4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, 2022 #77

[Sundog]

Thank you.

At this point we don't even know how accurate the quoted students are. A very small number of them were quoted. Possibly being an unpopular TA does not a murderer make. If he was in fact fired, it was long after the murders were committed. The reported letter of termination was dated weeks after the murders and several days after BK arrived back home. Granted, there is nothing logical about murdering complete (or near complete) strangers, but I find it a stretch to believe that he murdered four people in another town because he suspected he may lose his position in six weeks.

I also find it odd that the university would wait until the semester was over to send official notification. Unless they sent the letter via certified mail/requested a signature upon receipt they wouldn't know he received the letter. He could easily show up in January ready to work.

Most everything is done by email these days, students are advised that they are responsible to keep up with reading emails from the administration (including registrar, Graduate School/division, department, etc.). And they would follow it up with a certified letter requiring signature.

If he showed up in January and paid his tuition on his own, they would have to have another reason to expel him, losing his teaching assistantship is all we know so far, not that he was expelled at that time.

 

[Twistinginthewind]

Regarding BK's "youth" and potential influences on him in the environment that he grew up in, it's of course speculative and IMHOO, but for what it's worth (FWIW):

There were at least 2 "high profile" murders with several similarities to the murders of Kaylee, Maddie, Xana, and Ethan ("Moscow murders") which occurred in PA when BK was very young (around 4 years old).

Acknowledging he was very young at the time, and he himself may not be able to or be paying attention to crimes in his family's community, the attendant news about it would be ongoing for years.

Even if BK only had glancing knowledge of one of the two “quadruple stabbing murders in the home” that occurred in PA when he was a child, he could have come to learn about or even research the details when he was older.

Again, all speculation and MOO, but honestly, I see a common thread here (BBM):

There were 2 separate quadruple stabbing murders of people inside their home when BK was a child in PA, that could either have been in his neighborhood, community or region he grew up in, and he could have been aware of.

What else these murders share in common with the Moscow murders is that the victims were mostly female -- 3 females and 1 male in the 1st case (the male having arrived at the scene to assist when he heard screams) and all (4) females in the 2nd case) (BBM):

Northampton homicides worst mass murder in county's recent history.
"Northampton homicides worst mass murder in county's recent history
The man accused of killing four people inside a Northampton home Saturday is the worst instance of mass murder in the county's recent history.
Michael E. Ballard, 36, was charged today with four counts of criminal homicide. …
Ballard is accused of stabbing four people to death Saturday at the home. The bloody scene of the crime was described by the Northampton County district attorney as unlike anything he had seen before."

Convicted Pa. killer Michael Eric Ballard admits he murdered four more people after release from prison
“Ballard, who was scheduled to go on trial next month, admitted he fatally stabbed his former girlfriend, her father, her 87-year-old grandfather and a neighbor on June 26 of last year during a grisly rampage in Northampton, a small town about 70 miles north of Philadelphia.”

In this case, Ballard had been convicted of murder before and served time with "early release" from prison after which he committed this quadruple murder, so it could have been controversial and the "churn" could have been in the news for years:
Man Who Stabbed 4 People Should Have Been in Prison: DA
"Man Who Stabbed 4 People Should Have Been in Prison: DA
DA says four people would still be alive if suspect served a full sentence
The quadruple murder brings up questions about why people who are convicted of murder are allowed to get out on parole. Ballard served only 15 years of a 15 to 30-year sentence, in which he pleaded guilty to stabbing an Allentown man to death in 1991.
"There is absolutely no reason why we ought to have people who've been convicted of murder out on parole at all," Morganelli told NBC Philadelphia. "They ought to be serving their entire sentence incarcerated.""

Another case in PA when BK was a child, when 4 people (all female) were stabbed to death inside their home:

Thomas Kimbell - National Registry of Exonerations
On June 15, 1994, Bonnie Dryfuse, her two daughters (ages 7 and 4), and her niece (age 5) were brutally murdered at their mobile home in Pulaski Township, Pennsylvania. At 3:00 p.m. that day, police received a call from Bonnie Dryfuse’s husband, Tom “Jake” Dryfuse, reporting that he’d just arrived at home and found the [four] bodies. Each had been stabbed numerous times, and their throats had been slashed.

 

[Sundog]

Baded on his consistent antisocial aggressive behaviors, student complaints and having altercations with his academic supervisor.

Students have grievance procedures and appeal rights, there is a process. I doubt that WSU went through a process like this to expel him from the university. Losing his TAship, of course, we know happened, but expelling him from the university would have taken longer.

Given that he lost his tuition, he would have had to come up with the money to pay his own tuition by January 9, 2023. And if WSU also paid for his graduate student housing on campus, based on his TAship, then he would have lost his housing stipend also. Whatever the WSU vacate date was for students graduating and/or leaving housing, that would have been the end of his housing through WSU.

 

[maconrich]

The INSIDE EDITION article claims to have obtained a copy of BK's termination letter, and upwards of 85% of the article consists of direct quotes from that letter. It would be VERY easy for other media outlets to prove INSIDE EDITION is lying, if it were.

That WSU refused to comment makes sense (personnel rules), but it doesn't mean the direct quotes from the termination letter are false.

Not every media outlet is Fox News. Most journalists are professionals who want to do their jobs well, though I agree that market pressures make it difficult at times.

I did a duck duck go search using "bryan kohberger termination letter" - I'd think google would pull up the same results. Note the common source named is Banfield and / or NewsNation - even in the Inside Edition story. Perhaps the exclusive termination letter is legit; perhaps someone did violate WCU's "privacy laws that prohibit them from speaking publicly about students and alumni." At some point I guess we'll find out. I'm willing to believe it might be true, but I wouldn't put money down on it. I also agree that every media outlet isn't Fox News, but some "media sources" still have the story that Kohberger exposed himself and taunted a female prisoner in PA (which was debunked). With this case, media and about everyone else, is throwing out bits of information without confirming sources or debunking things that aren't true. All IMHO.

(found doing a search)

Updated: Feb 11, 2023 / 07:49 AM CST
"NewsNation’s “Banfield” exclusively obtained the WSU termination letter sent to Kohberger"

Bryan Kohberger’s termination letter from WSU

NewsNation’s “Banfield” exclusively obtained the WSU termination letter sent to Kohberger.

www.newsnationnow.com

First Published: 10:29 AM PST, February 14, 2023
"allegedly got into a verbal altercation with a professor he worked for in the school’s criminology program, NewsNation and The New York Times reported."
"But following that counseling, Kohberger allegedly had a second incident with the same professor in early December and he lost his job as a teaching assistant."

WSU Investigated Bryan Kohberger's Behavior While He Was a TA: Report

Faculty members were counseling Bryan Kohberger after a verbal altercation between the teacher’s assistant and the professor he worked for in the school’s criminology program while also probing his conduct with female students.

www.insideedition.com

Story by Liz Jassin • Feb 11
"The termination letter, obtained exclusively by NewsNation’s “Banfield,” was dated Dec. 19"

MSN

 

[Sundog]

HR would wait for a time until the possibilty confrontation over the termination was minimized by distance or time. MOO they were worried about workplace violence.

Most universities handle grad students through the Graduate School or through Academic Personnel, not through HR. HR handles things like benefits for grad students and faculty, but Academic Personnel offices in the Provost''s Office and Dean's Office of the College or School usually handle personnel matters. The Dean of the Graduate College, for example, would work with the dean of the college and department chair to make the decision on renewing or not a TA-ship and they would communicate that to the student. HR would normally not be involved in that.


Edited to add - The University's General Counsel would also be involved in a case like this where a student was being expelled from the University, to make sure everything was done legally and according to institutional policy, state laws, etc.

It is possible that BK was expelled for some reason by WSU, and that he never responded to a notice of appeal, grievance process, etc. or he waived his rights to appeal, but I doubt the latter. He may have just ignored any correspondence about the matter, if it did happen.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Baded on his consistent antisocial aggressive behaviors, student complaints and having altercations with his academic supervisor.

What antisocial aggressive behaviors toward his class? Student complaints and altercations with his boss do not mean he was bullying his students.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I did a duck duck go search using "bryan kohberger termination letter" - I'd think google would pull up the same results. Note the common source named is Banfield and / or NewsNation - even in the Inside Edition story. Perhaps the exclusive termination letter is legit; perhaps someone did violate WCU's "privacy laws that prohibit them from speaking publicly about students and alumni." At some point I guess we'll find out. I'm willing to believe it might be true, but I wouldn't put money down on it. I also agree that every media outlet isn't Fox News, but some "media sources" still have the story that Kohberger exposed himself and taunted a female prisoner in PA (which was debunked). With this case, media and about everyone else, is throwing out bits of information without confirming sources or debunking things that aren't true. All IMHO.

(found doing a search)

Updated: Feb 11, 2023 / 07:49 AM CST
"NewsNation’s “Banfield” exclusively obtained the WSU termination letter sent to Kohberger"

Bryan Kohberger’s termination letter from WSU

NewsNation’s “Banfield” exclusively obtained the WSU termination letter sent to Kohberger.

www.newsnationnow.com

First Published: 10:29 AM PST, February 14, 2023
"allegedly got into a verbal altercation with a professor he worked for in the school’s criminology program, NewsNation and The New York Times reported."
"But following that counseling, Kohberger allegedly had a second incident with the same professor in early December and he lost his job as a teaching assistant."

WSU Investigated Bryan Kohberger's Behavior While He Was a TA: Report

Faculty members were counseling Bryan Kohberger after a verbal altercation between the teacher’s assistant and the professor he worked for in the school’s criminology program while also probing his conduct with female students.

www.insideedition.com

Story by Liz Jassin • Feb 11
"The termination letter, obtained exclusively by NewsNation’s “Banfield,” was dated Dec. 19"

MSN

What I remember coming from WSU was strictly worded to the effect of Brian Kohberger is no longer associated with WSU at this time (early January IIRC). It was short and I also tried to find it again and couldn't. Maybe they removed it for legal reasons.

MOO

 

[maconrich]

What I remember coming from WSU was strictly worded to the effect of Brian Kohberger is no longer associated with WSU at this time (early January IIRC). It was short and I also tried to find it again and couldn't. Maybe they removed it for legal reasons.

MOO

I remember that too. I'd guess either removed or buried due to all the other articles?

Edited to add:
Here's one with the quote:
"Mr. Kohberger does not currently have a teaching assistantship, and he is not currently enrolled at WSU," said Phil Weiler, the school's vice president of marketing and communications."

Idaho murders: WSU responds to report Bryan Kohberger was fired

Idaho student murders suspect Bryan Kohberger is no longer enrolled at or employed by the Washington State University, where he was studying for a Ph.D.

www.foxnews.com

 

[girlhasnoname]

I remember that too. I'd guess either removed or buried due to all the other articles?

Edited to add:
Here's one with the quote:
"Mr. Kohberger does not currently have a teaching assistantship, and he is not currently enrolled at WSU," said Phil Weiler, the school's vice president of marketing and communications."

Idaho murders: WSU responds to report Bryan Kohberger was fired

Idaho student murders suspect Bryan Kohberger is no longer enrolled at or employed by the Washington State University, where he was studying for a Ph.D.

www.foxnews.com

Thanks, I knew I wasn't completely imagining that. Hah

 

[Boxer]

Possibly, but IMO that does not fit the situation. They had no reason (that's been reported or makes sense) to suspect violence from him. They would have or at least could have known that he had a residence nearby and was registered for the second semester. All indications were that he would return, so delaying over the possibility of workplace violence isn't a viable reason for a delay.

MOO an altercation with his supervisor is an indication.

 

[10ofRods]

The movie could have sparked a twisted fantasy, I'm not saying that was the sole reason for his murderous spree. My point was we don't know if he had signs of antisocial behavior in his younger years, that has not been disclosed.

MOO

This is exactly the kind of thing that gets listed as a "sociocultural" element in the psychiatric literature. People's fantasies come from somewhere.

IMO.

 

[10ofRods]

I agree, but I think it's against TOS rules here on WS.

It's not against TOS, per se, as I understand it. But it has to be an issue brought up in legal documents or MSM. That's how I understand it anyway. We are asked to limit our discussion to VSS on this case, I believe. And everyone must mark their posts as opinion. VSS should give us enough to discuss, as it has very interesting neuropsychiatric elements to it (that overlap with some fairly serious psych Dx). This comes from the TapATalk messages written by BK and approved for us to discuss here, a few threads back. I don't think that's changed.

IMO.

 

[Boxer]

One huge example of his students being bullied? I don't believe that.



Right, but then we shouldn't assume that he was bullying his class, which is what I was commenting on. There is nothing to base that on thus far.

MOO.

Not sure bullying is correct word.

If a resident had altercations with the attending physician and interns were already complaining about that residents behavior what would that be called?

 

[10ofRods]

I agree narc injury doesn't cause psychosis but narc collapse can do. That is when the entire structure one has built one's self self esteem and identity around and whole belief system about how things work suddenly falls away.

I am unfortunately very well aware of what psychosis and schizophrenia are, not through my own first hand experience but that of someone very close to me, slowly creeping into mania and florid psychosis many many times.

I guess we'd need to know a whole lot more about what he was thinking and feeling. Will BK be subject to a mandatory psychiatric evaluation and report for the court?

The first to mention that kind of "collapse" from Narcissism to...some kind of psychosis was Freud. His own mentor was Dr. Bleuler (who is really the founder of psychiatry, IMO). Dr B had never really seen many psychotic patients (many reasons) but Freud did and later in his career noted a state that he called "borderline psychosis" (which has evolved into the now-used term Borderline Personality Disorder).

When I was doing courses in psychiatry, Narcissism was thought by some researchers (in academically published articles) to be on a continuum with borderline psychosis. Now, though, I'm seeing way more doubt about terminology. Originally, personality disorders were thought to be more or less learned or acquired through sociocultural circumstances.

Now, though, we know that there might be genes involved (Antisocial PD in particular). And we know that Antisocial PD sufferers can have psychotic breaks as well. Some of them are dual diagnosis, of course, so it's complicated.

I too lived with a person who had to be hospitalized for psychosis several times. Person was initialized diagnosed (wrongly) with schizophrenia. At any rate, Freud thought there was a relationship between what he called Secondary Narcissism and Borderline psychotic states. The names of things change within the medical community, but people's biology and experience don't change as quickly as the terms do.

The symptoms of VSS are enough for me to reference in regards to Bryan Kohberger. For now.

IMO.

 

[10ofRods]

Friends from childhood have talked about him being obese as a teen, him being a victim of bullying, then becoming the bully, his family members mentioned him wanting them to change their pots and pans for him because of his vegan diet. Yes, I do think they would tell stories to news sites about him killing animals as a young boy if he had.

JMO.

I think those stories were really early on and the family has been very quiet since then, which is as it should be. The pots and pans person was an aunt or cousin who knew him from holiday visits. Only his parents and possibly siblings would know about childhood symptoms. And his parents aren't the ones talking about the bullying OR his childhood. I can't find a single statement from the parents about BK's condition (past or present).

There could be such an article, but I haven't seen it. AFAIK, the info we have about him is all from middle school years or older - mostly high school and then grad school. I do not think his family is going to go the press with information that would damage him at trial, myself.

IMO.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Not sure bullying is correct word.

If a resident had altercations with the attending physician and interns were already complaining about that residents behavior what would that be called?

Certainly not bullying, which was the topic of the discussion. A poster said he was bullying his students. There is no evidence of that.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

I think those stories were really early on and the family has been very quiet since then, which is as it should be. The pots and pans person was an aunt or cousin who knew him from holiday visits. Only his parents and possibly siblings would know about childhood symptoms. And his parents aren't the ones talking about the bullying OR his childhood. I can't find a single statement from the parents about BK's condition (past or present).

There could be such an article, but I haven't seen it. AFAIK, the info we have about him is all from middle school years or older - mostly high school and then grad school. I do not think his family is going to go the press with information that would damage him at trial, myself.

IMO.

That only makes sense if you think he was murdering puppies and kittens and no one outside his parents had any clue. That's not how conduct disorder (which is what leads to antisocial personality disorder) presents.

 

[Dotta]

Certainly not bullying, which was the topic of the discussion. A poster said he was bullying his students. There is no evidence of that.

Intimidating female students (following one to the car park),
intimidating students by not respecting their work by unfair grading -
and all these by taking advantage of being a figure of authority to them.

If it is not a form of bullying, then what it is?

And all these happened at University - a place where young people were supposed to be taught by academics who are their MENTORS.

JMO

 

[10ofRods]

That only makes sense if you think he was murdering puppies and kittens and no one outside his parents had any clue. That's not how conduct disorder (which is what leads to antisocial personality disorder) presents.

I'm not sure how you pulled that out of my post. I just said we don't know. His family has said nothing. I have zero thoughts about whether or not he killed puppies nor have I ever mentioned conduct disorder. Personally, nothing I know about him fits in that category. Why are we discussing it? I'm confused.

Are you saying that his parents and siblings have talked about his childhood? That was my point. To my knowledge, they have not. I am asking others to confirm that. I am not asserting anything about his childhood until we have facts.

IMO.

 

[Boxer]

Certainly not bullying, which was the topic of the discussion. A poster said he was bullying his students. There is no evidence of that.

Agree "bullying" in the sense taking their lunch money is maybe not quite right, what would you call it?
Altercations are aggression, an attempt to dominate.