2010.11.03 Third party involved?

[NcMomma]

respectfully

I know I still would be calm simply for the fact I would think there would be a rational explanation.

If I had seen an individual take her then I know I would not be calm

You'd be calm even given the fact that there had been a fire on your property the night before and a ransom note found on your vehicle stating that they had taken a girl? To me, that would negate the possibility of a rational explanation. JMO

 

[Allusonz]

You'd be calm even given the fact that there had been a fire on your property the night before and a ransom note found on your vehicle stating that they had taken a girl? To me, that would negate the possibility of a rational explanation. JMO

Actually yes I would. In fact I know in past situations I was. If you had of asked me prior to these situations how I would of acted I would of thought I would of acted differently but I did not.

That is how I know I would remain calm. Guess that is just who I am...

During these times it was like I felt I needed to get as much information as I could so that appropriate action could be taken. Again just the type of person I am

 

[angelswatchoverthem]

The part of Zahra staying in her room most of the time could have been necissitated due to the fact that Child Protection Services were onto them, and it was decided between EB & AB that they better keep Zahra out of sight of anyone in case these people came looking for Zahra, and that also being the reason they moved. Also the story as to homeschooling Zahra. With EB explaining the bruising etc. away to AB as her falling because of her leg, after threatening Zahra with not telling her dad what was really happening. If EB realised that the authorities were brought in as to allegations of abuse, and anything from the school that Zahra attended previously, that may have been reported also, EB knew they were onto her. I did read somewhere about EB hurting her hand after hitting Zahra, because her hand connected with Zahra's prosthetic leg? She also didn't want Adam to find out about that, because in her words, "he would of got mad"! I will look for this & post it when i find it. She could of told AB that we better keep her out of sight because of the bruises they think i am hurting her, and AB might have believed that manipulator, thinking he would be in trouble with the authorities as well, and the other charges too with the bad checks etc. I think this is why he said what he did about Zahra "brooding" on that 911 call, and that was the deception, because he knew it was because they were hiding Zahra, and not because she was brooding. I really don't know about AB's involvement in any of it, but my hunch is that EB found out Zahra had found her bio mum, and that is the reason she died, because with that it would have panicked EB even more that her abusiveness toward Zahra would be found out. I don't think EB wanted Zahra alone with anybody else because of the risk that might pose for EB, in having child abuse charges brought against her.
I don't think it impossible that AB didn't know what was going on right under his nose, so to speak. It has happened in other cases. But the only reason i can see if Zahra was murdered and dismembered in that house, and her father had no idea of it would be if he wasn't there at the time? We still need to find out his timeline that week. If he was away overnight then i believe EB and accomplice could very well have done this terrible crime, and cleaned up before AB got home. With all the blood, tissue evidence that i have read about LE finding in that house, AB would have had to have been in a coma to not have known what happened.

 

[nort]

Interesting show last night (deadly women) where a woman shot her husband and after 14 days took him in the backyard and chopped him up with an axe. Did not take a mans help and she actually cut his arms and legs off and his hands and then chopped his head off. All in one evening in her backyard. They found him scattered. A fire in the back yard might have been just what the doctor ordered to hide such a crime. I dont believe a man or any accomplice was necessary to manage what happened to Zahra.

 

[angelswatchoverthem]

Interesting show last night (deadly women) where a woman shot her husband and after 14 days took him in the backyard and chopped him up with an axe. Did not take a mans help and she actually cut his arms and legs off and his hands and then chopped his head off. All in one evening in her backyard. They found him scattered. A fire in the back yard might have been just what the doctor ordered to hide such a crime. I dont believe a man or any accomplice was necessary to manage what happened to Zahra.

OMG!:sick:

 

[nort]

OMG!:sick:

I know its sickening and this is certainly no excuse but he had been beating her for years and she just lost it one night. He brought out the shot gun they wrestled with it and she got it. She slept with his body next to her bed on the floor for 14 days before dismembering. Just a horrible story...

 

[angelswatchoverthem]

I know its sickening and this is certainly no excuse but he had been beating her for years and she just lost it one night. He brought out the shot gun they wrestled with it and she got it. She slept with his body next to her bed on the floor for 14 days before dismembering. Just a horrible story...

I guess that's what happens if people are physically abused for a long time, they snap, and guess in a way i don't blame some of these women that have been going thru their own hell, and sometimes their children get abused also, and they all live in constant fear. I remember reading of a case where once the children got older, a son killed his father with a gun, after many years of abuse. He just couldn't take any more. A very horrible situation for some people for sure. Domestic violence is definitely not to be tolerated, nor is there ever an excuse for it.

 

[Carolina Girl]

I personally know a woman that killed her husband. I did not blame her, and no one else did either. She was found Not guilty. Years of abuse.

 

[Jolynna]

Interesting show last night (deadly women) where a woman shot her husband and after 14 days took him in the backyard and chopped him up with an axe. Did not take a mans help and she actually cut his arms and legs off and his hands and then chopped his head off. All in one evening in her backyard. They found him scattered. A fire in the back yard might have been just what the doctor ordered to hide such a crime. I dont believe a man or any accomplice was necessary to manage what happened to Zahra.

But that woman used an ax and did it in the backyard. She didn't dismember in the same bathtub her victim's parent would use.

That woman didn't have to commit the murder, get rid of the mattress and box springs, clean up around where the bed and box springs were, go out and buy a new mattress and box springs, bring the mattress and box springs home, set up the new mattress and box springs, buy paint (6 paint cans found in the house), paint, drag the body into the bathroom and tub, clean up the floor between Zahra's bed and the bathroom, gather necessary saw/knife/whatever, dismember, find the mattress cover & car cover and put body parts into both, dispose of said body parts in different places, go to the dumpster to get rid of the mattress cover and car cover, clean up the bathtub, clean bathroom walls, clean bathroom floor and bathroom ceiling, put back the tools used to dismember and clean the tools...do ALL of the above within the same 900 square feet as where the victim's parent also lived.

 

[Jolynna]

You'd be calm even given the fact that there had been a fire on your property the night before and a ransom note found on your vehicle stating that they had taken a girl? To me, that would negate the possibility of a rational explanation. JMO

He also hadn't SEEN Zahra for days.

The Baker's had had to get rid of Zahra's mattress and box springs because they were bloody. Zahra wasn't anywhere around during the mattress and box spring disposal. Or when the new box springs and mattress arrived.

That VERY morning somebody had set a car on fire, left a ransom note talking about kidnapping 2 OTHER kids and set the yard on fire. Who here would be o.k. with their 10-year-old daughter out with a fire-setting, ransom-note-writing nut that had threatened 2 other kids?

 

[krimekat]

I am still a believer that AB had no idea . . . EB is true evil

 

[drivinmebonkers]

I do believe AB is responsible, but I entertain the possibility of Another female accomp. besides Elisa. One we would never suspect!

 

[TorisMom003]

I personally believe that Zahra was dead for alot longer than EB and/or AB would have everyone believe. No one other than (supposedly) EB and AB saw Zahra after September 25. EB and Zahra were seen at the furniture store that day and I'm not even positive that I believe that sighting. Once they moved to the Hickory home things changed drastically for Zahra. Zahra was no longer allowed to go to school, play with neighborhood kids, stay over at friends/family homes for the weekends, not allowed to be seen by anyone outside of EB and AB. I do not believe that the change was due to DSS becoming involved, I believe it was because she was no longer alive to do those things.

If Zahra died shortly after September 25, or maybe even before then, then surely AB had to have known. It would be very difficult for any parent (and I use that term loosely with this man) to claim ignorant as to what had happened to a child that had not been seen in at least a month but failed to report it. I do think that there may have been more help, other people that may have known what had happened to Zahra but that does not explain away AB either.

I only hope that sometime very soon LE either figures out what truly happened to Zahra and arrests all involved or if they already know what truly happened they follow through with the arrests of all involved.

 

[WhyaDuck?]

Please note: this thread is not meant for discussing whether or not AB knew Zahra was being abused on an ongoing basis. Please stick to the topic of whether the homicide/coverup could be "accomplished" without his knowledge? (I use the term accomplished loosely, because I believe that - in the end - those involved will not get away with it.)

I respectfully request that we DON'T get carried away with the title of this thread and run afoul of WS TOS. Please DO NOT ATTEMPT TO NAME any potential accomplices! Thank you!


Bringing over my post from the AB Involvement poll/thread #2 - and a couple of others for context.

Bumping the OP.

Please stay on topic for this thread, and no accusations against anyone not significantly named as suspects by LE or in MSM.

ETA: FYI, I didn't remove any posts, but I am seeing some topic drift, and some posts that speak to other threads more than this one.

 

[tlcya]

Maybe this is just my experience, but in the niehgborhood I occupy, there are some seriously hardened women. While it is hard for most folks to swallow the possibility that EB could have acted alone, I have no trouble with it. I see women weekly in the grocery store who would just as soon knife you as look at you.

Women are just as capable as men at being stone cold, remorseless and efficient killers. Especially with the added knowledge that, if caught, they can claim to be the shrinking violet, abused, sad, confused, snapped and whatever BS they can come up with.

Do not misunderstand. I am not discounting that sometimes, after years of battery and emotional abuse, women can snap on their abusers. But those things have nothing to do with Zahra's tragic end.

Do I think she could have done it? Absolutely. Do I think AB should have known if he didn't? Yep. Do I think it equally possible AG was aware of involved somehow in cleanup and disposal? Yep. Waiting for some sort of charges somewhere to give me a clue what LE has so I can finally decide what to think on this issue.

 

[mssheila]

There seems to be a perception that people should act/respond in certain ways. This has been proven to not always be the case, and I personally don't believe that there is a template for "how you are suppose to act" as per a 911 call or in any situation.

I know I would probably be calm simply for the reason I would be in denial, thinking that my child was probably at a friend's house, went to the park, to the store before I would believe that a child of mine had been abducted/murdered. Yes I do know that this happens, but I know I would hold on to the belief that there is a rational explanation thus I don't see myself in panic mode or even thinking I would be accused down the road for her murder. Never would I then dream that there would be hundreds, thousands, millions dissecting each and every word I had spoke.

I know in a life and death situation how extremely calm I was and this included the 911 call. It was not till after the shock wore off that I even allowed myself or should I say gave myself permission to react.

I have heard guilty individuals make frantic calls and give the performance of their life. Conversely, I have heard innocent ones act very calm.

I was a 911 operator, and I can tell you with 100% certainty that this call is NOT an appropriate- or normal- or natural reaction to not knowing where your child is. That is speaking from experience in handling missing child calls.... when a parent simply hasnt seen them for 10 MINUTES. Let alone 8 HOURS!

Now, as a parent, I have lost my child temporarily in a store. Have you? I know the panic that rises up inside you when you realilze that your child could be ANYWHERE, or with ANYONE. Have you ever been unable to find your child for 10 min, 20 min? 30? It's utterly terrifying. Paralyzing fear. There is no fear like that. As evidenced by my own experience with my child, and as evidenced by speaking with numerous other parents in that exact same position, I can truly tell you that AB's 911 call is an abberation of normal.

 

[angelswatchoverthem]

I think AB's 911 call is pretty "off" as far as that goes, but i wonder what EB had told him prior to that call? But even so, he should have been more worried about where his daughter was, especially under the circumstances, and that she was a child with special needs.
I guess no one wants to think a parent could be involved in something so terrible, but i guess it happens. I wonder if he was at all abusive to Zahra in her life in Australia, and if not, what changed within such a short time here in the U.S.?

 

[Mrs G Norris]

I tend to think it's highly likely that KB took on most (or all) of the upbringing of Zahra, in fact I think that AB was so useless, that KB was still acting as mummy for his needs too...I bet KB did ALL the housework, cooked ALL the meals, paid the bills, did the laundry etc, she probably put his clothes out for him every night before bedtime FFS he likely paid board, but that is about it.

So when he hooked up with EB she stepped into KB's role, especially once they moved to the states, and he sat back uselessly while she treated Zahra with her own special style of mothering.

This is absolutely NO EXCUSE for AB. If he sat back and allowed EB to abuse Zahra, which is quite clear, then he is just as guilty as she is. In fact he is worse, because he should have had more love in his heart for the little girl who he had been with since birth, who he had seen suffer all her life through various illnesses and the losing of her leg which must have been heartbreaking.

But sadly it seems he did not, or is such a pathetic specimen of a man that he didn't have the cahones to do anything!

 

[dar107]

I tend to think it's highly likely that KB took on most (or all) of the upbringing of Zahra, in fact I think that AB was so useless, that KB was still acting as mummy for his needs too...I bet KB did ALL the housework, cooked ALL the meals, paid the bills, did the laundry etc, she probably put his clothes out for him every night before bedtime FFS he likely paid board, but that is about it.

So when he hooked up with EB she stepped into KB's role, especially once they moved to the states, and he sat back uselessly while she treated Zahra with her own special style of mothering.

This is absolutely NO EXCUSE for AB. If he sat back and allowed EB to abuse Zahra, which is quite clear, then he is just as guilty as she is. In fact he is worse, because he should have had more love in his heart for the little girl who he had been with since birth, who he had seen suffer all her life through various illnesses and the losing of her leg which must have been heartbreaking.

But sadly it seems he did not, or is such a pathetic specimen of a man that he didn't have the cahones to do anything!

Thanks is not enough. He should have turned into a roaring crazed bear at the first sign his daughter was being abused. And if he was afraid of EB, he should have been more afraid for his child then himself.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

^^ I know I really find it hard to contain my anger in regards to AB.