Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #130

[Spartygirl]

A new path

Here Sister Kelsi says she saw a dark SUV that day.

Dark SUV with stickers

 

[Angels27]

I'd also add to the list of possible motives:
8. Protect criminal manufacture or distribution operation from discovery - drugs, sex, guns, etc.

(not saying I "prefer" that possibility for consideration... just cannot eliminate it.)

I also read some theory that some money hungry guys were trying to make RL’s land seem less valuable so they could buy it. Or even to frame him. Were bodies found on his actually property? So something very specific like this could be a motive too.

 

[Spartygirl]

A new path

Here Sister Kelsi says she saw a dark SUV that day.

Dark SUV with stickers
and IIRC, JH said they have the info on it.

 

[Angels27]

Dark SUV with stickers

Wow, dark SUV with “rear windshield COVERED in decals.” You’d think someone in that town would know that vehicle! Why didn’t cops mention that vehicle in any PCs??? If they had already figured out who it was Kelsi wouldn’t be regretting daily not studying the car more.

 

[Angels27]

Dark SUV with stickers
and IIRC, JH said they have the info on it.

oh so they already know whose vehicle it is? Have they ruled them out, do you know?

 

[Spartygirl]

Wow, dark SUV with “rear windshield COVERED in decals.” You’d think someone in that town would know that vehicle! Why didn’t cops mention that vehicle in any PCs??? If they had already figured out who it was Kelsi wouldn’t be regretting daily not studying the car more.

IIRC, they figured it out and has nothing to do with L & A
LE was more focused on the vehicle at the old CPS building.

 

[Yemelyan]

I think Abby and Libby were targeted.
No random killing as mentioned above with HD III
JMO

Not trying to be argumentative, just genuinely curious - for anyone who still thinks the killings were targeted and not random after reading TL's answer in the Carroll County Comet last week - how do you reconcile his answer to the question "were the murders planned?" He said "Not planned. Victims of circumstance or opportunity."

To me, that would seem to rule anything targeted out. But I'm wondering, if you still believe it after reading his answer, why? Is he lying? Are we not correctly interpreting what he's saying? How does a targeted scenario still fit into that?

 

[Spartygirl]

Not trying to be argumentative, just genuinely curious - for anyone who still thinks the killings were targeted and not random after reading TL's answer in the Carroll County Comet last week - how do you reconcile his answer to the question "were the murders planned?" He said "Not planned. Victims of circumstance or opportunity."

To me, that would seem to rule anything targeted out. But I'm wondering, if you still believe it after reading his answer, why? Is he lying? Are we not correctly interpreting what he's saying? How does a targeted scenario still fit into that?

Hi there @Yemelyan
I really have no concrete answer for you
just a feeling I have had since the beginning.
I realize we are all about facts here and what TL says is considered fact.
I also realize that LE can modify news accordingly.
Just my feeling since it happened and over the past 4 years, I have tried to look at different scenarios of it not being targeted but I still feel it is.
I have changed my POIs over the years but not this
I have no fact to base it on other than my 4 yrs of research and going to Delphi .. it is JMO is all.

 

[Yemelyan]

Hi there @Yemelyan
I really have no contrite answer for you
just a feeling I have had since the beginning.
I realize we are all about facts here and what TL says is considered fact.
I also realize that LE can modify news accordingly.
Just my feeling since it happened and over the past 4 years, I have tried to look at different scenarios of it not being targeted but I still feel it is.
I have no fact to base it on other than my 4 yrs of research and going to Delphi .. it is JMO is all.

Okay. Thanks for the friendly and honest answer. I'm just trying to understand how all perspectives still persist with the new facts as they come out.

 

[Spartygirl]

Okay. Thanks for the friendly and honest answer. I'm just trying to understand how all perspectives still persist with the new facts as they come out.

I know
My family says the same thing to me
Mom... if LE says it is this then why do you still think it is targeted?
Mom-- I watched the HLN and some things you had spot on but other things you are off... why do you think that ??
LOL-- believe me... I try to look at all perspectives and listen to LE and I am always respectful of others opinions but I also have gut reactions/feelings that I cannot ignore.
UGH--this case drive me crazy.
hoping for justice for Abby and Libby this year as I know we all are.

 

[steeltowngirl]

Not trying to be argumentative, just genuinely curious - for anyone who still thinks the killings were targeted and not random after reading TL's answer in the Carroll County Comet last week - how do you reconcile his answer to the question "were the murders planned?" He said "Not planned. Victims of circumstance or opportunity."

To me, that would seem to rule anything targeted out. But I'm wondering, if you still believe it after reading his answer, why? Is he lying? Are we not correctly interpreting what he's saying? How does a targeted scenario still fit into that?

I think of it this way. If a man kills another person in a fit of rage, it’s not planned in advance. But it IS targeted at the other person, because that’s the person they are angry with.

A person may have a circumstance happen that causes him to rage at a particular person, or be triggered to commit an act of violence. Maybe not even at any one person in particular, but anyone that fits the bill. Let’s say a man has just gone through a nasty breakup and he’s angry at women in general. An unhinged man might walk by ten other men, then see a young woman and she becomes his immediate target. He didn’t plan it (although legally it might be considered premeditation). But he had the circumstance to become violent, and the opportunity.

Just tossing some thoughts out there.

 

[Spartygirl]

I think of it this way. If a man kills another person in a fit of rage, it’s not planned in advance. But it IS targeted at the other person, because that’s the person they are angry with.

A person may have a circumstance happen that causes him to rage at a particular person, or be triggered to commit an act of violence. Maybe not even at any one person in particular, but anyone that fits the bill. Let’s say a man has just gone through a nasty breakup and he’s angry at women in general. An unhinged man might walk by ten other men, then see a young woman and she becomes his immediate target. He didn’t plan it (although legally it might be considered premeditation). But he had the circumstance to become violent, and the opportunity.

Just tossing some thoughts out there.

Thanks @steeltowngirl
Agree and just to add--- An unhinged man not only walks by ten other men, but several other young girls and still goes after Abby and Libby
I just cant get past that... that bothers me
He saw them, he bypassed other young people there that day and went after them.

 

[Yemelyan]

I wanted to bring some information here from the latest Carroll County Comet article (part 2 of the Q&A with Tobe Leazenby). This is not the full article. The full paywalled article can be found here: Sheriff Leazenby continues to answer double homicide questions | Carroll County Comet

The article was long and almost all questions were things that were previously answered or the information is available in other MSM sources or from the two approved podcasts about the case.

But, here are a few things I personally found interesting:

Question: What sorts of information do investigators continue to look at for this case? Answer: Several aspects specifically associated with February 13, 2017.

Question: Is familial linkage via DNA databases being used in this case? Answer: This is an evidentiary question and will not be answered.

Question: Do you know how the murderer was able to gain control of both girls at once? Answer: It is believed by manipulation and intimidation factors.

 

[minazoe]

Not trying to be argumentative, just genuinely curious - for anyone who still thinks the killings were targeted and not random after reading TL's answer in the Carroll County Comet last week - how do you reconcile his answer to the question "were the murders planned?" He said "Not planned. Victims of circumstance or opportunity."

To me, that would seem to rule anything targeted out. But I'm wondering, if you still believe it after reading his answer, why? Is he lying? Are we not correctly interpreting what he's saying? How does a targeted scenario still fit into that?

I think he might be lying. could be a lot of planning went into this crime...the killer will resent this. mOO

 

[Spartygirl]

I wanted to bring some information here from the latest Carroll County Comet article (part 2 of the Q&A with Tobe Leazenby). This is not the full article. The full paywalled article can be found here: Sheriff Leazenby continues to answer double homicide questions | Carroll County Comet

The article was long and almost all questions were things that were previously answered or the information is available in other MSM sources or from the two approved podcasts about the case.

But, here are a few things I personally found interesting:

Question: What sorts of information do investigators continue to look at for this case? Answer: Several aspects specifically associated with February 13, 2017.

Question: Is familial linkage via DNA databases being used in this case? Answer: This is an evidentiary question and will not be answered.

Question: Do you know how the murderer was able to gain control of both girls at once? Answer: It is believed by manipulation and intimidation factors.

I am surprised he answered that honestly.
I think we all have thought since the beginning that BG used authoritive manipulation and threats of intimidation on the girls.
Either by showing a gun (real or toy), a badge or spoke words of authority, that is how he controlled them "down the hill" and scared them. IMO

 

[Yemelyan]

I think of it this way. If a man kills another person in a fit of rage, it’s not planned in advance. But it IS targeted at the other person, because that’s the person they are angry with.

A person may have a circumstance happen that causes him to rage at a particular person, or be triggered to commit an act of violence. Maybe not even at any one person in particular, but anyone that fits the bill. Let’s say a man has just gone through a nasty breakup and he’s angry at women in general. An unhinged man might walk by ten other men, then see a young woman and she becomes his immediate target. He didn’t plan it (although legally it might be considered premeditation). But he had the circumstance to become violent, and the opportunity.

Just tossing some thoughts out there.

I'd agree that most crimes are "targeted" in the sense that, out of all the people who could have become victims, the offender chooses the ones which best fit either his fantasy of the crime, or are the best opportunity to achieve his goal. His goal might be, choosing the young woman instead of ten men (in your example), because he calculates that any of the ten men might hit back and overpower him so he chooses the "weakest" victim - though he could be wrong in his calculation.

However, my question was for the people who think the Delphi murders were a planned (not circumstantial), targeted (to only these particular victims, and decided in advance, not opportunistically) crime. In other words, people that hear the sheriff say they were victims of circumstance or opportunity and still reject that in favor of theories where they were lured there specifically by a person who targeted them and only them.

 

[Spartygirl]

I'd agree that most crimes are "targeted" in the sense that, out of all the people who could have become victims, the offender chooses the ones which best fit either his fantasy of the crime, or are the best opportunity to achieve his goal. His goal might be, choosing the young woman instead of ten men (in your example), because he calculates that any of the ten men might hit back and overpower him so he chooses the "weakest" victim - though he could be wrong.

However, my question was for the people who think the Delphi murders were a planned (not circumstantial), targeted (to only these particular victims, and decided in advance, not opportunistically) crime. In other words, people that hear the sheriff say they were victims of circumstance or opportunity and still reject that in favor of theories where they were lured there specifically by a person who targeted them and only them.

I understand what you are questioning.
I go back and forth with being lured by BG or knew/overheard the girls were going to be there in my theory of targeted.
I try to be open minded to the "they were victims of circumstance or Opportunity" but I still feel what I feel since the beginning. No matter what LE says as LE has not proven otherwise to me. Especially at the beginning
JMO

 

[mom2chloe]

Thanks. What’s the CS?

Crime scene!

 

[Angels27]

To the women in Delphi and surrounding towns: don’t be stupid, naive or vain and think your bf, husband, father, son, brother, cousin, or coworker is not capable of such horror, or that you “would know.” Anyone is capable of anything. BTK killer’s wife and kids “had no clue.” He seemed “normal.” Take a long, close look at who you live with and work with, even if you never have before. Put yourself in the shoes of Abby and Libby’s family. Imagine if that was your child and nobody helped. Hiding the devil is just as bad, or worse, and you too will burn in hell if you do nothing. LE will forgive “fear” for only so long, but forgiveness has a time limit. And once he is brought in and you are also implicated, you will serve serious time for not divulging what you knew when you knew it. Is your “fear” or comfort/livelihood more import than finding this demon who very well might kill again, if he hasn’t already? I will tell you, it is not. Don’t be so vain to think you would know, or that your comfort matters, because you would not and it does not.

 

[Boxer]

Actually, at the time this crime happened, February 2o17, trucks were not required to be tracked. A new regulation from the government was set to take effect in December 2017(later moved to April 2018) requiring that all trucking companies have trucks that are equipped with EDL's. Many smaller carriers did not use EDL's and it was going to put added cost into having the truck fitted with this new equipment. I do not know how the regulation progressed or how it is today. This is what I remember from back then.

I only know this because as this period was approaching truck drivers were getting angry over the new government regulation. Time matters in trucking and drivers do not like to wait, especially at places that keep them way over their appointment time for pickup or delivery. I asked why the drivers were angry because I always thought the drivers had to keep logs. The anger came from actually being tracked. I asked how it was done before EDL's with the paper logs. The response was, "We lie." Paper logs make it easy to lie about working and rest time.

According to drivers this is how they get around companies that keep them waiting for hours on end. Or else based on the driving and rest periods, drivers would have to be careful taking loads from companies that make them wait. The frustration was so bad that many long time drivers said they were thinking about leaving the industry because of these government regulations.

The point is drivers do get tracked by brokers and the companies they work for. But up until December 2017, it was not a requirement to be tracked.

Even semis carrying meat and livestock? MOO at least they had transponders to check into weigh stations.

In any case, yes, a driver may be involved.
But to just to add a source of itinerant men, a work program in Lafayette ran a free shuttle from Lafayette for potential workers to visit the Indiana Packers plant.
Drug program men, felons, homeless were being brought to IP/Delphi daily.