Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #2

[Mel 1303]

Hi everyone, long time lurker, first time poster.

I have a few questions -

1. Does anyone know what year the the Armidale teachers college closed? I am aware from the podcast and from reading back through this thread that the Armidale tip was originally called in in 2003 (I hope thats correct). I know this is probably a crazy theory, but, what if she wasn’t properly qualified (and/or her qualification needed to be updated or something like that) and she went back to the Armidale teachers college under a different name and there met with foul play. I like you, Mel1303 have issues with what college she went to and why there is a discrepancy, just a weird feeling. Probably a crazy thought but anyway!


2. Is the FTRA triggered by withdrawals as well as deposits? Usually when I’ve heard about the FTRA and Austrac reporting its been to do with people depositing money into accounts, not withdrawing it. But the legislation does say that its for cash transactions so that would cover withdrawals too right? Unless she meant to just keep money in cash, wouldn’t depositing money into another bank or account trigger a report to Austrac even if the amounts she deposited into new accounts was under 5k at a time? They look for split payments too don’t they? So strange, this FTRA stuff makes my head hurt when I think about it in too much detail. Also, if she withdrew a heap of money and then if she/or someone else attempted to leave the country with it in cash without declaring it, unless the bag was searched at random, they perhaps could have gotten out of the country with the cash that way… I'm probably just overthinking the FTRA stuff tbh.

3. I know it was discussed here earlier but I just wanted to touch on the passport thing. The podcast said that she flew back into Australia on the Florabella passport. Sally says that her friend in customs told her the date she came back into Australian. BUT how could her friend have looked this up when she didn’t know about the Florabella name change until years later when Gary Sheehan took over? Was it to do with the alias name on the bottom?

4. Would it have been possible at all for her to have gotten a passport issued by the UK or even Luxembourg? I wonder how involved the process would have been for applying for a spouse visa for either of those places back then. My original thoughts have always been that she 1. changed her name to Florabella as a placeholder name to buy some time for her disappearance then 2. had plans to marry someone overseas 3. came back to Australia and applied for a spouse visa for either the UK or maybe Luxembourg and then 4. applied for a passport issued by the other government after that. But after looking into the UK process I don’t think she would’ve been able to do it. If the Florabella passport doesn’t leave the country again, how could she have possibly gotten overseas again? Is it confirmed that there were no further name changes?

Also, one further thing I wanted to say - If I was putting an ad in a newspaper looking to date someone, I would NOT use my real name! Remakel would have arguably been a name a lot of people in Luxembourg would have heard because of his soccer career, I feel there surely is a Luxembourgish connection somewhere but am HIGHLY doubtful it has anything to do with Ferdinand. Along the same vein, its not unlikely that Marion just heard the name Remakel via soccer connections and maybe she liked the sound of the name, without even meeting Ferdinand at all.

One more thing - has anyone ever heard of the Cornelia Rau case? Essentially, a lady was quite mentally unwell and assumed the identity of a German national on holidays in Australia, she gave two named to authorities, neither of which were her real name. She also had someone else’s Norwegian passport and was then detained in a detention centre for 10 months. It was later uncovered that she was mentally unwell and was actually Australian (thats a very rough summary so I hope its accurate enough). I’m sure we would know if Marion ended up in a detention centre but maybe there are some parallels with Cornelia’s case?

Thanks for reading all of my thoughts!

I think it must have been the listing of the alias names on the passport that allowed for Sally's friend to track Marion's passport. I don't know how the searches work, but I find it surprising that during the search nothing came up about the fact the passport was actually under a different name.

In conversations 5, Sally explains that Marion did not qualify for a UK passport. She does, however, explain that Marion's maternal aunt married an English man, and moved to England. Marion talked to one of her friends about visiting an aunt in the UK. Marion has (according to conversations 5) cousins in England and Germany (which borders Luxembourg)- I cant find them yet, but I would be very interested in knowing if any of those cousins resembled Marion. Could one of their passports have been used to leave Australia? Who are the cousins married to, particularly the ones in Germany?

 

[Mel 1303]

Thanks for the welcome!

It's really strange that the podcast didn't ever properly clarify this college point. Perhaps they don't know or as someone else previously mentioned, perhaps the production team like to leave in ambiguous details to spark audience interest.

After thinking on the passport thing a bit longer, yes, the other name would have to be connected in the system because as a previous poster said, if alias names weren't connected, those with criminal records could then just change their names and gain entry into places they otherwise wouldn't have been able to.

If she could stay there legally due to relatives that would explain one part of it, but she would still need to apply for and be granted citizenship before she could apply for a UK passport, at least thats my understanding of the current process to obtain a passport in the UK. I have no clue what the process might be in Luxembourg though. If its true that she really didn't leave the country again on that passport and if its true that she had no further name change, then she either stayed in Australia or left illegally.

Maybe the podcast thinks that leaving things ambiguous sparks audience interest, but for this particular audience member, it raises questions around their credibility.

I asked the question straight up on the facebook page about the college, and it was not answered, ignored, fluffed over- but deleted. There must be a reason why.

 

[Mjjj14]

Maybe the podcast thinks that leaving things ambiguous sparks audience interest, but for this particular audience member, it raises questions around their credibility.

I asked the question straight up on the facebook page about the college, and it was not answered, ignored, fluffed over- but deleted. There must be a reason why.

In my mind, the deleting says there’s more to it and I’d hazard a guess that they don’t know the answer.

You’re a legend for going to have a look at the records in Armidale!

In conversations 5, Sally explains that Marion did not qualify for a UK passport. She does, however, explain that Marion's maternal aunt married an English man, and moved to England. Marion talked to one of her friends about visiting an aunt in the UK. Marion has (according to conversations 5) cousins in England and Germany (which borders Luxembourg)- I cant find them yet, but I would be very interested in knowing if any of those cousins resembled Marion. Could one of their passports have been used to leave Australia? Who are the cousins married to, particularly the ones in Germany?

I better go back and listen to conversations 5. Finding those cousins really would be interesting, maybe one or her overseas relatives helped her send postcards periodically etc. I do think she had to have had some help.

I also saw on the Facebook page that people were commenting to attempt to clarify the “no other person by the name Remakel has entered the country since 1990” comment and whether it means that someone entered pre 1990 or if that’s just where the search started. The podcast team hasn’t given any answer to that. I’d hedge my bets on it’s just where the search started.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

delete

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Okay, so now I've become obsessed with the Kenja sect/cult, re mjjj14's recent post. Found this article, alarmingly similar circumstances to Marion. Wondering now if Marion signed up for one of their courses and got caught up in it ... her behaviour before travelling OS is remarkably similar. A snippet from a Cornelia Rau article re Kenja “.... recruits are required to confess and write down their darkest secrets” which were later “used to blackmail them if they attempt to leave the group”. H'mm, wonder if this Ken Dyers fellow or Jan (wife) had any contacts in Tunbridge Wells/Sussex. End of spontaneous cult thoughts.
"I left my kids for Kenja group"

 

[Mjjj14]

Okay, so now I've become obsessed with the Kenja sect/cult, re mjjj14's recent post. Found this article, alarmingly similar circumstances to Marion. Wondering now if Marion signed up for one of their courses and got caught up in it ... her behaviour before travelling OS is remarkably similar. A snippet from a Cornelia Rau article re Kenja “.... recruits are required to confess and write down their darkest secrets” which were later “used to blackmail them if they attempt to leave the group”. H'mm, wonder if this Ken Dyers fellow or Jan (wife) had any contacts in Tunbridge Wells/Sussex. End of spontaneous cult thoughts.
"I left my kids for Kenja group"

I always dismissed the idea of sects/cults but the Rau case does draw some parallels doesn't it!

I wonder whether Marion was religious at all? Can you remember if the podcasts ever touched on that?

 

[Mel 1303]

I always dismissed the idea of sects/cults but the Rau case does draw some parallels doesn't it!

I wonder whether Marion was religious at all? Can you remember if the podcasts ever touched on that?

Sally said in one of the podcasts that her mother wasn't particularly religious. The recently released footage of her dancing was taken at a church event, but it was her friend who invited her along, she wasn't a part of the church. It sounds as though it was a social thing.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Yes, I didn't think Marion would join a religious sect either, but hey, this is a course, they called it "a self-development workshop", doesn't seem to be a religious based thing -
"Kenja's focus is on individual personal development and a belief in the spiritual and acknowledging a 'higher consciousness"

I always dismissed the idea of sects/cults but the Rau case does draw some parallels doesn't it!
I wonder whether Marion was religious at all? Can you remember if the podcasts ever touched on that?

No, Sally said she wasn't religious ... oh boy, this group seems to tick all the boxes, I'm really leaning towards a link here now. Just had a look on youtube, the woman in the previous article is talking. Gotta look into this more, boy oh boy!!
Annette Stephens - Beyond Our Ken DVD Extras - Kenja documentary

 

[Mjjj14]

Yes, I didn't think Marion would join a religious sect either, but hey, this is a course, they called it "a self-development workshop", doesn't seem to be a religious based thing -
"Kenja's focus is on individual personal development and a belief in the spiritual and acknowledging a 'higher consciousness"

No, Sally said she wasn't religious ... oh boy, this group seems to tick all the boxes, I'm really leaning towards a link here now. Just had a look on youtube, the woman in the previous article is talking. Gotta look into this more, boy oh boy!!
Annette Stephens - Beyond Our Ken DVD Extras - Kenja documentary

Theres several different people who have come out and claimed that they developed concerning mental health issues after joining the group. Based off the little info we have on her personal life, she does seem like the type who might go to a self-development workshop. Maybe she made some connections via the art group that she attended. They really need to go deeper into investigating that art group!

 

[Jenmarshnifer]

Good afternoon,
For those of you who have asked but not received a reply I can verify that Marion attended Wagga Wagga Teachers College. I hope this helps .

 

[Jenmarshnifer]

I think it must have been the listing of the alias names on the passport that allowed for Sally's friend to track Marion's passport. I don't know how the searches work, but I find it surprising that during the search nothing came up about the fact the passport was actually under a different name.

In conversations 5, Sally explains that Marion did not qualify for a UK passport. She does, however, explain that Marion's maternal aunt married an English man, and moved to England. Marion talked to one of her friends about visiting an aunt in the UK. Marion has (according to conversations 5) cousins in England and Germany (which borders Luxembourg)- I cant find them yet, but I would be very interested in knowing if any of those cousins resembled Marion. Could one of their passports have been used to leave Australia? Who are the cousins married to, particularly the ones in Germany?

 

[Jenmarshnifer]

Marion didn’t visit her aunt in the UK and there is no reason for Sally to believe her cousins travelled on Marion’s passport or Marion’s cousins either.

 

[Jenmarshnifer]

Maybe the podcast thinks that leaving things ambiguous sparks audience interest, but for this particular audience member, it raises questions around their credibility.

I asked the question straight up on the facebook page about the college, and it was not answered, ignored, fluffed over- but deleted. There must be a reason why.

Wagga Wagga Teachers College has been verified by Sally.

 

[Jenmarshnifer]

Hi everyone, long time lurker, first time poster.

I have a few questions -

1. Does anyone know what year the the Armidale teachers college closed? I am aware from the podcast and from reading back through this thread that the Armidale tip was originally called in in 2003 (I hope thats correct). I know this is probably a crazy theory, but, what if she wasn’t properly qualified (and/or her qualification needed to be updated or something like that) and she went back to the Armidale teachers college under a different name and there met with foul play. I like you, Mel1303 have issues with what college she went to and why there is a discrepancy, just a weird feeling. Probably a crazy thought but anyway!


2. Is the FTRA triggered by withdrawals as well as deposits? Usually when I’ve heard about the FTRA and Austrac reporting its been to do with people depositing money into accounts, not withdrawing it. But the legislation does say that its for cash transactions so that would cover withdrawals too right? Unless she meant to just keep money in cash, wouldn’t depositing money into another bank or account trigger a report to Austrac even if the amounts she deposited into new accounts was under 5k at a time? They look for split payments too don’t they? So strange, this FTRA stuff makes my head hurt when I think about it in too much detail. Also, if she withdrew a heap of money and then if she/or someone else attempted to leave the country with it in cash without declaring it, unless the bag was searched at random, they perhaps could have gotten out of the country with the cash that way… I'm probably just overthinking the FTRA stuff tbh.

3. I know it was discussed here earlier but I just wanted to touch on the passport thing. The podcast said that she flew back into Australia on the Florabella passport. Sally says that her friend in customs told her the date she came back into Australian. BUT how could her friend have looked this up when she didn’t know about the Florabella name change until years later when Gary Sheehan took over? Was it to do with the alias name on the bottom?

4. Would it have been possible at all for her to have gotten a passport issued by the UK or even Luxembourg? I wonder how involved the process would have been for applying for a spouse visa for either of those places back then. My original thoughts have always been that she 1. changed her name to Florabella as a placeholder name to buy some time for her disappearance then 2. had plans to marry someone overseas 3. came back to Australia and applied for a spouse visa for either the UK or maybe Luxembourg and then 4. applied for a passport issued by the other government after that. But after looking into the UK process I don’t think she would’ve been able to do it. If the Florabella passport doesn’t leave the country again, how could she have possibly gotten overseas again? Is it confirmed that there were no further name changes?

Also, one further thing I wanted to say - If I was putting an ad in a newspaper looking to date someone, I would NOT use my real name! Remakel would have arguably been a name a lot of people in Luxembourg would have heard because of his soccer career, I feel there surely is a Luxembourgish connection somewhere but am HIGHLY doubtful it has anything to do with Ferdinand. Along the same vein, its not unlikely that Marion just heard the name Remakel via soccer connections and maybe she liked the sound of the name, without even meeting Ferdinand at all.

One more thing - has anyone ever heard of the Cornelia Rau case? Essentially, a lady was quite mentally unwell and assumed the identity of a German national on holidays in Australia, she gave two named to authorities, neither of which were her real name. She also had someone else’s Norwegian passport and was then detained in a detention centre for 10 months. It was later uncovered that she was mentally unwell and was actually Australian (thats a very rough summary so I hope its accurate enough). I’m sure we would know if Marion ended up in a detention centre but maybe there are some parallels with Cornelia’s case?

Thanks for reading all of my thoughts!

Q1
Marion attended Wagga Wagga Teachers college and was a fully qualified and registered teacher. In 1996 she won a best teachers award in Qld and was runner up for NSW.
Q2
Marion had a bank account at the Commonwealth Bank in Au and The Barclays Bank in the UK was used as her overseas address.
Q3
Marion, according to Det G Sheehan travelled on the Florabella passport leaving Au on 22 June 1997 and returning on 2 August 1997 just five weeks later. Sally asked her friend who worked in customs at the time to check if her mothers passport had returned and that is how she knew it had come back and the date. Apparently attached to the passport details are all of the names you have ever had so when he put in Marion Barter it came up even though the passport was by the name of F Remakel.
Q4
Yes, it has been confirmed that Marion’s name never changed again by Deedpoll. Her passport has never left the country again and it expired in 2007 . that’s not to say that Marion hasn’t changed her name unofficially . Her medicare card was never used again after Grafton and she’s never applied for another licence as far as the police investigation can tell. There is no sign of her living in Australia and there is no sign of her travelling again outside or inside of Australia.
It is not known at this time how Marion connects to the Remakel name. She shares the same initials as a man in Luxenbourg which is highly interesting as there is only one person in the world with a name with those initials born in the year as shown on the ad in the Le Courrier.
I hope this helps to clarify a few concerns and thank you for your thoughts and opinions. At this point there are still no real clues to her whereabouts but plenty of questions waiting to be answered by the police and this should lead to clues.
-the signature on the customs card also she said she was in AU for just three days??
- the passenger list
- the departure airport of the plane
- who owned the phone number linked to the newspaper ad in Le Courrier, just to name a few.
Also I might add that Marion did not have a computer or even an email address at the time of her disappearance .

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Sally has posted the following on Facebook today. I know not everyone here uses Facebook and it's very interesting so i thought I'd share it.

"This occurred to me yesterday! Mum went missing in 1997 - last known location Grafton Northern NSW The first magazine article I did was in 2004 Mum was only added to the NSW missing persons register in 2007 (not nationally) I started the Facebook page - Missing Person Marion Barter in 2013 SO! How did the person who called Crime Stoppers in 2002 who said “a woman by the name Marion who went missing from Northern NSW was buried in bush land in Armidale” know she was missing? If the case wasn’t publicized till 2004 how the hell did he know that a Marion was missing and last known to be at Grafton Northern NSW???????????????????????????? The said location in Armidale that the male gave to Crime Stoppers 100% needs to fully searched including SES and volunteers happy to help! To think Det. Gary Sheehan found it on her file years later in 2010 and no one had previously acted on it! On my stars..... no words"

 

[Mel 1303]

Good afternoon,
For those of you who have asked but not received a reply I can verify that Marion attended Wagga Wagga Teachers College. I hope this helps .

Thank you. I haven't heard back from the journalist who wrote the article that said she attended Armidale- it was written as though he had spoken to Sally. He asked for anyone with info to contact him, so he could pass it on to Sally.
Searching for clues to find missing mum

Do you know what year she graduated? Was she already married by then? She doesn't appear to be listed in any of the graduation programs from Wagga Wagga teachers college, from the late 50's through to when they became a CAE. This is one of the reasons people have been asking about it.

 

[Mel 1303]

Sally has posted the following on Facebook today. I know not everyone here uses Facebook and it's very interesting so i thought I'd share it.

"This occurred to me yesterday! Mum went missing in 1997 - last known location Grafton Northern NSW The first magazine article I did was in 2004 Mum was only added to the NSW missing persons register in 2007 (not nationally) I started the Facebook page - Missing Person Marion Barter in 2013 SO! How did the person who called Crime Stoppers in 2002 who said “a woman by the name Marion who went missing from Northern NSW was buried in bush land in Armidale” know she was missing? If the case wasn’t publicized till 2004 how the hell did he know that a Marion was missing and last known to be at Grafton Northern NSW???????????????????????????? The said location in Armidale that the male gave to Crime Stoppers 100% needs to fully searched including SES and volunteers happy to help! To think Det. Gary Sheehan found it on her file years later in 2010 and no one had previously acted on it! On my stars..... no words"

It's a good question.
There is a big discrepancy in the podcast with what happened following the crimestoppers tip. Garry says he went to Armidale in 2010, went to the address supplied by the caller- that the name was bogus and the address was right, but the people had no idea what he was talking about. Garry says he spent two days searching for the site, identified the site, organised SES volunteers, took the volunteers and a cadaver dog to the site and searched for two days. Sally says he searched for one day with the dog and the handler, in the rain. (Episode 5) Both accounts were played next to each other, with no clarification as to who has telling the correct account. Why the producers didn't find out, and edit accordingly is mystifying.

 

[Jenmarshnifer]

Thank you. I haven't heard back from the journalist who wrote the article that said she attended Armidale- it was written as though he had spoken to Sally. He asked for anyone with info to contact him, so he could pass it on to Sally.
Searching for clues to find missing mum

Do you know what year she graduated? Was she already married by then? She doesn't appear to be listed in any of the graduation programs from Wagga Wagga teachers college, from the late 50's through to when they became a CAE. This is one of the reasons people have been asking about it.

 

[Mjjj14]

Q1
Marion attended Wagga Wagga Teachers college and was a fully qualified and registered teacher. In 1996 she won a best teachers award in Qld and was runner up for NSW.
Q2
Marion had a bank account at the Commonwealth Bank in Au and The Barclays Bank in the UK was used as her overseas address.
Q3
Marion, according to Det G Sheehan travelled on the Florabella passport leaving Au on 22 June 1967 and returning on 2 August 1997 just five weeks later. Sally asked her friend who worked in customs at the time to check if her mothers passport had returned and that is how she knew it had come back and the date. Apparently attached to the passport details are all of the names you have ever had so when he put in Marion Barter it came up even though the passport was by the name of F Remakel.
Q4
Yes, it has been confirmed that Marion’s name never changed again by Deedpoll. Her passport has never left the country again and it expired in 2007 . that’s not to say that Marion hasn’t changed her name unofficially . Her medicare card was never used again after Grafton and she’s never applied for another licence as far as the police investigation can tell. There is no sign of her living in Australia and there is no sign of her travelling again outside or inside of Australia.
It is not known at this time how Marion connects to the Remakel name. She shares the same initials as a man in Luxenbourg which is highly interesting as there is only one person in the world with a name with those initials born in the year as shown on the ad in the Le Courrier.
I hope this helps to clarify a few concerns and thank you for your thoughts and opinions. At this point there are still no real clues to her whereabouts but plenty of questions waiting to be answered by the police and this should lead to clues.
-the signature on the customs card
- the passenger list
- the departure airport of the plane
- who owned the phone number linked to the newspaper ad in Le Courrier, just to name a few.
Also I might add that Marion did not have a computer or even an email address at the time of her disappearance .

Hi Jen, thanks for your response.

I know that there were the confirmed account with the CBA and Barclays. I wasn't asking about what accounts Marion/Florabella had, more just wanting to discuss the possible reasonings for FTRA detection avoidance, if thats what the aim of the 5k transactions was and whether the FTRA would have picked up the cash deposits if they were deposited to another unlinked account, perhaps in another persons name.

Thanks for the clarification about Wagga Wagga. It is misreported in some places that she attended Armidale.

I'm familiar with the speculation regarding Ferdinand, however it was confirmed by The Lady Vanishes that nobody with the name Remakel entered the country since 1990, the number in the advertisement was an Australian number, so to me that rules Ferdinand out because he couldn't possibly have been here unless he had an agent in Australia? In my opinion only, I think maybe its just a coincidence.

Re the passport, even if the Florabella passport didn't leave the country again, imo its best not to rule out the possibility that she didn't leave the country again, especially after what she wrote on the incoming passenger card!

I saw Sally's most recent post today about the Armidale search and I really, really hope that NSW police search again, if Ron Iddles is right and the answer is in the file, its just worth checking again, especially if it was only a one day search as Sally says (and I don't have any reason to doubt Sally's recollection of the search).

One last thing - I know that Sally mentioned writing a list of items she wanted to request to send to the coroner. I'm unsure if it can be looked into at all as they may not retain records for this long of a period, but is it possible to request details as to the date of booking for the return flight to Australia, as in, how close to the date of departure was the flight booked. as Nessa in a previous post suggested, it might yield some clue as to whether she returned in a rush or if it was pre-planned. However, I know all to well about the timeframes companies have to retain documents for (usually 7 years) so this information may not be available at all. Just a thought...

Really hoping that Sally gets her answers soon.

 

[Jenmarshnifer]

I asked Sally myself and she replied Wagga Wagga so you can take that as correct.
I’m pretty sure she was a qualified teacher before she married. I don’t know what year she graduated but she married John Warren in 1968 so prior to that .