Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #2

[Mel 1303]

Do you think it could be possible that the Dentist didnt know about the name change?
If the photo was certified as a true photo of Marion Barter it might still be accepted with the passport application for Florabella because Marion had an identification document showing that Marion and Florabella were one and the same person (change of name document).

You have to supply two passport photos, with your witness writing on the back of one that it is a true likeness of ….(insert name). They would have had to write Florabella etc. Would have been tricky to fit all of that name on a passport photo! But it would have had to say Florabella.

 

[Mel 1303]

Does anyone know- it hasn't come up in the podcast, but maybe someone has seen elsewhere? Did Marion play tennis?

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

You have to supply two passport photos, with your witness writing on the back of one that it is a true likeness of ….(insert name). They would have had to write Florabella etc. Would have been tricky to fit all of that name on a passport photo! But it would have had to say Florabella.

Righto that makes sense!

 

[Itsapuzzle]

It's interesting how the bank withdrawals were regular at Bryon Bay, then in the middle switched to three days at Burleigh Heads, then back to Byron Bay. Going by the ad, Ballina link, makes you think they were based in Ballina, then maybe work related had to head down to Burleigh Heads for three days , then back to Byron. Meanwhile Burleigh Heads is 17 minutes (13.2 kilometres away from Gold Coast, where the mysterious dentist was. Interesting.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Does anyone know- it hasn't come up in the podcast, but maybe someone has seen elsewhere? Did Marion play tennis?

Ooh, tennis, sounds interesting Mel1303 ... maybe email the lady vanishes, they’ll know, they are very good at responding, most excellent I must say H’mm tennis, what are you thinking there ... just curious. .... ah well, back to the pile of ironing, hee
PS: Is there anything in the world more boring than ironing ..... err, I think not .... end of spontaneous ironing thought ... wash and wear, hey, bring it on .... whoops back to the topic at hand ...

 

[KiwiNZ]

There are certainly those out there who have no qualms with scamming someone- I agree that this would be the crime of the century and very difficult to get away with, but crazy things happen sometimes.

Marion may have been gullible and naïve in some areas of her life, but she was a hardworking single woman who had moved interstate for a new job, purchased a house, established herself within the community. Sally sounds as though she was very supportive of her mum travelling overseas for a year on her own- so she must also have been very strong and competent.

Sorry it sounded awful to describe her as gullible and naive but I did read that on something posted by a Sally. I guess I am thinking of a catfish situation where the person whom they hook can do out of character things for love.

Personally I feel she intended to come back and not exclude her family, she had stored some things with Sally husbands grandparents so would have had to made contact to collect them.

I also considered that maybe this person had threatened to harm Marion’s family if she tried to reach out and that could be the reason for her response at the bank.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

I'd really like to know more about this man. It surprises me so little attention is given to tracking him down (by the podcast). They went all the way to Luxembourg to confront someone on a fairly slim possibility but have practically ignored someone actually seen with Marion shortly before she disappeared.
Marion said he was from the art centre. Did Marion have a membership there or visit often? She was clearly attending the art centre until just before she left Aust. Other patrons of the art centre might have had friendships with Marion or know who the tall man might have been.
I have wondered if perhaps Marion hid the mans identify from Sally because he was married. This may have prevented him from coming forward in the intervening years. He might also have been someone connected to her new life and she wanted to keep him separate/unaware of her old life.

Agree, good point, this mystery fella with a link to the arts centre needs to be tracked down, or at least named .... who was the friend who introduced him to Marion? Who were her friends from the Arts Centre, there'd be a whole network there you would think. I think the podcast referred to him as a friend of a friend from the art's centre. Today's thought, maybe there was an event in 1996/97, something French, at the Arts Centre, maybe that's where Marion met a man calling himself Remakel (if she did) .... or a French themed event in Southport, somewhere local. Just a thought, might have a look through some archives might stumble across something.
Afterthought: Maybe they were hoping the Luxembourg Remakel would be a match for the mystery car chap.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

If anyone's interested, found a snapshot in Trove dated 8 October 1997 about Deed Poll name changing , just thought I'd paste it in here, it's pretty interesting. Cheers

Changing your name by Deed Poll

How do I change my name?

In Australia you are free to change your name at any time. You don't have to apply to any authority to do so.

However, you could run into problems if you have to prove your identity. So it makes sense to sign a deed poll to show that your name has been changed.

What is a deed poll?

A deed poll is a document you sign as a public record that you have changed your name. You can then use it as evidence of your name change.

There is no standard form for a deed poll.

The deed must include all relevant information the date it is signed, the place and date of your birth, your current address, a clear statement of your intention to change your name, your old name and your new name.

You will need to sign this (with your new name followed by your old name) in front of a witness.

For the deed to be legal, you must also have the witness swear an affidavit confirming that the signatures on the deed belong to you and your witness.

An affidavit is a formal court document that must be witnessed by a barrister, solicitor, Justice of the Peace, or Commissioner for Declarations.

How should a deed poll and affidavit be prepared?

They should both be typed or word-processed on standard (A4 size) paper with a 5cm. margin on the left side of the page.

The signatures must be originals (not photocopies). The court will not accept handwritten documents or documents with photocopied signatures.

Can anyone sign a deed poll?

No. You have to be 18 or over. The court will not accept a deed poll by anyone under 18. This is because there are legal restrictions on people under 18 signing certain documents.

What do I do with the deed poll?

You file it in the Supreme Court at Brisbane, Townsville or Rockhampton either personally or by post.

You may need an office copy to prove that you have filed the original deed poll at the court, and you should order one when you file the deed poll. An office copy is a photocopy of the deed poll with the official court seal stamped on it.

You will be charged a fee for filing and a further fee if you ask for an office copy. Ring the court for the current fees and postal addresses.

What happens then?

The court only receives and registers the deed poll. It does not notify any other person or organisation that you have changed your name.

You will have to make sure that you tell anyone who needs to know, such as the Registrar-General of Births, Deaths and Marriages (to add a note to your birth certificate), the Department of Transport (for your drivers licence), the Department of Immigration (for passport changes), etc.

Where can I get help with my deed poll?

It is a good idea to get legal advice before you go ahead and change your name. A solicitor, or someone from the Public Trust Office or the Caxton Legal Centre (Brisbane) may help you prepare the deed poll and the affidavit.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Let’s not confuse Monsieur Remakel’s ad with that being the way Marion potentially met him.

It’s a very good clue, BUT if a man was looking for a wife, for either romance or fraud purposes, no doubt he’d be using various means.

You have to be a pretty unmotivated to hope to find love (or victims) by placing just one ad in one foreign language paper.

Marion did speak some French but who knows if she ever read that paper?

If she did indeed meet Monsieur Remakel, it’s more likely it was at the arts centre (as she told Sally that’s where she met the mystery car man), or another place she frequented, like the dentist, doctor, school, etc.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

"Members of the family received postcards dated 30 August" .... if Marion returned on 2 August, that would have meant she left them for someone else to post for her to create the illusion that she was still there .... been thinking, then why didn't she leave a card and gift for them to post for Owen's birthday which was coming up in October .... everything unraveled when there was no birthday greeting then. If it was Marion with the passport on 2 August, maybe she was expecting to return to the UK rather quickly. Puzzling.

 

[KiwiNZ]

Sally posted that when she showed the photo of Marion to the bank manager in 97 she felt that his reaction lead her to believe that the person taking money from the account was not Marion. If that was the case then there would also be a women involved whom knew enough about Marion that she knew Sally was going to deposit the money from the car sale.

 

[Mel 1303]

Sally posted that when she showed the photo of Marion to the bank manager in 97 she felt that his reaction lead her to believe that the person taking money from the account was not Marion. If that was the case then there would also be a women involved whom knew enough about Marion that she knew Sally was going to deposit the money from the car sale.

Interesting- obviously I wasn't there, and Sally was, but when she was describing the encounter I got the opposite impression. Where as everyone else had said they hadn't seen her, he took the pic, took it to the manager, took a copy and asked if she would like to leave a message for if she came in. That to me sounds like the behaviour of someone who did indeed recognise the person in the picture.

If Sally is correct, and they saw the pic and realised that the money was taken by an imposter- wouldn't the bank have called the police?
What if Marion turned up five weeks later looking for her money? If the manager and the teller had withheld information about an imposter stealing money from her account, wouldn't that make them accessories to the crime, after the fact? They would go from being employees at a bank where there had been a security breach to complicit in a crime.

 

[Mel 1303]

Let’s not confuse Monsieur Remakel’s ad with that being the way Marion potentially met him.

It’s a very good clue, BUT if a man was looking for a wife, for either romance or fraud purposes, no doubt he’d be using various means.

You have to be a pretty unmotivated to hope to find love (or victims) by placing just one ad in one foreign language paper.

Marion did speak some French but who knows if she ever read that paper?

If she did indeed meet Monsieur Remakel, it’s more likely it was at the arts centre (as she told Sally that’s where she met the mystery car man), or another place she frequented, like the dentist, doctor, school, etc.

Absolutely. There is always the possibility that Marion had help with the plan she made (I believe this to be the case)- in which case, the connection to the name and Luxembourg may have come from a third party, and have absolutely nothing to do with Marion personally. ETA- it would make more sense if she didn't want to be found to have a name with no connection to herself, to make it harder to track. To have Marion in there somewhere is smart, incase some over attentive customs officer hears her refer to herself as Marion "Oh, Marions one of my middle names, I usually go by that name." Just to cover any slips.

 

[Mel 1303]

"Members of the family received postcards dated 30 August" .... if Marion returned on 2 August, that would have meant she left them for someone else to post for her to create the illusion that she was still there .... been thinking, then why didn't she leave a card and gift for them to post for Owen's birthday which was coming up in October .... everything unraveled when there was no birthday greeting then. If it was Marion with the passport on 2 August, maybe she was expecting to return to the UK rather quickly. Puzzling.

In the podcast, when Sally's dad was describing Owen's relationship with his mum, it sounded as though they were fairly estranged. Stuart says that they reconnected, but then she shut him out again- although there is no context here for when where or why this happened. Sally described her mum reconnecting with Owen at her engagement party, with Owen then spending time with Marion and her parents. I wonder if this is the reconnection that Stuart Brown referred to, after which something went wrong again? It is a really sad part of the story, and not really any of my business, but if this is the time that Stuart is referring to, then she and Owen may have been estranged again after this reconnect. Marion was keeping some secrets at the time- if this scenario does have any truth, Sally may never have even been made away that the relationship was fractured again. Marion not contacting Owen for his birthday may not have been as out there as it seems. Potentially, as well, Marion thought that the message she had given Sally in August, that people wouldn't hear from her in a while, had given her longer to be out of touch- including the birthday.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

In the podcast, when Sally's dad was describing Owen's relationship with his mum, it sounded as though they were fairly estranged. Stuart says that they reconnected, but then she shut him out again- although there is no context here for when where or why this happened. Sally described her mum reconnecting with Owen at her engagement party, with Owen then spending time with Marion and her parents. I wonder if this is the reconnection that Stuart Brown referred to, after which something went wrong again? It is a really sad part of the story, and not really any of my business, but if this is the time that Stuart is referring to, then she and Owen may have been estranged again after this reconnect. Marion was keeping some secrets at the time- if this scenario does have any truth, Sally may never have even been made away that the relationship was fractured again. Marion not contacting Owen for his birthday may not have been as out there as it seems. Potentially, as well, Marion thought that the message she had given Sally in August, that people wouldn't hear from her in a while, had given her longer to be out of touch- including the birthday.

I don't know, you'd think if there was a bit of tension before holiday then even more so Marion would have acknowledged his birthday with a card and gift, and some kind words from afar .... it's just odd to me, the late delivery of postcards, so why not a present .... but who knows, just putting some theories out there really.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

On another topic while I'm pounding the keyboard here ... the passport, I don't know, it probably was Marion using the passport .... I mean, they're not like bus tickets, you can't just pick any old one out of a box and use it, you do actually need to be the person identified ... unless we're moving into the world of international intrigue and espionage and the rest of it - not sure if Marion would have got herself mixed up in all that, but who knows. But with the banking, it was mentioned in one of the episodes that you needed photo ID. What if you didn't have a driver's licence back in 1997, or you said you didn't have one, but you had other documentation to verify ... h'mm, oh boy, a female accomplice .... or maybe it was Marion and something's gone wrong after the closing of the Ashmore account. There was mention of some footage they are trying to get from Home Affairs, was that going to show Brisbane Airport arrivals in 1997, that will be very interesting; hope they get all the things they need SOON to figure out what's happened, 23 years not knowing - woeful, too long.

 

[KiwiNZ]

Interesting- obviously I wasn't there, and Sally was, but when she was describing the encounter I got the opposite impression. Where as everyone else had said they hadn't seen her, he took the pic, took it to the manager, took a copy and asked if she would like to leave a message for if she came in. That to me sounds like the behaviour of someone who did indeed recognise the person in the picture.

If Sally is correct, and they saw the pic and realised that the money was taken by an imposter- wouldn't the bank have called the police?
What if Marion turned up five weeks later looking for her money? If the manager and the teller had withheld information about an imposter stealing money from her account, wouldn't that make them accessories to the crime, after the fact? They would go from being employees at a bank where there had been a security breach to complicit in a crime.

I will try and locate the text and post to this thread

 

[sunnybree]

My first time posting in this thread...

This is a curious case. There are so many pieces that don’t quite fit. From my point of view, I can understand why the police came to determine that Marian chose to start a new life in 1997, but given the time that has passed with no further evidence of Florabella being out there somewhere accessing her superannuation, aged pension, and Medicare, I question what has happened after the bank accounts were stripped.

I speculate (and I could be totally wrong) that in or before 1997, Marian met a man who became her new romantic partner. Marian was at a very vulnerable period in her life. Her work environment was toxic, I remember that some people told the podcast that possibly she had had an unrequited affection for one of the father’s of her students. Marian may have seen this new relationship as the one bright light in her life. This man may have been a controlling individual who prevailed upon her to keep their relationship a secret, not with threats of violence but using other forms of coercion eg. “I can’t be with you if you tell your family about me. Why do you want to spoil it? What we have is special.” If Marian places great importance on this romantic relationship, this coercion will work because keeping the relationship is feels vital to her wellbeing. Marian might believe that she needs this relationship but subconsciously recognises it is unhealthy and her behaviour indicates stress.

This eventually leads to the perpetrator persuading Marian that they should go away together, that they should start new together , that everything will be okay if it’s “just them” and no one else. This happens over time. Marian, who is desperately unhappy at work, possibly with some strained family relationships (at least with her son), starts to find this idea attractive. She loves the man and she commits to the plan, but she can’t commit all the way at first. She’s still in contact with Sally and sending post cards. But eventually, when overseas on holiday with this man, she is persuaded to give up contact for good. After all, she is the happiest she’s ever been when with him. Doesn’t she want to stay happy? She cuts off contact and she starts withdrawing money at the behest of this man, and transferring it to him or an account he can access. This is wants she wants too, he has convinced her. But once the money is under his control, his behaviour changes and now there is no way out.

All speculation of course, but I think a man is at the heart of this. I cannot see Marion leaving everyone behind to be Florabella on her own. She has left her life to be with someone who has convinced her that her happiness lies with him.

 

[Brejay53]

I don’t know about Australia but in England in 1997 customs werent as strict as they are now.. you could walk through customs and sometimes no one would be checking your passport. Plus it was easier to use fake passports in 1997.. who’s to say she didn’t fly to Australia with her florabella passport and leave on a fake passport?

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Interesting- obviously I wasn't there, and Sally was, but when she was describing the encounter I got the opposite impression. Where as everyone else had said they hadn't seen her, he took the pic, took it to the manager, took a copy and asked if she would like to leave a message for if she came in. That to me sounds like the behaviour of someone who did indeed recognise the person in the picture.

If Sally is correct, and they saw the pic and realised that the money was taken by an imposter- wouldn't the bank have called the police?
What if Marion turned up five weeks later looking for her money? If the manager and the teller had withheld information about an imposter stealing money from her account, wouldn't that make them accessories to the crime, after the fact? They would go from being employees at a bank where there had been a security breach to complicit in a crime.

When I listened to this I felt the officer at the bank knew Marion too. But I dont think his reaction was because he realised someone other than Marion had drained the accounts as Sally suspected. I think his reaction was him mentally preparing for a possible confrontation. He has someone standing in front of him who is worried and wanting information and he knows he cant even disclose if Marion is a customer or if she visits the branch - people often dont respond well when they are refused information.