovered from slain Delphi teen's phone



Sgt. Holeman tells us investigators recovered more audio from Libby’s phone, which was found with the girls at the crime scene.

 

[Fizzle]

Interesting as I'm on android, never had an iPhone. If you reset an iPhone do you then lose all that data saved to the iCloud?

You lose everything UNLESS you back it up. You can back up to a computer or to the cloud.

 

[Fizzle]

You are correct. LE does have possession of Libby’s phone. (Libby had an iPhone 6/6s.)
LE stated it was found “near the girls”.
I posted the article here many times & am sure it is in the media thread somewhere.
MOO
ETA:
This is not the same article, it is worded differently, but it is confirmed.
ISP: More audio recovered from slain Delphi teen's phone



Sgt. Holeman tells us investigators recovered more audio from Libby’s phone, which was found with the girls at the crime scene.

Right, but they still could have retrieved it from the creek. I know they used a special agency to retrieve data from the phone.