Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #125

[mimimarge]

dbm - duplicate

 

[sunshineray]

The way it would go is that LE would be completely lost like they are now, but everyone would think they are on the right path because without the Liberty German video no one would question what the police put out to the public. Timelines would be all over the place and people would probably be pointing fingers at anyone and everyone based on suspicion and sketches. With no witnesses it would take some type of accidental tip or genetic genealogy DNA or another link forensically to another crime to solve this case.

It really seems like LE is trying to act like someone who tells you that the suspect has bluish, brownish, green eyes with blondish brownish reddish dark hair so that when the suspect is eventually found they can try and find some way to explain away the sketches. The man could be old or he could be young or he could be a combination like middle-aged. He could have a hat or he may not have a hat. He may have curly hair or he may not have curly hair.

I think that at least the video was the truth. It was trying to point everyone in the right direction.

What if the right direction involves more than one bad man, either directly involved, indirectly involved (as in after the fact alibis) or just another lurking jerk who happened to be there that day, was seen acting weird and is now also a sketch? You're right, Libby's video is the truth that happened that afternoon. It just might not be the whole truth of participation.

I just can't help thinking, is there maybe an organized group of deviants in the area. A group like that could give individuals the feeling of bold autonomy within a safety net of a group to commit such a bold daylight abductions and murders. Just all suppositions.

 

[sunshineray]

I did not know this information. So Liberty German was trying to be covert when she took the video. The real question is what made her so aware that this person on the bridge could present a problem? We can only guess.

She may have been trying to get him on video thinking to show her Grandpa later the creepy guy on the trails.

I don't think either of the girls, because of their age, really thought there was acute danger in BG's approach. Were they uncomfortable, yes. Abby wants to move away from the bridge, Libby says they can't the trail ends and in her unease decides to get the weirdo approaching on video.

Mayve if they'd been a few years older, they would have just ran through people's property while calling DG to get them at a different spot, on a different road.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

While LE has no obligation to convince the public that they are working to solve this case, I sure wish they would.

Maybe they are obligated to do just that. While we certainly want them to handle the investigation professionally, LE does technically work for the public, being the people of Indiana and since the FBI is involved, everybody in the US.

 

[Charlot123]

Maybe they are obligated to do just that. While we certainly want them to handle the investigation professionally, LE does technically work for the public, being the people of Indiana and since the FBI is involved, everybody in the US.

Here is what I am thinking today. This unsolved case generated a lot of publicity, money, and maybe, God willing, there will be a park.

In my mind, I do not suspect the family, and I don’t think that DC is witholding some information intentionally. I think the case is simply above his head. I don’t think any celebrity is involved, and I don’t think it is someone powerful enough to shut people up.

But because the case generated such publicity, I shall not be surprised if someone who knows slightly more - you know, just one critical fact - in a couple of years will come to the case to solve it. It is not the situation of malicious intent, rather, the plan to further own career.

And then, we shall have another Paul Hole.

This is why I think they need to provide “fresh eyes” now.

Anyone wants to bet? I give this case two years, and then someone, very local, and not in any way related to the criminals, will get really known. Maybe get an own show.

 

[Charlot123]

In my occupation, everyone was an auditor, so diversity was limited to what audits they participated on - similar to having all participants being LE officers. (I did however, participate in a major software acquisition where we had 50-100 persons - budget, local production, major production (above the local level), IT, management - and the results were interesting.) A brainstorming session involving other than or in addition to LE? That might lead to interesting thoughts and questions.

Everyone, from that pancake scene, needs to be interrogated again. Not because I suspect anyone, but for inconsistencies, as human memory is feeble. Everyone who contributed to the known narrative needs to be interviewed again. If someone was in some way organizing the searches, diverting the groups, these people especially. All groups searching at different places that night. It has to go from the “tails” they missed that day, not from the tip 3 years later. But all missed tips need to be followed. All people manning the hotline from day one. All social medias posted or deleted that day. Whoever first reposted that IG picture of Abby. The people who could be making plans with the girls, who were around them, their known friends and foes.

DC said he did not know the middle part? He won’t get it from the perpetrator. But maybe they could cover some gaps if they started anew?

It has to be a new group. Merely because DC, nice man as he is, has constantly violated any boundaries. I don’t know who he views as poi, but I can see that he treats witnesses as personal friends. He introduces personal views into the conferences, and he is not a faith-based therapist, he is a government official. “Unprofessional” is the word.

 

[St. Anthony2017]

Here is what I am thinking today. This unsolved case generated a lot of publicity, money, and maybe, God willing, there will be a park.

In my mind, I do not suspect the family, and I don’t think that DC is witholding some information intentionally. I think the case is simply above his head. I don’t think any celebrity is involved, and I don’t think it is someone powerful enough to shut people up.

But because the case generated such publicity, I shall not be surprised if someone who knows slightly more - you know, just one critical fact - in a couple of years will come to the case to solve it. It is not the situation of malicious intent, rather, the plan to further own career.

And then, we shall have another Paul Hole.

This is why I think they need to provide “fresh eyes” now.

Anyone wants to bet? I give this case two years, and then someone, very local, and not in any way related to the criminals, will get really known. Maybe get an own show.

I hope it’s someone on here that figures out the missing piece!

 

[Justice101]

Right, the BTK killer was a psychopathic sadist, and he was active in his church, owned a home, had a wife and children, had gone to college. He was not some weird guy living in with Mom.

yes, and he spoke "matter of factly" with no emotion. These were not real human beings to him.. just objects.

 

[JnRyan]

Has anyone heard the FBI agent Mary Ellen O'toole's profile from the podcast "Down the Hill" Chapter 9?
She described the crime as sadistic (I think she had access to crime scene photos taken by first responders). She made it seem as though sadism was most likely tied to psycopathy. He was an opportunistic psycopath.
Psycopaths are incredibly confident. She pointed out that he was really ballsy in choosing an outdoor area to commit the crimes. Anyone could have accidentally seen him. And his voice on the recording doesn't sound stressed or excited at all.
This whole time I've pictured a pathetic guy living in his mom's basement in little Delphi, with no social life. I was totally wrong. This guy is confident and probably successful in his job, and likely has a family. I bet he goes to church (whatever happened to The Shack reference)? Does he work at a church?

Speaking of psychopaths... I think Jim Clemente said that psycopaths can be very competitive, and this can be expressed through sports. Are there any competitive sports for adults in Delphi like tennis or bowling? Or maybe collecting classic cars/watches/trucks? I'm picturing Bobby Axlerod from Billions. Just a thought.

I also read this today:

"Likewise, rapists are more likely to reoffend violently rather than sexually. A meta-analysis conducted by Hanson and Bussiere (1998) found that of 1,839 rapists, 19 percent (n = 349) sexually recidivated and 22 percent (n = 405) violently recidivated over an average follow-up of five years."
​

If we had unlimited resources and money, I'd love to test the DNA of Delphi's violent offenders for the forseeable future until we get a match.

A good read is "Snakes in Suits: When Psychopaths Go To Work" by Paul Babiak and Robert Hare. (Hare is the Canadian criminal psychologist who helped create the psychopathy checklist.) Dr. Hare also wrote another book where poses the theory that most psychopaths are not killers and are in fact very successful in their chosen profession. I had a chance to hear Dr. Babiak speak at a conference on fraud detection and his statistics from the book are enlightening.

Yes, a certain amount of confidence in this guy - I can see that. Of course, he could have just been incredibly bold that day and VERY lucky. But I also see the possibility that this guy has a great deal of self-confidence and could outwardly appear normal. I don't which of the profilers said it (Mary Ellen O'Toole?) but they stated this killer could have done this and gone back home, ordered take out and sat at the dinner table with family or friends like nothing happened.

 

[Justice101]

I believe they saw him before they got the bridge during their walk. Probably on the main trail, shortly after being dropped off.

I'd be spooked, too, not only by someone coming from the opposite end of the bridge, which is 850 long, especially if I'd already seen them.

JMO

Or... they didn't see him and suddenly he shows up right behind them coming across the bridge. They would have known there was no way for him to reach the bridge that quickly unless he was hiding in the woods before that.

Something triggered her to video him. He may have been walking too fast/deliberate or like I said showed up way too soon or creeped them out earlier like you suggest.

 

[somequestions]

What if the right direction involves more than one bad man, either directly involved, indirectly involved (as in after the fact alibis) or just another lurking jerk who happened to be there that day, was seen acting weird and is now also a sketch? You're right, Libby's video is the truth that happened that afternoon. It just might not be the whole truth of participation.

I just can't help thinking, is there maybe an organized group of deviants in the area. A group like that could give individuals the feeling of bold autonomy within a safety net of a group to commit such a bold daylight abductions and murders. Just all suppositions.

Every video should be viewed within the context of how and why it was taken. Are there 2 people involved? Until the case is solved it remains a possibility. However, I think they if they had DNA then they would possibly have two DNA profiles.

I do not like to discuss theories that have very little basis in fact. So theories concerning the family or the property owner where the bodies were found or drug dealers are completely baseless theories that are just guesses by people.

I could come up with a theory that maybe it was a Delphi city official or a next door neighbor to one of the girls. All that would be is another guess. Theories where the only real argument is that you cannot deny that it could be a possibility are not worth discussing because they lead no where. I guarantee you that if people send these type of theories to police they just delete them.

Here is some common sense. The family along with the property owner are people that are known to the police. Does anybody really think the police would not eliminate people closest to the girls and the crime scene first? The problem in this case is police not knowing who the bridge guy is.

My theory is that after over 3 1/2 years police are still searching for the person who murdered Abigail Williams and Liberty German on February 13, 2017.

 

[sunshineray]

Every video should be viewed within the context of how and why it was taken. Are there 2 people involved? Until the case is solved it remains a possibility. However, I think they if they had DNA then they would possibly have two DNA profiles.

I do not like to discuss theories that have very little basis in fact. So theories concerning the family or the property owner where the bodies were found or drug dealers are completely baseless theories that are just guesses by people.

I could come up with a theory that maybe it was a Delphi city official or a next door neighbor to one of the girls. All that would be is another guess. Theories where the only real argument is that you cannot deny that it could be a possibility are not worth discussing because they lead no where. I guarantee you that if people send these type of theories to police they just delete them.

Here is some common sense. The family along with the property owner are people that are known to the police. Does anybody really think the police would not eliminate people closest to the girls and the crime scene first? The problem in this case is police not knowing who the bridge guy is.

My theory is that after over 3 1/2 years police are still searching for the person who murdered Abigail Williams and Liberty German on February 13, 2017.

I didn't mention property owners, family or drug dealers. My supposition was based on degenerates banding together. Within numbers perhaps some would feel more confident in raising the stakes from using and abusing women to killing them. Again all just in theory.

 

[Hansen]

We have to deliver the missing puzzle piece, I think.

Or, the missing piece is something very close to Delphi, same theories explored. I think this investigation needs a new set of eyes.

 

[somequestions]

I didn't mention property owners, family or drug dealers. My supposition was based on degenerates banding together. Within numbers perhaps some would feel more confident in raising the stakes from using and abusing women to killing them. Again all just in theory.

It is ok to have a theory. Anybody can have whatever theory they want to have. It could be a group of degenerates. Or it could be a group of Boy Scouts. Or a group of bikers. There just seems to be very little to support the theory. I suppose a killer or killers would feel more confident in a group. But Liberty German only took video of one man. As far as I have heard there is only one voice from the audio. And after 3 1/2 years police seem to be looking for one person.

I think a theory is best when you state a theory and make an argument. Then you state all the reasons why you believe that theory to be correct using what is known factually about the case. In college it was called "making an argument." People may not always agree with your argument, but a theory is always better when supported by evidence or opinionated expert research.

My theory at this point in the investigation is that it looks as if police are still looking for the murderer of Abigail Williams and Liberty German. That murderer may or may not be the person depicted in the 2nd sketch. This misidentification could be why the killer has eluded capture for so long. No matter what theory you may have I think police would agree with the following statement:

Until the case is solved, every theory or possibility is on the table.

 

[Dylansmom08]

Watching the video clip and listening to his voice he seems to have a distinctive voice. That coupled with his choice of words struck me as something that should stand out in someones memory if they ever had a chance to talk to this man in any length at all. The way he said, "guys...go down the hill" versus "girls..go down the hill" Probably means this is a word he uses a lot in normal everyday conversations sort of a go to word if you will. Everyone has a go to word or an oddity that they can't help but repeat in sentences it forms a pattern of speech for most everyone. I don't know if that will help to identify him but I figured it couldn't hurt to put it out there. Of course this all just my opinion.

 

[sunshineray]

It is ok to have a theory. Anybody can have whatever theory they want to have. It could be a group of degenerates. Or it could be a group of Boy Scouts. Or a group of bikers. There just seems to be very little to support the theory. I suppose a killer or killers would feel more confident in a group. But Liberty German only took video of one man. As far as I have heard there is only one voice from the audio. And after 3 1/2 years police seem to be looking for one person.

I think a theory is best when you state a theory and make an argument. Then you state all the reasons why you believe that theory to be correct using what is known factually about the case. In college it was called "making an argument." People may not always agree with your argument, but a theory is always better when supported by evidence or opinionated expert research.

My theory at this point in the investigation is that it looks as if police are still looking for the murderer of Abigail Williams and Liberty German. That murderer may or may not be the person depicted in the 2nd sketch. This misidentification could be why the killer has eluded capture for so long. No matter what theory you may have I think police would agree with the following statement:

Until the case is solved, every theory or possibility is on the table.

Yes of course theories can be a dime a dozen. LE has said numerous times that they have not ruled out that more than one person was involved. Now whether that actually means possibly more than one killer or just an accomplice after the fact in knowingly covering up for a killer, I don't know.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Yes of course theories can be a dime a dozen. LE has said numerous times that they have not ruled out that more than one person was involved. Now whether that actually means possibly more than one killer or just an accomplice after the fact in knowingly covering up for a killer, I don't know.

Based on the crime scene, I'm sure LE knows.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[somequestions]

Yes of course theories can be a dime a dozen. LE has said numerous times that they have not ruled out that more than one person was involved. Now whether that actually means possibly more than one killer or just an accomplice after the fact in knowingly covering up for a killer, I don't know.

I think it is how we interpret what LE says that is different. I think you are looking at it more literally like they actually could think there is a possibility of more than one killer.

In my opinion, I think they are simply remarking that they will never be able to conclude until the case is solved whether one or more people were involved. I do not think they actually believe there is more than one killer. They cannot come out and say one way or another because the case is not solved.

Here is another example. If you send a theory to LE, no matter what the theory, usually they will either thank you for the information or not reply at all. Does that mean they really care about your information? In my opinion, no, they are just being courteous most of the time. They get tips from people all over who have ideas or suggestions.

That is why looking back I am glad I sent my tip in 5 times over 3 years. Other than a generic response, I never heard anything. So basically, in my opinion, if LE does not think it is a truck driver who lives outside of Delphi, IN, they really are not interested. Maybe if a few years pass without finding the killer, then they might be open to that type of possibility. Or maybe they have already eliminated that as a possibility. Who knows. No one really knows how the investigation is being run.

I think, like the families, the only thing left to do is trust that they know what they are doing and that it will eventually lead to an arrest and conclusion of this case.

 

[somequestions]

In any case you have to be able to eliminate possibilities. This is why theories where the only real point is that it is a possibility are so weak. I agree with the FBI agent O'Connell on HLN that police are more comfortable with someone coming in with information. When police release information people send in tips based on the information released. Or else like she said, you will end up getting six hundred thousand tips that all have to be looked at.

I think police look at every tip, but I doubt they investigate every one to conclusion. This is probably why they want specific information in a tip because then they can actually investigate it quickly without it taking lots of time out of the investigation. Hopefully the day comes where LE gets the right information within the right tip, and they can solve this case.

 

[JnRyan]

In any case you have to be able to eliminate possibilities. This is why theories where the only real point is that it is a possibility are so weak. I agree with the FBI agent O'Connell on HLN that police are more comfortable with someone coming in with information. When police release information people send in tips based on the information released. Or else like she said, you will end up getting six hundred thousand tips that all have to be looked at.

I think police look at every tip, but I doubt they investigate every one to conclusion. This is probably why they want specific information in a tip because then they can actually investigate it quickly without it taking lots of time out of the investigation. Hopefully the day comes where LE gets the right information within the right tip, and they can solve this case.

I just read a news report on a case here in VA. The Heidi Childs/David Metzler murders from 2009. Last year at the 10 year mark, LE had a press conference and as a result starting receiving some tips. Yesterday, LE announced they received 50 tips in the months after that PC and they, Montgomery County Sheriff's, FBI and VA State Police, have been working on those tips all year and stated they've made significant progress. 50 tips. Not thousands or even hundreds. What did the investigators get in Abigail and Liberty's case in the first 2 months here. 15K to 17K in tips? Granted, they had between 100 and 200 personnel on that task force at that time with participation from over 20 agencies. When LE had the 'new direction' press conference last year they received 2,700 new tips.
Police Receive More Than 2,700 New Tips In Delphi Murders Of 2 Girls After Releasing New Suspect Sketch

2.7K in tips with a task force that is much smaller now. That, in addition to about 50K tips prior to that point. I don't care what database software package you are using that is a huge ask of LE to run down tips. Many times when investigators stall on a case they go back over what they have. Having that many tips with a smaller LE group now is a daunting task to go back to the beginning.

I've wondered for some time now if LE doesn't already have a tip on the suspect in those tips. If that does turn out to be the case, maybe, as you indicate, the problem is that there wasn't sufficient detail for LE to run it down.