Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #179

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I'm just curious if the recent State's response has changed any minds in the questions of RA's attorneys honesty or lack there of? Has it thrown a wrench into anyone's belief that AB & BR are competent, ethical and the right attorneys to be defending a man's life?

Edit, sorry I forgot the link:
I don't take the word of any prosecution at face value without a healthy dose of skepticism.

I don't take the word of any defense at face value without a healthy dose of skepticism.

It's an adversarial court system. They are supposed to advocate for their respective sides. The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.
 
I feel fine at knowing a man who has openly confessed to the crime is locked up until he is found guilty or released. At the end of the day he can cause no other family’s the horrific pain he has already caused these two family’s.

Thankfully I have never had to go though what they have had to and I wish nobody else had to in the future. I trust LE have the right man locked up and they have taken somebody who is a threat to society out of community. All my sympathies lay with the families of the deceased who have had their entire worlds shattered though no fault of their own.

MOO
What if they beat that confession out of him? Threatened his loved ones? Do you not think that happens in this world? Because I can promise you it does.

I'm not on RA's side. I I don't know him. Don't care about him. Not a single bit. If he committed this crime and is convicted, I won't waste a single second of my life crying for him.

But the simple truth is that we have no personal knowledge what actually happened. No personal knowledge at all, none of us. Just what we have been told. How do I measure one man's word against the next. Well, I rely on a jury of 12 to tell me how they see it. I know you think he is guilty. I have zero problem with that. I do have a problem destroying another's life without equity.
 
What if they beat that confession out of him? Threatened his loved ones? Do you not think that happens in this world? Because I can promise you it does.

I'm not on RA's side. I I don't know him. Don't care about him. Not a single bit. If he committed this crime and is convicted, I won't waste a single second of my life crying for him.

But the simple truth is that we have no personal knowledge what actually happened. No personal knowledge at all, none of us. Just what we have been told. How do I measure one man's word against the next. Well, I rely on a jury of 12 to tell me how they see it. I know you think he is guilty. I have zero problem with that. I do have a problem destroying another's life without equity.

I am sure it does and we see Police brutality and corruption all the time. But from what I have heard so far and the video of BG I believe it’s RA. I believe he is a threat to society and children and so therefore until trial for the safety of others he is in the right place.
I also believe he is capable of committing suicide so that’s also another reason to have him guarded so he can not escape justice.

I am stubborn and head strong but if he is found not innocent I’ll hold my hands up and say I was wrong but so far that’s not the vibe I’m getting. I think he has been caught banged to rights.
 
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@Salah11

First, I really want you to know I am not singling you out, and I really do respect your opinion. I'm an attorney, I argue with other attorneys to make money, and sometimes it is hard to turn that off. And I don't want you, or anyone else here, to feel like their opinion doesn't matter. You guys are all great in my book.

It's not about being right or wrong for me. I don't want anyone to hang their head in shame if the verdict isn't what they feel is right.
 
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I don't take the word of any prosecution at face value without a healthy dose of skepticism.

I don't take the word of any defense at face value without a healthy dose of skepticism.

It's an adversarial court system. They are supposed to advocate for their respective sides. The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.
I can agree with that concept. But does it fall under zealous defense or unethical lying?
 
IMOO, there are two sides to the coin here. If there is a legitimate concern for safety (and I believe there likely was/is), then fine if the Carroll County jail was not the place for him. At the hearing, there was another county jail (I'm sorry I can't recall which one), where they said even though they didn't want him there, they could take him. Instead of moving him there, the focus became that he wasn't treated any differently than any other prisoner in prison, so he can stay put. Except, that argument is comparing his treatment to that of other convicted felons, not other in-custody defendants. Regardless, it was decided to keep him within the IDOC, moving between prisons, all the while, being housed in a situation where he cannot have decent conferencing with his attorneys about his case. Why couldn't he have been placed in the county jail who said they could take him and provided the opportunity to not have to defend himself through a meal tray slot? Guilt or innocence is not a factor in this.

Then, while the world talks about the D team, accusing them of purposefully leaking CS photos despite JH even calling AB a "victim," we have NMcL looking at defense work product in the leak investigation, admittedly reading multiple ex parte motions, etc., and not a peep about it. Again, guilt or innocence is not a factor in this.

Appellate, habeas, and other defense attorneys discussing the law and closely watching this case (sometimes even stepping in) are suddenly only out for fame and fortune? Nobody wants to see an innocent man imprisoned, and nobody wants to see a guilty man walk. My feeling is there are a lot of people, like CW, ML, and MA who are saying something NOW so that it can be addressed in the moment instead of through appeals. They are explaining the laws publicly because so many are too focused on guilt or innocence, even though we haven't even seen all the evidence yet. Why not put more of our efforts into making sure it's a fair trial? JMO.
@TL4S So much all of this!

It is a fundamental principle of our justice system that we are innocent until proven guilty. I'm not talking about people discussing this; I have zero problem with people debating one's culpability. But as a civilized society, we are above throwing people in cages indefinitely prior to a trial (I would hope). Time is one of those things in life you don't get back (life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness). Taking it from someone shouldn't be a trivial matter.

As far as criticism of the defense, well, it is what it is. Most persons don't have a job where you can have your life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness removed from you for a mistake on the job. These attorneys, on both sides, can lose their ability to practice their profession permanently and be thrown in jail. It's not a game to them. They take pride in their work and really believe in what they are doing.
Here, here!

Thank you for taking the time to share (IMO) some reason and common sense. :)
You point to some good lessons to take away from this crazy case, should anyone be interested in good lessons.

The conditions RA is held under are extreme and unusual and of course, IN can do better. Having a light on RA's situation tells Indiana this could happen to anyone. It's up to Indiana to care about it, to do better, or not.

This case has taken some totally unexpected turns ... a 5 year winding investigation ... a trip to the SCOIN even ... which frustrate some ... and others find fascinating. There's much here to learn about the justice system, the process. There's even room to study social media/true crime/misinformation and its (potential) positive/negative influence on the process.

For me, the sport of bashing of Officers of the Court makes about as much sense as the sport of kitting out, measuring, and ID-ing the pixel avatar tool LE named Bridge Guy. The sport/art of litigation, I'm all in. We're all here for different reasons ... and we all can learn something along the way ... or not.

ETA: Just want to add, that whatever we (the public) take away from this experience, however we grow wiser, kinder, empathetic, smarter ... has been inspired by 2 sweet young teens, their families and this quintessential little Indiana town of Delphi and their incredible strength and grace.

JMHO
 
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What if they beat that confession out of him? Threatened his loved ones? Do you not think that happens in this world? Because I can promise you it does.

I'm not on RA's side. I I don't know him. Don't care about him. Not a single bit. If he committed this crime and is convicted, I won't waste a single second of my life crying for him.

But the simple truth is that we have no personal knowledge what actually happened. No personal knowledge at all, none of us. Just what we have been told. How do I measure one man's word against the next. Well, I rely on a jury of 12 to tell me how they see it. I know you think he is guilty. I have zero problem with that. I do have a problem destroying another's life without equity.
Under 24 hour surveillance they beat RA into telling his wife and mother he killed the girls? He even wrote a letter to the warden at one point, didn't he, before he confessed? Seems like if he really wanted to confess because he was threatened into it, he'd have called his lawyers and confessed to LE?
 
RA = BG = Killer outsmarted in the end by Libby herself. It shouldn't have been so, but her video helped bring him down. What a smart, courageous young girl.

I agree RA knew there was a phone, but as you said, probably never suspected he was being filmed. When it started to ring when Libby's Dad began looking for her, I'm sure he thought the smartest thing to do would be to leave it and get the heck of there ASAP.

JMO
Or it's possible Libby had it ringer off, just vibrate?
 
Under 24 hour surveillance they beat RA into telling his wife and mother he killed the girls? He even wrote a letter to the warden at one point, didn't he, before he confessed? Seems like if he really wanted to confess because he was threatened into it, he'd have called his lawyers and confessed to LE?
@sunshineray I wrote that in a hypothetical manner. Captors that have bad motives don't usually let their captives out for a phone call. And again, I don't know if he wrote a warden or not. For all I know he painted the Mona Lisa. I'll listen to both sides at trial and figure the facts out for myself. If others want to stew on conjecture, that's fine with me. I'm a live and let live kinda guy. :)
 
I am stubborn and head strong but if he is found not guilty then I’ll hold my hands up and say I was wrong but...
I'm equally stubborn and I wish I could say that, but that's just not me. If RA gets proven guilty (in my mind) and gets off somehow, I don't see myself saying I was wrong. Silence would be the best I could muster (and I'm not known for my silence.)
Just keepin' it real.
 
But how are you so certain that they are? I'm not certain they are. I'm not there every day, and again I have no personal knowledge at all...I don't think any of us do.
Because I'm looking at the whole and all the deceptive statements and actions this defense are associated with. They've been extremely nebulous and misleading in their words and deeds. AJMO
 
I'm equally stubborn and I wish I could say that, but that's just not me. If RA gets proven guilty (in my mind) and gets off somehow, I don't see myself saying I was wrong. Silence would be the best I could muster (and I'm not known for my silence.)
Just keepin' it real.

Yes sorry I phased that badly. If he gets off and I believe I was wrong and he is innocent then I’ll admit that.

But if he somehow avoids justice because of technicality then I wouldn’t admit was wrong as I would believe he has escaped justice.
 
@sunshineray I wrote that in a hypothetical manner. Captors that have bad motives don't usually let their captives out for a phone call. And again, I don't know if he wrote a warden or not. For all I know he painted the Mona Lisa. I'll listen to both sides at trial and figure the facts out for myself. If others want to stew on conjecture, that's fine with me. I'm a live and let live kinda guy. :)
Wasn't that letter mentioned in a prosecution filing? I too am waiting for a trial. It's not looking good for May right now, IMO
 
Because I'm looking at the whole and all the deceptive statements and actions this defense are associated with. They've been extremely nebulous and misleading in their words and deeds. AJMO
You have relied on the word of others to come to that conclusion. Not personal knowledge, correct? You rely on the documents the prosecution has filed to make you feel this way, right?

I guess because I practice law, I know the game, and that makes me feel differently than most. Does not make my opinion the better one; in fact, probably the opposite. But I get the same nasty taste in my mouth when I hear of injustice that I do as when two beautiful girls lives are taken from them.
 
You have relied on the word of others to come to that conclusion. Not personal knowledge, correct? You rely on the documents the prosecution has filed to make you feel this way, right?

I guess because I practice law, I know the game, and that makes me feel differently than most. Does not make my opinion the better one; in fact, probably the opposite. But I get the same nasty taste in my mouth when I hear of injustice that I do as when two beautiful girls lives are taken from them.
Yes my sensibilities and leanings come from personal experience concerning Law Enforcement and their extreme value to our society. I'm still waiting for the trial to make up my mind as to RA's guilt. There's an ever so slight reasonable doubt still intact :)
 
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