Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #130

[Angels27]

DC says the perp is a combination of the two pics. How is that possible? How could one person on the same day have seen a young guy with curly hair no hat and no goatee and the video shows a an old guy with a hat and a goatee?! If someone really did report seeing that young guy wouldn’t their testimony be called into question since he LOOKS NOTHING LIKE BG? How could you miss seeing a mustache and goatee? Did he grow one suddenly? Maybe it was from an eyewitness who saw him on a different day. That would make sense.

Also, I listened to the PC from 2017 last night for the first time and it sure sounds like they suspect more than one person. I think that PC tells us WAY more than later ones.

 

[Angels27]

I read last night that serial killers can go years, or even decades without killing and then strike again. 1. I really think they need to look at other cases in that and surrounding states very closely. 2. I hope the length of time that’s passed does not embolden this whack job.

I really have a feeling this was a fake cop power hungry, loser in real life, who at one time enjoyed SOME power over others and who is frustrated at his low education level and lack of power in real life, and overcompensated for it by exerting power on innocent young girls. Maybe he doesn’t act this way to those around him. Maybe it’s his “hidden” side.

 

[Ozoner]

I had such and odd , dark weird feeling about this case today. I was actually thinking about
Chase Merritt, and how he took the McStay Brother out to the house...how he did interviews and boo hoo'ed about losing his best friend...how he was so helpful with Joey's dad ...

you cannot underestimate what a psychopath is capable of.

mOO

True that!

 

[GreyGardens]

I read last night that serial killers can go years, or even decades without killing and then strike again. 1. I really think they need to look at other cases in that and surrounding states very closely. 2. I hope the length of time that’s passed does not embolden this whack job.

I really have a feeling this was a fake cop power hungry, loser in real life, who at one time enjoyed SOME power over others and who is frustrated at his low education level and lack of power in real life, and overcompensated for it by exerting power on innocent young girls. Maybe he doesn’t act this way to those around him. Maybe it’s his “hidden” side.

I'm sure they have, and do, look at cases both in surrounding states and across the country. They have investigators working on this case and only this case. Especially with the FBI being involved so early on and giving them extra resources, they surely have access to some of the best tech available. I looked up a demo of one of the computer programs that was mentioned in an article and it was impressive to say the least. It draws possible connections and patterns to other crimes across the country that might be overlooked by human eyes.

 

[bradfordsleuth]

I have a question about this bridge and the area. Like, @AwsiDooger, visited the place, with his family, walked around, saw the CS, saw everything, even how dark it was. Delphi became the place of crime tourism. Now, if someone disappeared exactly at the same place, all such tourists would be suspects, too.

But could it be so that there was some event at MHB, 15-20 years ago, that could be a good reason for someone to visit the place at that time? A very good reason, to visit and stay, maybe for a couple of days? I know only of archeological excavations, and of course, they attract people, too, but maybe, a museum opening, some festival related to first settlers, something else attracting a large group? Wabash canal anniversary, I don't know... Dephi has something, a theater, an opera house, maybe that?

Something where people would be expected to walk around, and buy, and see the environs? And it probably was not 20 years ago, it could be either something long enough, or occurring repeatedly for several years.

Quoted bbm
As a reminder....

Delphi has their annual 'Day after Christmas Walk' that has been going on for years.

There are dozens upon dozens of people that walk over to High Bridge every year at this event.

This article is from Dec 2007 but there are subequent articles that describe this annual event.

Hikers experience beauty of Delphi Historic Trail

"The trail follows a rail trail to old Camden Road and over to the Monon High Bridge, a decommissioned railroad bridge currently owned by CSX. The bridge, which is now just loosely fitted railroad ties, is the second-highest in Indiana at 63 feet high and is also 853 feet long.

Few had the courage to venture out onto the bridge, but those that did could gaze out into the valley at the swift-rushing Deer Creek below."

A person need only to attend this event one time to gain familiarity with the trail system and bridge area.

It could be very easy for a person to separate themselves from the group on this hike and check out the area, then rejoin again with nobody the wiser.

I wonder who was well known for being one of the brave ones to venture out on that bridge each time?

JMO

 

[Charlot123]

I'm sure they have, and do, look at cases both in surrounding states and across the country. They have investigators working on this case and only this case. Especially with the FBI being involved so early on and giving them extra resources, they surely have access to some of the best tech available. I looked up a demo of one of the computer programs that was mentioned in an article and it was impressive to say the least. It draws possible connections and patterns to other crimes across the country that might be overlooked by human eyes.

So...imagine it is someone who knows about this program. He was able to create the CS with patterns that would lead the LE far, far away, right?

Only that requires some time. According to my theory, the decision was made rapidly, but maybe I am wrong?

BG is a very, very good planner.

 

[Charlot123]

Quoted bbm
As a reminder....

Delphi has their annual 'Day after Christmas Walk' that has been going on for years.

There are dozens upon dozens of people that walk over to High Bridge every year at this event.

This article is from Dec 2007 but there are subequent articles that describe this annual event.

Hikers experience beauty of Delphi Historic Trail

"The trail follows a rail trail to old Camden Road and over to the Monon High Bridge, a decommissioned railroad bridge currently owned by CSX. The bridge, which is now just loosely fitted railroad ties, is the second-highest in Indiana at 63 feet high and is also 853 feet long.

Few had the courage to venture out onto the bridge, but those that did could gaze out into the valley at the swift-rushing Deer Creek below."

A person need only to attend this event one time to gain familiarity with the trail system and bridge area.

It could be very easy for a person to separate themselves from the group on this hike and check out the area, then rejoin again with nobody the wiser.

I wonder who was well known for being one of the brave ones to venture out on that bridge each time?

JMO

We have to ask the locals.

And also, discuss, if one time is enough. The person was really walking fast, as if it was something common for him. So maybe, several times, especially since human nature is such...he doesn’t stand out, and one time could have.

Both could be right, but maybe he visited several times? Kinda “the regular”.

Probably came with the family, or a dog, or friends. Nice guy. Friendly.

 

[Peppery]

Quoted bbm
As a reminder....

Delphi has their annual 'Day after Christmas Walk' that has been going on for years.

There are dozens upon dozens of people that walk over to High Bridge every year at this event.

This article is from Dec 2007 but there are subequent articles that describe this annual event.

Hikers experience beauty of Delphi Historic Trail

"The trail follows a rail trail to old Camden Road and over to the Monon High Bridge, a decommissioned railroad bridge currently owned by CSX. The bridge, which is now just loosely fitted railroad ties, is the second-highest in Indiana at 63 feet high and is also 853 feet long.

Few had the courage to venture out onto the bridge, but those that did could gaze out into the valley at the swift-rushing Deer Creek below."

A person need only to attend this event one time to gain familiarity with the trail system and bridge area.

It could be very easy for a person to separate themselves from the group on this hike and check out the area, then rejoin again with nobody the wiser.

I wonder who was well known for being one of the brave ones to venture out on that bridge each time?

JMO

I hate how there is so much conflicting info about the trails and bridge! This event implies that many people know about the existence and location of the bridge. It might even be a tradition amongst local families and a fun, unique experience to take out of town visitors. Kelsi has said high school kids go there to hang out, Libby and Kelsi had been there several times. There was a woman who was interviewed on HLN’s DTH special who said Delphi was becoming a travel destination and she regularly got requests for maps of the trails. Some estimates put approximately 50 people there the day of the murder and 300-500 searchers that night and the following day, maybe more.

Yet we repeatedly hear that the bridge is hidden, locals don’t even know where it is, very few people go there, it’s very secluded. We’re told BG must be local to have any knowledge of the bridge and how to get in and out of the area.

It just doesn’t add up to me. And I wonder why there two very different versions out there.

 

[Optics]

What does Libby’s grandfather mean when he tells reporter her “cell phone’s been pinging around town?” Why would her cell phone be “pinging around town?” Wouldn’t it just ping in the area of that trail?

And does it seem odd to locals that the girls weren’t found on Monday with 200-300 volunteer searchers? Were they located in such a remote area? Or maybe covered and disguised? Bodies were found 3/4 of a mile from the bridge. Wow, that is pretty far.

I think they were feeling in the initial times of the searches the girls were on on the side of all the trails because of private property where the girls were actually found. They were searching more toward the direction of town, including along the creek.

 

[minazoe]

another smart thing the killer did..he killed in a spot that was illogical in terms of somewhere the girls might go on their own,,, mOO

 

[Angels27]

In the case of Tampa serial killer Howell Donaldson III, 24: He was a young, good looking, polite, well-dressed, but quiet, recent college graduate who was a walk-on for his college basketball team in NY, but never played 1 game. When he graduated he worked at McDonalds. His victims were random, unrelated and unknown to him. 3 men, one woman. All shot while standing or walking alone on the street. Cops aren’t sure of his motive. Read the above. His motive’s right there.

He did not achieve what he set out to. Was disappointed with his life. No doubt struggling financially. F* the world mentality. But nobody is his orbit saw it, or even believed it once they knew.

He chose a neighbor he “didn’t have a link to,” but LE found one anyway on his cell phone. He had plans to leave the state before cops nabbed him.

I think BGs motive is similar. Angry at the world. Disappointed with his life. Seeking power thru killing innocent, unsuspecting people.

 

[Angels27]

If they knew who it was they would have mentioned his name in the recording.

Not necessarily, if one was catfished, which I think happened, the perp would have given a fake or no name. DC in first PC, 2017 said It’s “not likely” it was random and that’s the perp didn’t know they would be there that day, although it’s possible, he said, obviously catching himself. They gave away a LOT more than at future PCs. I was shocked when I watched that for the first time last night. And whenever any reporter would ask questions in that regard he would say, “we’d love to but we just can’t give away what we know.” Pretty certain they suspected at least 2 people straight away also. And that was right after these crimes happened. I think they know a LOT. My guess is they are trying to get ducks in a row before reeling him/them in.

 

[TheVisual]

We have to ask the locals.

And also, discuss, if one time is enough. The person was really walking fast, as if it was something common for him. So maybe, several times, especially since human nature is such...he doesn’t stand out, and one time could have.

Both could be right, but maybe he visited several times? Kinda “the regular”.

Probably came with the family, or a dog, or friends. Nice guy. Friendly.

Remember the video is only 1 to 2 seconds long. We have no idea how fast he was walking. Depends on which video you watch. May look like he is walking fast but I don't think so. JMO

 

[TheVisual]

I hate how there is so much conflicting info about the trails and bridge! This event implies that many people know about the existence and location of the bridge. It might even be a tradition amongst local families and a fun, unique experience to take out of town visitors. Kelsi has said high school kids go there to hang out, Libby and Kelsi had been there several times. There was a woman who was interviewed on HLN’s DTH special who said Delphi was becoming a travel destination and she regularly got requests for maps of the trails. Some estimates put approximately 50 people there the day of the murder and 300-500 searchers that night and the following day, maybe more.

Yet we repeatedly hear that the bridge is hidden, locals don’t even know where it is, very few people go there, it’s very secluded. We’re told BG must be local to have any knowledge of the bridge and how to get in and out of the area.

It just doesn’t add up to me. And I wonder why there two very different versions out there.

They go there to hang out not necessarily to cross the bridge. They can hang out on the trails and still go down to the water without crossing the bridge.

 

[Falling Down]

Why would he walk them 3/4 of a mile from bridge?

He didn't walk them 3/4 of a mile, that's a false distance blurb mentioned a lot since the murders.

He marched them roughly 500 feet to the CS.

From the NW end of the bridge to the CS is under 3/8 of a mile.

 

[Pyschsandi]

I don’t think it’s human nature to stay and help. I think most humans would run for their own life. At least then there might be a CHANCE u can save both of you. Imagine u are about to crash bc an oncoming truck is now in your lane to your left, you will naturally turn wheel to right to save your own life even if someone is walking with a baby stroller to your right, bc the baby stroller can’t kill u but the oncoming truck can. With only a second to make the decision u turn into the baby stroller. I think Abby was immobilized almost immediately and the killer went for Libby, or vice versa.

Since BG is most likely a psychopath (psychopaths are charming liars), he probably told the girls that if they went to another location with him, he would not hurt them. People often will do what the perpetrator asks of them to stay alive. This tactic will work in some cases and will fail in others. It all depends on the person they are dealing with. It saddens me to think about how these two beautiful girls that had such bright futures were taken by a man that only cared about his own selfish pleasures.

 

[Falling Down]

The fire chief said there were 300 people who checked in to search plus an unknown number of people who just showed up. They estimated 300-500 people searching. Remember some were searching in farm fields and further downstream, all 500 were not on RL's property.

Family have mentioned most of the gorge search was around the bridge and downstream of it. Other folks were searching in town, across the countryside, etc.

People make it sound like there were hundreds of people tromping around the bridge area, which doesn't appear to line up with reality.

JMO

 

[Ozoner]

. . . There was a woman who was interviewed on HLN’s DTH special who said Delphi was becoming a travel destination and she regularly got requests for maps of the trails. Some estimates put approximately 50 people there the day of the murder and 300-500 searchers that night and the following day, maybe more.

Yet we repeatedly hear that the bridge is hidden, locals don’t even know where it is, very few people go there, it’s very secluded. We’re told BG must be local to have any knowledge of the bridge and how to get in and out of the area.

It just doesn’t add up to me. And I wonder why there two very different versions out there.

Snipped.

The cops had myopia when it came to this issue. Maybe 30 years ago nobody but locals knew about the trail, but that was no longer the case in 2017.

This interview with Ives (which was posted in the last thread) makes it clear that there was no evidence pointing to a local other than the assumption that only a local would be familiar with the area around the Monon High Bridge.

I think we can safely throw out that assumption at this point. BG might be local, but he could easily be a traveling serial killer a la Israel Keyes.

I think they were feeling in the initial times of the searches the girls were on on the side of all the trails because of private property where the girls were actually found. They were searching more toward the direction of town, including along the creek.

Yes, they were thinking "accident along an expected route", not "abduction and murder."

 

[somequestions]

MOO The trucks are tracked. Drivers known. The sheriff has said if they find the psrson they have the evidence. Maybe an untracked passenger riding along in one of the IP trucks.

Actually, at the time this crime happened, February 2o17, trucks were not required to be tracked. A new regulation from the government was set to take effect in December 2017(later moved to April 2018) requiring that all trucking companies have trucks that are equipped with EDL's. Many smaller carriers did not use EDL's and it was going to put added cost into having the truck fitted with this new equipment. I do not know how the regulation progressed or how it is today. This is what I remember from back then.

I only know this because as this period was approaching truck drivers were getting angry over the new government regulation. Time matters in trucking and drivers do not like to wait, especially at places that keep them way over their appointment time for pickup or delivery. I asked why the drivers were angry because I always thought the drivers had to keep logs. The anger came from actually being tracked. I asked how it was done before EDL's with the paper logs. The response was, "We lie." Paper logs make it easy to lie about working and rest time.

According to drivers this is how they get around companies that keep them waiting for hours on end. Or else based on the driving and rest periods, drivers would have to be careful taking loads from companies that make them wait. The frustration was so bad that many long time drivers said they were thinking about leaving the industry because of these government regulations.

The point is drivers do get tracked by brokers and the companies they work for. But up until December 2017, it was not a requirement to be tracked.

 

[Satchie]

DC says the perp is a combination of the two pics. How is that possible? How could one person on the same day have seen a young guy with curly hair no hat and no goatee and the video shows a an old guy with a hat and a goatee?! If someone really did report seeing that young guy wouldn’t their testimony be called into question since he LOOKS NOTHING LIKE BG? How could you miss seeing a mustache and goatee? Did he grow one suddenly? Maybe it was from an eyewitness who saw him on a different day. That would make sense.

Also, I listened to the PC from 2017 last night for the first time and it sure sounds like they suspect more than one person. I think that PC tells us WAY more than later ones.

You're right, it is the 'clean-shaven/clean cut young looking guy' vs the 'unshaven, messy older looking guy'.

IMO, what that might mean is that clean cut guy may have disguised himself as a messy, bearded guy to commit the murders. I'm assuming clean cut guy was seen before the murders, and he would have cleaned up after he got away.

IMO, the disguise may have involved mussing up his hair so it sticks out, putting on a cap, and rubbing dirt or dark makeup along his nose and into some light stubble he'd grown. Possibly keeping his head down to avoid being examined too closely.

The sketch of messy guy was likely drawn for people who may have seen him in the park that day to come forward. So it shows him wearing a hoodie, which of course, he wouldn't always be wearing. I think the witness may have struggled to recreate the chin, maybe he didn't see him with his head up, so the squared, creased jaw is more like someones chin when it is kept down and hidden in clothing. The creased jaw makes him look older.

IMO, the sketch of clean cut guy, is deliberately drawn to try to represent what he may look like now, the assumption being, he's going to try to look as little as possible as messy guy. He may have dyed his hair, so the color is uncertain. He's probably clean shaven, and keeps his hair very neat. He might wear any kind of clothing, so it's not shown. The eyes, eyebrows, nose and lips, are the same. Presumably, his hairline is one of the things the hat was hiding. The chin is the major difference in their features, that's why I suggest messy guy may have kept his head down to hide it and the fake stubble.

ETA: This is only speculation, my purpose is mostly to show how the police can be perfectly reasonable and logical in their methods.