Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #3

[JLZ]

Next question. If you re-hydrate mushrooms from dry, do they revert to their original size or are they shrunk from their original size? If the latter, you'd need a lot more mushrooms than the recipe called for, just to get enough bulk.

Most of the moisture is evaporated in the preparation of the paste. So I don't know that the prior volume of the mushrooms would be relevant.

 

[RickshawFan]

Yes, but if the timeframe corresponds that's assuming the poison was taken at the lunch!

And the lunch is one common denominator. It doesn't mean there aren't others.

The lunch might have been the only common denominator, and a very likely source if the illness was severe and gastrointestinal. An extreme vomiting/diarrhea common denominator would generally mean a comestible.

Apparently, the difference between regular food poisoning and amanita poisoning is that they wouldn't be able to stop the latter (nothing works), it's extreme, and then there's a period of a few days where you feel like you've recovered. This would be a unique profile, and it's specific to death caps, as is the follow-up destruction of the liver.

IMO we need to trust the docs' protocol on this one.

 

[RickshawFan]

Could even be a snack they shared if they travelled in the same vehicle to and from the lunch.
Those people went to hospital feeling pretty ill and with symptoms of poisoning.
Stool and urine and blood samples would be taken as a matter of routine.
They should be present in those..
They were hospitalised within 36 hrs of the lunch from what I am gathering from unreliable media.. Amanita is present if it is. I put a link up on diagnostic tests available and routinely used in Aus, yesterday. It's not a complicated test..
BUT I remember doing research on other highly toxic mushrooms a few threads back, some are strikingly similar in the symptoms they produce.

It's impossible to guess at it.

The victims would have had liver and renal function monitored constantly which would show poisoning progressive damage despite their best efforts to save them.
She allegedly provided a sample of leftover lunch for further examination, possibly while they were hospitalised but before they died.
I don't have a clue what their bio tests or the tests of her food yielded.

It's a mystery.
All of it.

Strychnine, for example goes like this

Strychnine

Learn more about strychnine and what to do if you are exposed.

emergency.cdc.gov

As I read that article on strychnine, it seems to have an obviously different "signature". For instance, onset is very quick, the symptoms that stand out are respiratory, unusual muscle response, and kidneys. Dark urine would be an easy tell for the latter. Liver damage is only "possibly". No mention of vomiting or diarrhea or other gastro. I would speculate the 4 wouldn't have made it down the end of the street before they became incapacitated if the source had been strychnine. If it was in something they ate before the lunch, they wouldn't have made it to the lunch, IMO.

• Following the ingestion (swallowing) of strychnine, symptoms of poisoning usually appear within 15 to 60 minutes.
• People exposed to low or moderate doses of strychnine by any route will have the following signs or symptoms:
  
  • Agitation
  • Apprehension or fear
  • Ability to be easily startled
  • Restlessness
  • Painful muscle spasms possibly leading to fever and to kidney and liver injury
  • Uncontrollable arching of the neck and back
  • Rigid arms and legs
  • Jaw tightness
  • Muscle pain and soreness
  • Difficulty breathing
  • Dark urine
  • Initial consciousness and awareness of symptoms
• People exposed to high doses of strychnine may have the following signs and symptoms within the first 15 to 30 minutes of exposure:
  
  • Respiratory failure (inability to breathe), possibly leading to death
  • Brain death

 

[RickshawFan]

Most of the moisture is evaporated in the preparation of the paste. So I don't know that the prior volume of the mushrooms would be relevant.

You de-hydrate them, then re-hydrate them, and then de-hydrate them? Why oh why wouldn't you just stick to an old-fashioned beef stew with pastry on top, prepared and served with love?

 

[bearbear]

As I read that article on strychnine, it seems to have an obviously different "signature". For instance, onset is very quick, there is respiratory distress, rigidity, brain death. Dark urine would be an easy tell. Liver damage is only "possibly". No mention of vomiting or diarrhea. I would speculate the 4 wouldn't have made it down the end of the street before they became incapacitated if the source had been strychnine. If it was in something they ate before the lunch, they wouldn't have made it to the lunch.

• Following the ingestion (swallowing) of strychnine, symptoms of poisoning usually appear within 15 to 60 minutes.
• People exposed to low or moderate doses of strychnine by any route will have the following signs or symptoms:
  
  • Agitation
  • Apprehension or fear
  • Ability to be easily startled
  • Restlessness
  • Painful muscle spasms possibly leading to fever and to kidney and liver injury
  • Uncontrollable arching of the neck and back
  • Rigid arms and legs
  • Jaw tightness
  • Muscle pain and soreness
  • Difficulty breathing
  • Dark urine
  • Initial consciousness and awareness of symptoms
• People exposed to high doses of strychnine may have the following signs and symptoms within the first 15 to 30 minutes of exposure:
  
  • Respiratory failure (inability to breathe), possibly leading to death
  • Brain death

arsenic poisoning has similar symptoms and time frame to dc mushrooms, but probably need a larger dose, its found in older rat poisons, im not suggesting ep used arsenic, just trying to source alternate poisoning scenarios

 

[bearbear]

Most of the moisture is evaporated in the preparation of the paste. So I don't know that the prior volume of the mushrooms would be relevant.

or would it be easier to add dried powdered mushroom for the paste?

 

[JLZ]

You de-hydrate them, then re-hydrate them, and then de-hydrate them? Why oh why wouldn't you just stick to an old-fashioned beef stew with pastry on top, prepared and served with love?

or would it be easier to add dried powdered mushroom for the paste?

The recipe I've seen, you would not rehydrate dried mushrooms, you'd grind them to a powder and use them that way.

 

[jjleroche]

Yes, but if the timeframe corresponds that's assuming the poison was taken at the lunch!

And the lunch is one common denominator. It doesn't mean there aren't others.

I agree. Both couples apparently lived in Korumburra IIRC, and EP lived in Leongatha.

IMO there's a good chance that the four victims travelled to EP's place in the same car. If so, when one of the couples was being dropped back home, they may well have invited the other couple in for a "cuppa", particularly given that the two women were sisters.

If this occurred, the two couples may have even eaten an evening meal together. Just one example of a plausible common denominator. MOO

 

[kittythehare]

As I read that article on strychnine, it seems to have an obviously different "signature". For instance, onset is very quick, the symptoms that stand out are respiratory, unusual muscle response, and kidneys. Dark urine would be an easy tell for the latter. Liver damage is only "possibly". No mention of vomiting or diarrhea or other gastro. I would speculate the 4 wouldn't have made it down the end of the street before they became incapacitated if the source had been strychnine. If it was in something they ate before the lunch, they wouldn't have made it to the lunch, IMO.

• Following the ingestion (swallowing) of strychnine, symptoms of poisoning usually appear within 15 to 60 minutes.
• People exposed to low or moderate doses of strychnine by any route will have the following signs or symptoms:
  
  • Agitation
  • Apprehension or fear
  • Ability to be easily startled
  • Restlessness
  • Painful muscle spasms possibly leading to fever and to kidney and liver injury
  • Uncontrollable arching of the neck and back
  • Rigid arms and legs
  • Jaw tightness
  • Muscle pain and soreness
  • Difficulty breathing
  • Dark urine
  • Initial consciousness and awareness of symptoms
• People exposed to high doses of strychnine may have the following signs and symptoms within the first 15 to 30 minutes of exposure:
  
  • Respiratory failure (inability to breathe), possibly leading to death
  • Brain death

I wasn't using it as a straight up comparison, just a single example of millions that will lead to liver damage and death..
You must understand we do not know what their presenting symptoms were.
Or how their disease progressed and what substances that progression is similar to in speed and extent and organ damage.
We know how amanita progresses because we can study it in peer reviewed scholarly articles that are cited.

That is simple.
Accurate
Trustworthy sourcing.

Medical records are not accessible to us.

 

[SouthAussie]

Simon Patterson has addressed a gathering of about 300 people at the memorial this afternoon.
He described being with his parents as they died one day apart. He said that they were very much a team.
He said they were thoughtful and generous people, lived in their faith, and had journeyed across the world as missionaries.
He cried as he remembered his parents not allowing them to say "hate" or "liar" when they were young.

Don had a liver transplant, but it was too late. The damage to his body was too severe.

A live band played Amazing Grace, there were mourner books to sign, fresh lemonade and tea.

(paraphrased)

‘They were very much a team’: Son reveals final moments of mushroom poisoning victims

Simon Patterson has paid tribute to his parents at a memorial service in the Gippsland town of Korumburra.

www.theage.com.au

 

[jjleroche]

Having suspicion and being able to prove it are two different things. This case is going to hinge on forensic evidence such as toxin analysis which takes time to obtain.

*//Having suspicion and being able to prove it are two different things. This case is going to hinge on forensic evidence such as toxin analysis which taThe prosecution would need to prove intenmt

Even if it were proven via forensic evidence that the victims' deaths were caused by consumption of the meal prepared by EP, proof of intent to murder must also be established. IMO that will be difficult.

 

[SouthAussie]

Sounds like mum (Gail) was coherent and communicating at least part of her time in the hospital.

But then she went into a coma.


As she lay dying in hospital after eating a suspected poisonous mushroom lunch, Gail Patterson posted a final message in her family group chat.

“Lots of love to you all.”

The final text was revealed by her son Simon Patterson at a memorial service for his mum and his dad, Don Patterson, held in Korumburra on Thursday afternoon.

“As Mum and Dad lay in comas in the hospital in their final days and each day … we were unsure if they would recover or not ....... "

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/memorial-held-for-don-and-gail-patterson-after-fatal-mushroom-lunch-in-leongatha/news-story/00f202ec7a0688ffebd517404ecc3eb6

 

[JLZ]

Even if it were proven via forensic evidence that the victims' deaths were caused by consumption of the meal prepared by EP, proof of intent to murder must also be established. IMO that will be difficult.

Full intention to kill, intention to cause grievous bodily harm, reckless indifference to human life, or (for manslaughter) severe negligence.

Manslaughter Murder Homicide laws Victoria |Criminal legal

Murder is probably the most serious offence occurring in Australia and is defined as the unlawful and intentional killing of another human being by a person of sound mind, who has no legal reason to do so.

victoria.criminallegal.com.au

 

[RickshawFan]

I wasn't using it as a straight up comparison, just a single example of millions that will lead to liver damage and death..
You must understand we do not know what their presenting symptoms were.
Or how their disease progressed and what substances that progression is similar to in speed and extent and organ damage.
We know how amanita progresses because we can study it in peer reviewed scholarly articles that are cited.

That is simple.
Accurate
Trustworthy sourcing.

Medical records are not accessible to us.

Physicians have decision-making trees that are scientifically-based. They eliminate by differential diagnosis. I would tend to trust their trained and experienced analysis. If they point to death cap, that’s the source I personally would go with.

 

[Salah11]

Measuring the Speed of Wheels of Justice?

@Salah11 Respectfully, this is Real Life.
Not a tv drama or movie in which crimes occur w LE investigations and prosecutions following at breakneck paces, w slam dunk convictions.

Not suprising to me that no arrest has been made (yet).

BTW, LE silence does not indicate "no movement" in the investigation, or that an arrest could not happen tomorrow. We/members of the public do not know.

Omg this is real life I wish I had known


You don’t have to agree with me because this is damaging to all involved that Australia LE are being so slow.

I believe she is involved but on the other hand she could be completely innocent and her life is being torn apart , her children taken away from her and everything she has ever done wrong in her life is fair game to the world . Or on the other hand she is a danger to the community as she has poisoned 4 people.


So yes I am judging the speed here because it’s 2023 and not 1993.


<modsnip - off topic>

IMO

 

[ch_13]

Even if it were proven via forensic evidence that the victims' deaths were caused by consumption of the meal prepared by EP, proof of intent to murder must also be established. IMO that will be difficult.

Would it really be that difficult?

Let's say—just hypothetically—that the forensic evidence showed that the four victims ingested death cap mushrooms and that those spores were present in the meal that EP served. In that case, the prosecution could introduce the following points of evidence:

1. EP hid evidence by dumping the dehydrator (assuming it was used in the meal prep).
2. She lied to police on two separate occasions and claimed that she only used store-bought mushrooms. Certainly there'd be testimony from mushroom growers, retailers etc. stating that DC mushrooms would never end up for sale in a market.
3. She herself was unscathed by any sickness even though she partook in the meal. Experts may likely have some idea of how she was able to avoid the toxin.
4. Presumably, Simon or others could testify as to motive. Whether that was because of disputes over child custody, or she intended to harm her ex, or some other reason.
5. Perhaps others might testify that she was an expert mushroom forager, as has been reported in the press.

To me that seems sufficient evidence for a jury to infer her intent, although I'll admit I'm not familiar with the standards in Australian courts.

 

[kittythehare]

Physicians have decision-making trees that are scientifically-based. They eliminate by differential diagnosis. I would tend to trust their trained and experienced analysis. If they point to death cap, that’s the source I personally would go with.

We're having the conversation because we do not actually have access to their differential diagnosis or a firm declaration that dc was actually the causative agent..

 

[jepop]

Hi CityKid, I don't understand what you mean saying she lied to police with regard to the driving incident? And what do you mean that she refused to give her details after fleeing? It seems she must have identified herself fairly promptly if she did an alcohol test within three hours. (And I don't know what DWI means so perhaps part of the answer is in that.)

Probably mean DUI - driving under the influence. Within three hours means she identified herself (or was identified) promptly Imo.

 

[SouthAussie]

<modsnip - quoted post, response was snipped>

By the same token, VICPOL (Victoria Police) have a great arrest (and conviction) record in all of their cases that I have followed here.

Impatience is not their way.

 

[jjleroche]

Full intention to kill, intention to cause grievous bodily harm, reckless indifference to human life, or (for manslaughter) severe negligence.

Manslaughter Murder Homicide laws Victoria |Criminal legal

Murder is probably the most serious offence occurring in Australia and is defined as the unlawful and intentional killing of another human being by a person of sound mind, who has no legal reason to do so.

victoria.criminallegal.com.au

If someone is facing a charge of murder (as opposed to manslaughter), under Australian Law, intention to murder must be proven for a successful conviction to occur.

There's certainly a great deal of suspicion and speculation, but that doesn't equate to proof of untent.

MOO