Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #2

[Jenmarshnifer]

Hi Jen, thanks for your response.

I know that there were the confirmed account with the CBA and Barclays. I wasn't asking about what accounts Marion/Florabella had, more just wanting to discuss the possible reasonings for FTRA detection avoidance, if thats what the aim of the 5k transactions was and whether the FTRA would have picked up the cash deposits if they were deposited to another unlinked account, perhaps in another persons name.

Thanks for the clarification about Wagga Wagga. It is misreported in some places that she attended Armidale.

I'm familiar with the speculation regarding Ferdinand, however it was confirmed by The Lady Vanishes that nobody with the name Remakel entered the country since 1990, the number in the advertisement was an Australian number, so to me that rules Ferdinand out because he couldn't possibly have been here unless he had an agent in Australia? In my opinion only, I think maybe its just a coincidence.

Re the passport, even if the Florabella passport didn't leave the country again, imo its best not to rule out the possibility that she didn't leave the country again, especially after what she wrote on the incoming passenger card!

I saw Sally's most recent post today about the Armidale search and I really, really hope that NSW police search again, if Ron Iddles is right and the answer is in the file, its just worth checking again, especially if it was only a one day search as Sally says (and I don't have any reason to doubt Sally's recollection of the search).

One last thing - I know that Sally mentioned writing a list of items she wanted to request to send to the coroner. I'm unsure if it can be looked into at all as they may not retain records for this long of a period, but is it possible to request details as to the date of booking for the return flight to Australia, as in, how close to the date of departure was the flight booked. as Nessa in a previous post suggested, it might yield some clue as to whether she returned in a rush or if it was pre-planned. However, I know all to well about the timeframes companies have to retain documents for (usually 7 years) so this information may not be available at all. Just a thought...

Really hoping that Sally gets her answers soon.

Hi , Re Fernand . At this point nothing is ruled out as we don’t have enough details, but it is believed that Marion is somehow connected to his name in some way. Hopefully in the near future it might be established how that is. Maybe he is a “victim “ too.
Marion’s name was changed on the 15th May 1997 and she applied for a new passport on the 20th May . She would have to have the new passport and the name on her ticket matching. I would say she bought her ticket after the new passport arrived so the names would correspond. She tendered her resignation on the 16th June giving four days notice and that is possibly when she bought her ticket as her new passport would have arrived. She did have farewell celebrations prior to this so it seems the school were aware of her intended departure but she gave her formal letter once her new passport arrived. Also it was just prior to school holidays so there was about three weeks before beginning of a new term .

I asked Sally myself and she replied Wagga Wagga so you can take that as correct.
I’m pretty sure she was a qualified teacher before she married. I don’t know what year she graduated but she married John Warren in 1968 so prior to that .

 

[Mjjj14]

Marion’s name was changed on the 15th May 1997 and she applied for a new passport on the 20th May . She would have to have the new passport and the name on her ticket matching. I would say she bought her ticket after the new passport arrived so the names would correspond. She tendered her resignation giving four days notice and that is possibly when she bought her ticket around the

I think you misunderstood what I meant about the ticket. I mean the flight she booked to come home to Australia. I’m wondering whether she a)booked a return flight to Australia originally when she bought her ticket back in May indicating that she always planned to return when she returned or b) whether she bought the ticket quickly suddenly before she left the UK. I think it could help paint a picture of what the trip was meant to have been at the outset. Hope I’ve explained that ok.

 

[Jenmarshnifer]

Sally said in one of the podcasts that her mother wasn't particularly religious. The recently released footage of her dancing was taken at a church event, but it was her friend who invited her along, she wasn't a part of the church. It sounds as though it was a social thing.

Yes strictly social, Marion was not part of her friends church .

 

[Jenmarshnifer]

I think you misunderstood what I meant about the ticket. I mean the flight she booked to come home to Australia. I’m wondering whether she a)booked a return flight to Australia originally when she bought her ticket back in May indicating that she always planned to return when she returned or b) whether she bought the ticket quickly suddenly before she left the UK. I think it could help paint a picture of what the trip was meant to have been at the outset. Hope I’ve explained that ok.

Thanks for the clarification . We did a bit of research and back then ( and I think still the same today) you could enter UK for six months as long as you had your return ticket. If Marion wanted to work she would have to have applied for a work visa before she left which it is believed did not happen. So it could be assumed Marion did have a ticket to come back but none of this is confirmed as what happened. I think it would only be the police that could access this information. Marion told her family she was going for twelve months but I’m not sure this would be allowed without a covering visa.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

It's a good question.
There is a big discrepancy in the podcast with what happened following the crimestoppers tip. Garry says he went to Armidale in 2010, went to the address supplied by the caller- that the name was bogus and the address was right, but the people had no idea what he was talking about. Garry says he spent two days searching for the site, identified the site, organised SES volunteers, took the volunteers and a cadaver dog to the site and searched for two days. Sally says he searched for one day with the dog and the handler, in the rain. (Episode 5) Both accounts were played next to each other, with no clarification as to who has telling the correct account. Why the producers didn't find out, and edit accordingly is mystifying.

Yes exactly. Garry was the officer who organized and conducted the search following the crimestoppers tip. I cant see any reason to doubt what he says - he was there! If Garrys account of the search differed to what Sally had been told in the past his interview was the perfect place to ask him about it and resolve the misunderstanding.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Thinking about the crimestoppers call.

There's another Marion (Sandford) on the NSW missing persons register. She went missing from Sydney's northern shores (Cammeray) in 1980. On the missing person register it says that Marion's Sandfords disappearance was investigated in connection with two other missing women in 2002. Perhaps it was this new avenue of investigation that generated the crimestoppers phone call in 2002 and the call relates to Marion Sandford not Marion Barter.

 

[JLZ]

It's a good question.
There is a big discrepancy in the podcast with what happened following the crimestoppers tip. Garry says he went to Armidale in 2010, went to the address supplied by the caller- that the name was bogus and the address was right, but the people had no idea what he was talking about. Garry says he spent two days searching for the site, identified the site, organised SES volunteers, took the volunteers and a cadaver dog to the site and searched for two days. Sally says he searched for one day with the dog and the handler, in the rain. (Episode 5) Both accounts were played next to each other, with no clarification as to who has telling the correct account. Why the producers didn't find out, and edit accordingly is mystifying.

Is Garry saying he spent four days in total--two days in preliminary activities such as identifying the site and organizing SES etc, and then two days physically searching? Or could it have been two days in total, of which only one was physically searching with the dog?

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Thinking about the crimestoppers call.

There's another Marion (Sandford) on the NSW missing persons register. She went missing from Sydney's northern shores (Cammeray) in 1980. On the missing person register it says that Marion's Sandfords disappearance was investigated in connection with two other missing women in 2002. Perhaps it was this new avenue of investigation that generated the crimestoppers phone call in 2002 and the call relates to Marion Sandford not Marion Barter.

Brilliant sleuthing Intrigued, yes, Cammeray (North Shore) north of Sydney, could have been mistaken for Northern NSW. But I do wonder how it could end up in Marion's file, when the Marion Sandford was a declared missing person at the time and Marion wasn't, why wouldn't it go in the Marion Sandord file .... that's odd, isn't it, so maybe there was some other clue in the call linking it to Marion Barter? Just a thought.

 

[Josiegirl62]

View attachment 208818 It's interesting how the bank withdrawals were regular at Bryon Bay, then in the middle switched to three days at Burleigh Heads, then back to Byron Bay. Going by the ad, Ballina link, makes you think they were based in Ballina, then maybe work related had to head down to Burleigh Heads for three days , then back to Byron. Meanwhile Burleigh Heads is 17 minutes (13.2 kilometres away from Gold Coast, where the mysterious dentist was. Interesting.

Back in the day before the new freeway the travel distances were a lot longer between these places

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Brilliant sleuthing Intrigued, yes, Cammeray (North Shore) north of Sydney, could have been mistaken for Northern NSW. But I do wonder how it could end up in Marion's file, when the Marion Sandford was a declared missing person at the time and Marion wasn't, why wouldn't it go in the Marion Sandord file .... that's odd, isn't it, so maybe there was some other clue in the call linking it to Marion Barter? Just a thought.

Yes you're right it is odd. We havent heard much detail about the call so perhaps there was something said that linked to Marion Barter. I was thinking that if the call to Crimestoppers referred to a Marion but didnt mention a surname so perhaps a record of the call was put with all files with the name Marion (both Sandford and Barter files) or perhaps that the call may have originally been investigated with Marion Sandford disappearence but was ruled out for some reason and then referred to the Marion Barter investigation (which might explain some of the delay in the follow up).
Just random thoughts.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Yes you're right it is odd. We havent heard much detail about the call so perhaps there was something said that linked to Marion Barter. I was thinking that if the call to Crimestoppers referred to a Marion but didnt mention a surname so perhaps a record of the call was put with all files with the name Marion (both Sandford and Barter files) or perhaps that the call may have originally been investigated with Marion Sandford disappearence but was ruled out for some reason and then referred to the Marion Barter investigation (which might explain some of the delay in the follow up).
Just random thoughts.

Ah yes, didn't think of that, could very well be, great thinking. You know, with all the chaos and confusion in this investigation, it's highly likely this Marion you've found is the one referred to in the CrimeStoppers call; just plucked this line out of the Missing Person Register you mentioned “In 2002, Marion’s disappearance was investigated in connection with the disappearance of two other women - Linda Davie, who was last seen in St Leonards in April, 1980, and Mary Wallace, last seen in Crows Nest in September, 1983,” he said. H'mm, very interesting, the 2002 reference .... so at the time that Marion Sandford was current and in the news as a missing person from decades ago. Food for thought. Great sleuthing Intrigued.

 

[Kelliepat]

I think it must have been the listing of the alias names on the passport that allowed for Sally's friend to track Marion's passport. I don't know how the searches work, but I find it surprising that during the search nothing came up about the fact the passport was actually under a different name.

In conversations 5, Sally explains that Marion did not qualify for a UK passport. She does, however, explain that Marion's maternal aunt married an English man, and moved to England. Marion talked to one of her friends about visiting an aunt in the UK. Marion has (according to conversations 5) cousins in England and Germany (which borders Luxembourg)- I cant find them yet, but I would be very interested in knowing if any of those cousins resembled Marion. Could one of their passports have been used to leave Australia? Who are the cousins married to, particularly the ones in Germany?

I think it must have been the listing of the alias names on the passport that allowed for Sally's friend to track Marion's passport. I don't know how the searches work, but I find it surprising that during the search nothing came up about the fact the passport was actually under a different name.

In conversations 5, Sally explains that Marion did not qualify for a UK passport. She does, however, explain that Marion's maternal aunt married an English man, and moved to England. Marion talked to one of her friends about visiting an aunt in the UK. Marion has (according to conversations 5) cousins in England and Germany (which borders Luxembourg)- I cant find them yet, but I would be very interested in knowing if any of those cousins resembled Marion. Could one of their passports have been used to leave Australia? Who are the cousins married to, particularly the ones in Germany?

The Aunt now lives in Australia and has confirmed she did not hear from Marion in 1997 whilst in the U.K, neither did the cousins.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Sally has posted the following on Facebook today. I know not everyone here uses Facebook and it's very interesting so i thought I'd share it.

"This occurred to me yesterday! Mum went missing in 1997 - last known location Grafton Northern NSW The first magazine article I did was in 2004 Mum was only added to the NSW missing persons register in 2007 (not nationally) I started the Facebook page - Missing Person Marion Barter in 2013 SO! How did the person who called Crime Stoppers in 2002 who said “a woman by the name Marion who went missing from Northern NSW was buried in bush land in Armidale” know she was missing? If the case wasn’t publicized till 2004 how the hell did he know that a Marion was missing and last known to be at Grafton Northern NSW???????????????????????????? The said location in Armidale that the male gave to Crime Stoppers 100% needs to fully searched including SES and volunteers happy to help! To think Det. Gary Sheehan found it on her file years later in 2010 and no one had previously acted on it! On my stars..... no words"

Thanks for putting this post up, completely interesting. Sunday morning thoughts .... I have to say, this is a brilliant pick-up by Sally, hey! Oh boy. Sally, if you read here per chance, magnificent
How in the world did the policeman in charge of the case not pick this up, I mean, they've been to detective training school and everything .... my oh my .... it is huge .... either it was a call from someone involved with Marion's disappearance or it should have been put in the Marion Sandford file. Either way, something is amiss. End of Sunday spontaneous Facebook post thought.

 

[Mel 1303]

Is Garry saying he spent four days in total--two days in preliminary activities such as identifying the site and organizing SES etc, and then two days physically searching? Or could it have been two days in total, of which only one was physically searching with the dog?

I thought he was saying four days in total, but maybe I miss understood. He definitely said that the SES were involved though, which contradicts the statement that it was Garry, the dog and the handler. Which probably means nothing in the grand scheme of things- I just don't like the lack of fact checking

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Thanks for putting this post up, completely interesting. Sunday morning thoughts .... I have to say, this is a brilliant pick-up by Sally, hey! Oh boy. Sally, if you read here per chance, magnificent
How in the world did the policeman in charge of the case not pick this up, I mean, they've been to detective training school and everything .... my oh my .... it is huge .... either it was a call from someone involved with Marion's disappearance or it should have been put in the Marion Sandford file. Either way, something is amiss. End of Sunday spontaneous Facebook post thought.

Because the caller only mentioned Marion (with no surname) the police would have added the tip to every file associated with a Marion and also any unidentifieds in the area (and probably similar names too like Marilyn, Margret etc). That one crimestoppers call has probably been considered in relation to many cases simultaneously.

 

[Kelliepat]

The Aunt now lives in Australia and has confirmed she did not hear from Marion in 1997 whilst in the U.K, neither did the cousins.

Also the cousins look nothing like Marion.

 

[NesssaP]

Ok... been a bit busy in my daily life and have just caught up on all the new posts...

Today's thoughts... in line with Sally's... IF the tip from 2002 was in regards to Marion Barter, how did Garry find it? There was no case file for Marion Barter back in 2002... She was not classified as a missing person and there was no publicity about Marion Barter... She was simply noted as an occurrence in 1997 at Byron Bay police with no further investigation required as she was believed to have been contacted and requested to disappear and start a new life...

It is my understanding that it wasn't until Garry Sheehan took up the case that an actual file was even developed on Marion Barter...

So either the 2002 tip was someone who very obviously knew something personally and directly linked to Marion's disappearance and was feeling guilty of their knowledge and needed to release their burden somewhat (which should have created an investigation itself) or when Garry found the tip years later he linked it himself...

It would be worth finding out what action was taken when the tip first came in - was it actioned upon at all back in 2002? If so why and what happened? If not - why not? Maybe it was a vague tip and could have been more relevant to a different Marion and Garry had taken a punt at linking to it to Marion Barter...

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Okay, so I've gone back to the podcast where the Crime Stoppers call is mentioned. It's in Episode 5 starting at 20.31:

Sally : "In 2002 a guy had called Crime Stoppers and told police that a woman by the name of Marion who went missing from northern New South Wales area had been killed and was buried in bushland in Armidale. And I questioned as to why they didn't look into that and they said, 'well, we get calls like that all the time.' I said, 'that'd be fine if we'd had several calls, but we've had zero calls.' So, he fought for it and they let him take one dog and one dog handler to search an area, and it rained the whole day, and evidently they didn't find anything."

Bryan: ".... Detective Gary Sheehan says he thoroughly investigated the anonymous call to Crime Stoppers, but his checks were carried out in 2010, Sally believes the anonymous call came eight years earlier in 2002."

Gary: "The only thing I'll say is at one stage there was some information come in that Marion had met with foul play and had been buried out at Armidale in a paddock. I followed up that information and I traced the source of the information. Unfortunately it was a - it was a bogus name, but the address that they gave was a real address. So I travelled out to Armidale and I spoke to the people that lived there. They had no clue about what I was talking about. They didn't know the name that had been given to Crime Stoppers. And I went further than that, I actually went out and spent two days at Armidale looking for the site that I believed that they had been talking about in the report. I found what I thought was the site and I took out a Cadaver dog with me and I involved the SES in a fairly expansive search for two days and we came up with nothing. So that's the only thing that we've had in the whole time. And I think that information came in prior to me being involved in the investigation, but it was something that I acted upon, but it's been the only information so far that would lead me to suggest that there was something wrong with Marion, and it proved to be false."
Just noting Gary doesn't say "a Marion", he says "Marion", so that's interesting.

 

[alleycat13]

Gary: "The only thing I'll say is at one stage there was some information come in that Marion had met with foul play and had been buried out at Armidale in a paddock." .

Sorry if this is messy - first time posting on Web Sleuths.

I was just thinking about the fact that this tip mentioned her being buried in a paddock..

I had a look on Google Maps to see how big Armidale is and a lot of it seems to be rural, lots of farmland.
Although I had a look at where some of the schools were based there also and found that the University of New England has about 5 farms surrounding the school that they use for on campus training.
I wonder if Marion had any teaching contacts that worked there or could have moved there after Marion's disappearance?
Perhaps she could have stayed with them in Armidale and met with foul play there..

Could just be a coincidence but I feel like this case is filled with crazy coincidences, so could possibly be something!

 

[Meligator]

Okay, so I've gone back to the podcast where the Crime Stoppers call is mentioned. It's in Episode 5 starting at 20.31:

Sally : "In 2002 a guy had called Crime Stoppers and told police that a woman by the name of Marion who went missing from northern New South Wales area had been killed and was buried in bushland in Armidale. And I questioned as to why they didn't look into that and they said, 'well, we get calls like that all the time.' I said, 'that'd be fine if we'd had several calls, but we've had zero calls.' So, he fought for it and they let him take one dog and one dog handler to search an area, and it rained the whole day, and evidently they didn't find anything."

Bryan: ".... Detective Gary Sheehan says he thoroughly investigated the anonymous call to Crime Stoppers, but his checks were carried out in 2010, Sally believes the anonymous call came eight years earlier in 2002."

Gary: "The only thing I'll say is at one stage there was some information come in that Marion had met with foul play and had been buried out at Armidale in a paddock. I followed up that information and I traced the source of the information. Unfortunately it was a - it was a bogus name, but the address that they gave was a real address. So I travelled out to Armidale and I spoke to the people that lived there. They had no clue about what I was talking about. They didn't know the name that had been given to Crime Stoppers. And I went further than that, I actually went out and spent two days at Armidale looking for the site that I believed that they had been talking about in the report. I found what I thought was the site and I took out a Cadaver dog with me and I involved the SES in a fairly expansive search for two days and we came up with nothing. So that's the only thing that we've had in the whole time. And I think that information came in prior to me being involved in the investigation, but it was something that I acted upon, but it's been the only information so far that would lead me to suggest that there was something wrong with Marion, and it proved to be false."
Just noting Gary doesn't say "a Marion", he says "Marion", so that's interesting.

Based on this transcript, we don't have Gary confirming the tip came in in 2002. That date seems critical.