Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #179

[Emma Peel]

You have relied on the word of others to come to that conclusion. Not personal knowledge, correct? You rely on the documents the prosecution has filed to make you feel this way, right?

I guess because I practice law, I know the game, and that makes me feel differently than most. Does not make my opinion the better one; in fact, probably the opposite. But I get the same nasty taste in my mouth when I hear of injustice that I do as when two beautiful girls lives are taken from them.

Oh, I sure do appreciate the game analogy.
Lawyers must play to meet their opponent's play ... on the field they're on ... per game rules ... in front of the ref that's pulled referee duty. Moving parts, no straight lines. Plays are prepared in advance and ready; whether a play is used ... depends upon what the opposition brings. Like I said, I'm here for the game (strategy/arguments/debate/law). I find it very interesting. And very American.

 

[layer]

Yes my sensibilities and leanings come from personal experience concerning Law Enforcement and their extreme value to our society.

I'd say artists and doctors were of extreme value. But cops? Since the dawn of time the law has been what defined civilized societies. Without the law and those that enforce it there would be no peace. Justice can be a fickle mistress but without peace there is only savagery. LE is critical to our society.
JMHO

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

Please remember this is a discussion site, not a court of law. Discuss the case itself rather than discussing other members. Members aren't here to be chastised or somehow made feel guilty for their contributions to the discussion.

Thank you.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I knew this would be a response. Will throwing an innocent person in prison bring those girls back? And that's the rub. It won't, no matter how much we wish it to be. Robbed by someone of the rest of their lives. How do you feel it is justice to take that same time we have on this Earth away from someone else? Our government should not be in the business of taking that time away without fairness IMO. That is why it is important for prosecution and defense both to work as hard as they possibly can to strive towards that fairness. It saddens me that not all feel that way.

EDIT: added IMO

You are right.
Throwing an innocent person in prison will not bring Libby and Abby or any victim of a murder back.
Also, putting guilty people in jail will not bring any murder victim back.
So, why bother having a trial for any of them. Maybe just give them a stiff talking to, and hurry them back on the streets or back to their families. We would not want to take up any of their precious time on earth worrying about how they destroyed others’ families.
As far as prosecutors and defense attorneys working hard on fairness, how about working hard on finding truth.

 

[sunshineray]

I knew this would be a response. Will throwing an innocent person in prison bring those girls back? And that's the rub. It won't, no matter how much we wish it to be. Robbed by someone of the rest of their lives. How do you feel it is justice to take that same time we have on this Earth away from someone else? Our government should not be in the business of taking that time away without fairness IMO. That is why it is important for prosecution and defense both to work as hard as they possibly can to strive towards that fairness. It saddens me that not all feel that way.

EDIT: added IMO

Agreed, and that fairness should included truthfulness or what are we left with?

 

[mrjitty]

I'm just curious if the recent State's response has changed any minds in the questions of RA's attorneys honesty or lack there of? Has it thrown a wrench into anyone's belief that AB & BR are competent, ethical and the right attorneys to be defending a man's life?

Edit, sorry I forgot the link:

State’s Response to 3rd Franks Motion

drive.google.com

It's kind of amazing that a month before trial, someone they said was a critical witness suddenly seems useless for them. Did they never really intend to run all this Odinist stuff or will they have a different Odin expert now? Turco was supposedly the witness who connected the staging to Odinism in the first place

As you know, I've always been suspicious the original franks was full of carefully curated content to make a mountain out of a molehill.

 

[sunshineray]

You are right.
Throwing an innocent person in prison will not bring Libby and Abby or any victim of a murder back.
Also, putting guilty people in jail will not bring any murder victim back.
So, why bother having a trial for any of them. Maybe just give them a stiff talking to, and hurry them back on the streets or back to their families. We would not want to take up any of their precious time on earth worrying about how they destroyed others’ families.
As far as prosecutors and defense attorneys working hard on fairness, how about working hard on finding truth.

The truth is the easiest answer. It's not always the most sought after one though, unfortunately. I pray the truth is revealed to and recognized by the jury in this case.

 

[layer]

As far as prosecutors and defense attorneys working hard on fairness, how about working hard on finding truth.

Is that really either's job, though? I thought the P's job was to prove RA did it, the D's job is to make them do that. Overly simplistic, sure. Like me.

 

[sunshineray]

It's kind of amazing that a month before trial, someone they said was a critical witness suddenly seems useless for them. Did they never really intend to run all this Odinist stuff or will they have a different Odin expert now? Turco was supposedly the witness who connected the staging to Odinism in the first place

As you know, I've always been suspicious the original franks was full of carefully curated content to make a mountain out of a molehill.

Yes and not crafted all that well, just for volume and shock effect. All Just My Opinion

 

[AugustWest]

You are right.
Throwing an innocent person in prison will not bring Libby and Abby or any victim of a murder back.
Also, putting guilty people in jail will not bring any murder victim back.
So, why bother having a trial for any of them. Maybe just give them a stiff talking to, and hurry them back on the streets or back to their families. We would not want to take up any of their precious time on earth worrying about how they destroyed others’ families.
As far as prosecutors and defense attorneys working hard on fairness, how about working hard on finding truth.

Agreed, and that fairness should included truthfulness or what are we left with?

The way our system is set up (adversarial, trial by jury) reveals the closest approximation to the truth we will get, in my opinion.

@StarryStarryNight We should have trials to determine the truth and act accordingly. That could be a conviction for RA, or it could be a renewed search for whomever is responsible for all this. Our system isn't perfect, but I am not smarter than all those who have come before us and laid out how we conduct it.

 

[AugustWest]

Wasn't that letter mentioned in a prosecution filing? I too am waiting for a trial. It's not looking good for May right now, IMO

@sunshineray Sorry, I knew I forgot to answer a quote. As far as a trial in May, I do believe the date will hold. A motion for speedy trial has been made, and it benefits a defense more for both or either side to be unprepared in my opinion. Simply because a defense doesn't have to prove anything.

 

[Pyrite]

What about the victims families and friends do they not also have rights to be allowed the freedom of knowing that the man accused of killing their daughters is locked up and not a threat to them?

Or should a man accused of killing 2 teenage girls still be around children and working in the local CVS?!!

The threshold to charge him and stick him on trial must of been met so he is in the right place until trial. He is deemed a danger to society.



You mean in the same way he stole Libby and Abby’s entire life’s ?

Mooo

It hasn’t been proven the RA stole Abby and Libby’s life. There was probable cause to arrest RA. That isn’t the same as Beyond a Reasonable Doubt needed to convict him. Without a fair trial, we won’t know. Many people are arrested that are later found to be actually innocent of the crime they were arrested for. Until convicted, RA should be treated like any other person arrested for murder, but not convicted.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

It's kind of amazing that a month before trial, someone they said was a critical witness suddenly seems useless for them. Did they never really intend to run all this Odinist stuff or will they have a different Odin expert now? Turco was supposedly the witness who connected the staging to Odinism in the first place

As you know, I've always been suspicious the original franks was full of carefully curated content to make a mountain out of a molehill.

I do think it’s important to note that in the prosecution’s Response, it is Turco that points out that the defense team has misrepresented and lied about what he said, not the prosecution. Turco, as you pointed out, was probably going to be a big witness for the defense. He was their gateway to their Odinist theory. He may have torpedoed their case instead. He certainly has shown just how dishonest the defense are and they fooled a lot of people. RA needs better than this.
The first Franks Motion was indeed a crafted fantasy. It is filled with these types of things footnoted by unsubstantiated and irrelevant references.

 

[Salah11]

It hasn’t been proven the RA stole Abby and Libby’s life. There was probable cause to arrest RA. That isn’t the same as Beyond a Reasonable Doubt needed to convict him. Without a fair trial, we won’t know. Many people are arrested that are later found to be actually innocent of the crime they were arrested for. Until convicted, RA should be treated like any other person arrested for murder, but not convicted.

In a court of law yes but he has confessed 5/6 times so he also seems pretty sure he did it. So I will take his word for it which I’m allowed to do I believe. After all it was multiple confessions.

 

[sunshineray]

Is that really either's job, though? I thought the P's job was to prove RA did it, the D's job is to make them do that. Overly simplistic, sure. Like me.

Well isn't it apparent ethical LE and prosecutors prove a person's guilt with truthful evidence?

 

[sunshineray]

@sunshineray Sorry, I knew I forgot to answer a quote. As far as a trial in May, I do believe the date will hold. A motion for speedy trial has been made, and it benefits a defense more for both or either side to be unprepared in my opinion. Simply because a defense doesn't have to prove anything.

I hope you're right about that speedy trial.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Before the Prosecution’s Response yesterday, I thought JG would find the defense in contempt and just fine them but certainly not dismiss them. Not after the giant circus the defense manufactured in January.
Now, seeing how truly disreputable they are, a ton worse than I thought, I’m not so sure.
I’m sure she is hesitant to dismiss them thanks to the SCOIN, but it certainly is warranted. They are not representing RA at all, and surely not doing him any favors by acting like jacklegs. RA deserves better. I would hate for the trial to be delayed…again…but this isn’t right.
The best course would be a plea deal, in my opinion.
What are y’all’s thoughts?

 

[susiQ]

Just a recap on Liggett and Holeman’s depositions, FM Pg 129

BBM

“Part V- Richard Allen has no ties to Odinism or any Religious Cult and has no ties to the crime scene.”

“Tony Liggett has testified under oath that there is no DNA linking Richard Allen to the crime scene.184 Liggett further has testified that he is unaware of anything that links Richard to the crime through his phone, computers or electronics.185
Liggett has further testified that he is unaware of any evidence that links Richard Allen to any weird religious cult group.186

Jerry Holeman has testified to the following: There is no DNA linking Richard Allen to the crime scene.187
No data extracted from Richard Allen’s phone connects him to the murders.188 No data extracted from Libby’s phone connected Richard the murders. 189 There is no evidence that Richard Allen is or was connected to any other suspects in the case.190 There is no evidence found on social media that connects Richard Allen to the murders.191
There is no evidence extracted from Richard Allen’s computers that connects him to the murders. 192
There is no fingerprint evidence that connects Richard Allen to the murders.193”

Since it is a crime for LE to lie in a deposition, and we are LE friendly here, shouldn’t we believe them?? JMO

FINAL DRAFT - 9.17 at 6.30 pm - Delphi Franks brief.pdf | PDF Host

PDF Host read free online - FINAL DRAFT - 9.17 at 6.30 pm - Delphi Franks brief.pdf - ANDREW J. BALDWIN

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[steeltowngirl]

The FM is focused on evidence the defense believes LE does not have, and alternate angles they believe were not fully investigated. Notably, defense didn’t discuss the evidence that LE DOES have.

As the saying goes - absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. LE could have more. Much more. Defense is preparing with experts in digital forensics. There’s a reason for that.

We will just have to wait a bit longer to see what the reason is.

jmo

 

[vinayd]

Yes well maybe not his main number but there will be stuff on one or more burners. MOO